• Welcome to SVTPerformance!

Retrofitting a '13 GT500 carbon fiber driveshaft to an '07-'12 GT500

Discussion in 'SVT Shelby GT500' started by Tob, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Tob

    Tob Salut! Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,915
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Location:
    The Ville
    Who wouldn't want the latest and greatest shaft on their earlier car? Why won't it work, as is? Who makes a kit for it? How much better is CF than steel or aluminum?

    Gentlemen, I've yet to find a resource that addresses all these questions together, and in the context of our Ford GT500's. I'll do my best to change that.

    What '07-'12 GT500 Vehicles Come With

    To start, we all share a vehicle specific, Tremec supplied, TR6060. Not perfect, but designed to handle the abundance of torque that our beloved supercharged 5.4 liter engines produce. Throughout the above time period, Ford has instituted some small changes to the driveline, all aimed at improving durability.

    That said, there have been issues. Owners have often complained that the transmission sometimes makes gear changing 'difficult.' Another issue worthy of discussion, but out of the context of the aim here. So aside from clutch, gear and shifter differences, I'd like to concentrate at the rear of the transmission. Why? Because that is the critical interface where transmission meets driveshaft.

    To wit, the typical '07-'09 GT500 TR6060. Note the flange (fixed flange to be more precise) at the rear...

    086060.jpg

    And a typical '10-'12 TR6060...

    116060.jpg

    Note the change in flanges? The question is, why? There have been clutch changes at the engine interface but the two piece driveshaft has remained. I'll postulate that the ring that encircles the flange was originally put there for NVH. Witness the following:

    The '07-'09 6060 flange assembly from Ford...

    IMG_9968.jpg

    IMG_9952.jpg

    It interfaces onto the 6060 output shaft via splines and is then retained by a nut that is threaded onto the end of the output shaft...

    IMG_9940copy.jpg

    TR-6060-073112-003-L.jpg

    The later flanges all work the same way. My interest at this point lies in why the ring was deleted. Here's an S197 Tremec 3650 and T5. Note the ring on their flanges...

    T5andTR6060forS197.jpg

    Is it a two piece driveshaft issue (vibration attenuation)? Confusing, as I see other S197 transmissions, GT or otherwise, without the ring...

    tremec3650_1.jpg

    As well as some GM versions of the 6060 with a flange only...

    1zdlmz6.jpg

    Chrysler...

    Dodge6060.jpg

    So it is a little difficult to get away with simple reasoning or process of elimination to determine why the ring was on there, respective of the two piece driveshaft or not. But the fact remains, Ford eliminated it in later years. Witness the Boss 302S 6060, which utilizes an aluminum one piece shaft...

    img_0019a.jpg

    But forget about guibo joint that GM used...

    TR6060-3camaro.jpg

    You may be asking, why the concern about the ring? Weight? In a word, yes. The '07-'09 flange assembly is more than double the weight of the later flanges. Using a handy calculator I found on the web, I inputted some general information regarding the '07-'09 flange assembly. It weighs 9 lbs 10 ounces and is almost 6 inches in diameter. Plugging in an arbitrary 6,250 rpm number in, note the forces in the right hand column...

    energycalc13a.jpg

    Then I changed the inputs to more closely match that of the '11/'12 flange (about 5 inches in diameter, and 3 lbs 2 ounces)...

    energycalc11to12flangea.jpg

    The drop in centrifugal force is more than two thirds less between the early and later flanges (surface speed dropped slightly as well). Important, because the weight that the early flange carries is at the outer diameter along with the fact that the diameter itself is larger. Thanks to islander033. He pointed out my failure to convert pounds to ounces in the appropriate input fields. Thanks brother! I 're-upped' the above converting 9 lbs 10 ounces to 154 ounces and 3 lbs 2 ounces to 50 ounces.

    Note, there were issues of output shaft breakage on the early 6060's. They were snapping right where the splines ended for the flange interface. Here are some shots of the shaft on a typical, early 6060...

