If they truly drop 400 lbs, I couldn't care less about the increase in power.
Road & Track: Flat Crank 600hp 5.4 NA GT350
- Thread starter mustangc
- Start date
we'll find out dec 5th im sure, my guess is carry over motor/transmissions initially, then possibly for the 16 model year getting into specialty models.
i doubt we'll see the turbo motor right away. I think its realistic to expect about 310 from the 2.3, it should be lighter and make more tq, not to mention have better mileage than the 3.7. That extra tq and gas mileage should be enough to convince buyers to spend an extra 995...also sort of follows the model of the 3.5 ecoboost vs the 5.0 in the F150. again just my best guess
The 5.0, will most likely be paired with the same transmission options, i cant see designing a new transmission when this one will hold up fine under normal operation (sub 6700rpm) obviously the Auto works well and a paddle shifted trans is expensive and unlikely behind a ford v8. They could reliably bump the power in the 5.0 and keep it reliable, remember they most likely will have to redesign the exhaust manifolds and change the intake setup around. not to mention out doing the base 430+hp camaro would certainly draw some attention and set the bar a little higher.
GT350, who knows...its not going to come right away, so theres too much time to speculate. id love to see a Tr6060 with an N/A 5.8 revving to 7K and making anywhere north of 550. if they keep it under 3500lbs there wont be many cars that could beat it around a road course in that price range. Z/28 should be the benchmark here, and even at 3600lbs theres a weight advantage. So all it needs is more than 500hp.
a mach 1 could replace the missing boss and could see a forged version of the 5.0 (more limited production hence more expensive option) and see 450+ but i honestly dont see them adding another model to slot between the GT350 and the base GT. If they were to do it just to bring the name back, i doubt it would add power. My best guess is a "track pack" 1LE like option.
Sky is the limit for the GT500 or monster freak high hp mustang, whatever they decide to call it. i would think the trinity motor has some life left in it, although a twin turbo factory V8 is likely considering the packaging of a smaller car...
i doubt we'll see the turbo motor right away. I think its realistic to expect about 310 from the 2.3, it should be lighter and make more tq, not to mention have better mileage than the 3.7. That extra tq and gas mileage should be enough to convince buyers to spend an extra 995...also sort of follows the model of the 3.5 ecoboost vs the 5.0 in the F150. again just my best guess
The 5.0, will most likely be paired with the same transmission options, i cant see designing a new transmission when this one will hold up fine under normal operation (sub 6700rpm) obviously the Auto works well and a paddle shifted trans is expensive and unlikely behind a ford v8. They could reliably bump the power in the 5.0 and keep it reliable, remember they most likely will have to redesign the exhaust manifolds and change the intake setup around. not to mention out doing the base 430+hp camaro would certainly draw some attention and set the bar a little higher.
GT350, who knows...its not going to come right away, so theres too much time to speculate. id love to see a Tr6060 with an N/A 5.8 revving to 7K and making anywhere north of 550. if they keep it under 3500lbs there wont be many cars that could beat it around a road course in that price range. Z/28 should be the benchmark here, and even at 3600lbs theres a weight advantage. So all it needs is more than 500hp.
a mach 1 could replace the missing boss and could see a forged version of the 5.0 (more limited production hence more expensive option) and see 450+ but i honestly dont see them adding another model to slot between the GT350 and the base GT. If they were to do it just to bring the name back, i doubt it would add power. My best guess is a "track pack" 1LE like option.
Sky is the limit for the GT500 or monster freak high hp mustang, whatever they decide to call it. i would think the trinity motor has some life left in it, although a twin turbo factory V8 is likely considering the packaging of a smaller car...
americansteel
Banned
a mach 1 could replace the missing boss and could see a forged version of the 5.0 (more limited production hence more expensive option) and see 450+ but i honestly dont see them adding another model to slot between the GT350 and the base GT. If they were to do it just to bring the name back, i doubt it would add power. My best guess is a "track pack" 1LE like option.
the mach1 will be a main stay. the N/A 5.8l will be standard in the mach1. a replacement for the boss? no such thing with out ford's intentions otherwise no! mach1 mustangs were never built for road course racing, main use drag racing with several engine, tire and gearing options. the last mach1 was a joke. the gt350 will be fords new high performance car. svt will have the cobra along with some new vehicle after the raptor production ceases in late 2016.
the mach1 will be a main stay. the N/A 5.8l will be standard in the mach1. a replacement for the boss? no such thing with out ford's intentions otherwise no! mach1 mustangs were never built for road course racing, main use drag racing with several engine, tire and gearing options. the last mach1 was a joke. the gt350 will be fords new high performance car. svt will have the cobra along with some new vehicle after the raptor production ceases in late 2016.
americansteel
Banned
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The guy that posted it is 16 years old as stated above... I'm 28. Americansteel, we have professionals that work for Ford on this board and they don't engage in back and forth banter as you do, nor do they make extravagant claims. You can say til your face goes blue but this site is pretty damn reliable and it's members know who bs'ing and who is real. There's only TWO members I can think of that are unanimously considered reliable in the 10 years Ive been here and you are not one![/QUOTE]
svtfocus2cobra im 25 years old, I build engines on the side for a mustang tuner here in central Delaware, I live about 5 miles away from him. ive been building engines since I was 19 mostly being big block fords and many being modular engines. several 5.0l and 6.2l V8's. there is 3 ford employees that that use this forum site. I give facts a few but facts about a couple subjects especially on the S550 threads, I have nimrod's on here trolling me wanting me to give them my source of information, I know several people that work for ford and im pretty good friends with a ford executive. im going to believe a ford exec over 4 magazine articles. will I give out his name? NO! and there is stuff that I cant be told. the fact