    3.jpg

    6060-stock-mainshaft.jpg
     
  2. Tob

    Tob Salut! Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,915
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Location:
    The Ville
    And the failures...

    custom9310outputshaftleftcamaro6060failureright.jpg

    matingsurfaces.jpg

    Tremecfailedshaft.jpg

    And an early Ford 6060 (Harleydealer?) failure...

    Mustangbrokenoutputshaft.jpg

    There has been documented legal action taken with respect to failed 6060/shafts. A bit beyond the scope here. Suffice it to say, I don't plan on changing the shaft on mine but would like to reduce weight and the forces imparted on the failed areas if possible.

    What Was Changed For 2013?

    Aside form internal/external changes that strengthened the 6060, the critical difference was the move to a dished or 'cup' style flange along with the necessity for an increase in splines. I did a side by side with an early ('07-'09) flange next to the '13 flange...

    IMG_9950copy.jpg

    IMG_9941copy.jpg

    IMG_9935.jpg

    IMG_9937.jpg

    IMG_9938.jpg

    Note the CV joint at the transmission end (also the 'plunge' end)of the CF shaft and you can see why a cup is necessary...

    fd5c8567.jpg

    z2012-06-24_13-06-11_208_1024x577.jpg

    IMG_9953.jpg

    So How Can A 2013 CF Shaft Be Retrofitted To An Earlier GT500?

    You can either whip up a cup style flange that mimics the shape of the factory '13 unit that utilizes the early spline count or sandwich an adapter in between the earlier flanges and the newer shaft. I had seen some GM adapters made before...

    Camaro1.jpg

    Camaro.jpg

    As well as aftermarket companies that do similar things to get their shafts (CF, aluminum etc) to fit...

    carbonCVshaftclean.jpg

    Justin at VMP offers a CF shaft that bolts directly to the factory fixed flange...

    JustinspstCFshaft.jpg

    But those are outside the scope I'm considering here. I'd like to stay with the factory, OEM shaft. That's why I started looking into how it could be done. And it hasn't been easy.

    Tremec offered little to nothing in terms of data or help here. VERY secretive and tight lipped. FRPP has yet to make the leap. And while I have longed for them to do it for some time now, they simply haven't. Maybe they'll surprise everyone with a catalog update that includes a retrofit kit. Maybe not. I don't want to wait anymore, so I contacted a highly skilled individual with the capacity and capability to make it happen. After discussing the matter with him, he suggested the adapter 'route.' We discussed using 6061 aluminum or chromoly as well as using the '10-'12 fixed flange. He's busy with a couple of projects until somewhere Christmas time so we've agreed to wait until then. In the meantime, I'm procuring a '13 shaft as well as a '10-'12 flange.

    So my jaw about dropped the other day when blackshelby posted up that "The trans/driveshaft Mod is not that hard to do at all" and uploaded the following photo...

    Tremec6060adapter.jpg

    He further stated...

    That confirmed a lot. That there was ample plunge and no vibration. I'm still uncertain as to the rear (pinion) flange as I have noticed some minor dimensional changes on the '13 car. But if has done it he can probably comment on that as well. So it'll be a bit, but I'm working on it - as apparently so have others.
     
  3. force recon

    force recon New Member Established Member

    Messages:
    291
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Location:
    Destin florida
    Can I put the 11/12 flange on my 07 and drop 6lbs of rotating, I am running dss shaft, will it work???

    Thanks Rod
     
  4. 54First

    54First Grouchy Old Guy Established Member

    Messages:
    562
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Location:
    Central Valley, CA
    Well Tob, you've caught my interest.

    Steve
     
  5. acobra03

    acobra03 New Member Established Member

    Messages:
    515
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2009
    Location:
    Buena NJ
    This would be a great mod if you can make it work. The weight difference on the flange alone is huge, then ad the CF DS!!! What is the weight difference between the two DS's?
     
  6. Crowley

    Crowley Okey doke Established Member

    Messages:
    4,270
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Location:
    Texas
    Subscribed.
     
  7. black99lightnin

    black99lightnin CTSV > C63 Established Member

    Messages:
    12,520
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2004
    Location:
    Louisiana
    What's the cost of the 13 driveshaft?
     
  8. SuperLX

    SuperLX Member Established Member

    Messages:
    338
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Location:
    Ajax,Ontario
    hey guys i have a new one for sale if anybodys interested,thanks.
     
  9. svt boost

    svt boost Dr. Boost Established Member

    Messages:
    428
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Could this be the best researched post of all time? Possibly yes. Some of those photos are OBSCURE. Keep us posted.

    -e
     
  10. Tob

    Tob Salut! Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,915
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Location:
    The Ville
    Rod, as soon as I procure a '10-'12 flange I'll provide an exact weight. Suffice it to say it is about half the weight of the '07-'09 flange.

    I try. Thanks.

    ;-)

    According to MM&FF, the two piece shafts are around 39 lbs. The '2013 CF shaft comes in at about 26 lbs.

    JohnPfeifferSVTengineerand13shaft-1.jpg
    Current dealer list...

    driveshaft2013.jpg

    No doubt, Tousley can knock a big chunk off that. Still going to be more than aftermarket though. For reference, dealer list for a 2012 GT500 two piece driveshaft...

    driveshaft2012.jpg

    I've been searching and collecting data since it was first announced. Rarest of all are out of vehicle 2013 GT500 6060 shots, of which I have two. Both are from SVTP members' vehicles.
     
  11. 466scj

    466scj Old School Stangbanger Established Member

    Messages:
    852
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Location:
    alabama
    nice info!subscribing!
     
  12. BIRDDOC

    BIRDDOC Active Member Established Member

    Messages:
    1,626
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Nice info Tob!
     
  13. blackshelby

    blackshelby New Member

    Messages:
    296
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Location:
    nj
    The flange used on the 07-09 had a vibration dampener used on it.
    The purpose was to reduce drivetrain vibration.
    Is it needed....... no thats why it was removed on the 10 and up.
    Yes you can use and 10 and up flange on an 07-09 trans.
    Also a note you do not have to go out and buy a new flange for a 100 dollars plus for 10 and up flange. The vibration flange presses right off.
    Once you press off that dampener flange its exactly the same flange as the 10 and up.
    Here are a few pictures of the 07-09 and the 10 and up flange along with the weights of all parts.
    IMG-20120416-00062.jpg
    IMG-20120416-00061-1.jpg
    IMG-20120416-00063.jpg
    IMG-20120416-00064.jpg
    IMG-20120416-00065.jpg

    Tob you owe me a beer now....... LOL I just saved you at least a hundred bucks.:)

    So tremec doesn't want to give you info....ok
    If you want to know any more info about these transmissions you should call Mike over a Gforce transmission's.
    Gforce makes anything you could think about for these transmission.(any company you see upgrading these transmission Gforce makes the parts for them)
    They can do anything you would want or could even imagine to these transmission.
    They can answer almost anything you want to know .
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  14. stkjock

    stkjock Corn Powered 900 HP! Established Member

    Messages:
    5,085
    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Location:
    NY
    Tob - informative as always.

    CF = 26#

    Alum = 25-27#

    Just curious why spend the funds to upgrade? The alum shafts have shown to be reliable to at least 1000 whp from what I've seen
     
  15. blackshelby

    blackshelby New Member

    Messages:
    296
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Location:
    nj
    Many advantages a CF shaft offers over aluminum.
    Carbon fiber is stronger , lighter and will eliminate many harmonics in the drivetrain that an aluminum shaft just cannot do. (which makes it more stabile at higher shaft speeds)
    Than there is the safety factor.
    One reason Ford uses a 2 piece shaft is for rear end crashes(the shaft will just fold).
    If you run a one piece aluminum shaft it can penetrate your floor or gas tank if in a crash where the CF will just shatter.
    These reason are just a few why Ford went with a CF shaft in the 13 GT500 and not a steel or an aluminum shaft which would have been cheaper to produce.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  16. Tob

    Tob Salut! Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,915
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Location:
    The Ville
    Jim, I figured it was there for NVH reasons. I also found it interesting that Ford's removal of the ring coincided with shaft failure complaints. In my mind I was thinking along the lines of the front balancer issue for early GT500's where Ford ultimately went with a lighter unit there as well.

    What I have been trying to discern was whether it was there due to NVH issues because of the 6060 itself (in Ford's configuration) or was due to the two piece in concert with the 6060 leading to an oscillation, harmonic, etc. But with them removing it I feel much more comfortable doing it as well, especially given that changing to a CF shaft should throw all (or some or most) of the factory shaft NVH issues out of the window anyway.

    As to pressing the damper off of the flange. I had wondered about that since the moment I saw a photo of the newer flange that Ford was using without it. I couldn't tell if it had been electrically welded together but I did notice a rubber-like elastomeric ring (similar to a seal of sorts) that was in place.

    IMG_9944-1.jpg

    It would certainly make sense for Ford to simply use the base flange on the '10-'12. I wasn't sure if it would be different in any way but I take your word for it. You indeed saved me the money towards the purchase. I'll do the same and press the ring off of the flange I have. Thanks - bigtime.

    Regarding having a flange made, I did find a company in Phoenix that says they can make most any fixed flange for a custom install. They are four wheel drive based in their niche and have one of the worst websites I have ever seen which made me a little queasy about ever tapping them as a resource. I'm going to stick with the gentleman I've been in contact with but thanks for letting us know about Mike, very impressive company. If I run into a hurdle I can't clear I'll certainly contact him.

    And Jim, did you find adequate overlap at the rear flange? Here's a couple of shots of the stock pinion flange on an axle assembly I installed in my '09. I'm wondering if the stock '13 CF shaft CV joint cover will fit inside properly, index bolt hole wise, as well as it being tall enough...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    When I look at the 2013 pinion flange I see a raised lip that while not 360* around, extends the flange and looks like it is done to contain or capture more of the CV joint. What I don't know is if the change to the pinion flange was done solely for the '13 or if it was already in place in '11 or '12. Anybody with one of those years care to look at theirs?

    pinionflange2013copy.jpg

    Dave, I don't want to badmouth any of the aftermarket offerings (please don't get me wrong, as I know that is an implication that you weren't intending at all). These are small businessmen that were willing to take a hefty risk and I greatly respect that. Suffice it to say, I don't mind paying the additional premium for the OEM developed shaft. Were FRPP to release a kit I'm sure it would be competitively priced with other units for sale on the market. But alas, they have chosen not to.

    :(
     
  17. blackshelby

    blackshelby New Member

    Messages:
    296
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Location:
    nj
    I had some spares laying around so here you go.
    The weight of the 13 shaft is 24.4 pounds
    Also shown is an 07-12 rear pinion flange and how it mates to the CF shaft .(all the rear pinion flanges I have from 07-12 GT500 rears are like the one shown in your 13 picture)
    The 07-12 2 piece driveshaft uses the same style CV in the rear as the 13 shaft uses.
    IMG-20121203-00054.jpg
    IMG-20121203-00053.jpg
    IMG-20121203-00052.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  18. Tob

    Tob Salut! Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,915
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Location:
    The Ville
    Thanks for those shots. Now I'll have to look at the flange on the axle assembly I pulled out of my '09 as the FRPP unit I replaced it with has the pinion flange I showed above.

    Interesting. Thanks again.

    On edit...here's a shot of when Justin installed one of his CF shafts on his own GT500. His pinion flange looks like mine. Odd, huh?

    Justinspstdsrear1.jpg
     
  19. mustang loco

    mustang loco New Member Established Member

    Messages:
    790
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Location:
    montreal,canada
    Thx for the info Jim!!

    Great thread,info and pics Tob and Jim, thx a lot:beer:

    there goes another mod I guess,lol
     
  20. Tob

    Tob Salut! Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    8,915
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Location:
    The Ville
    I liked what I heard the owner of DSS say...

    Note - parenthesized text was added by me as I presume the original text was a mistake.
     

Share This Page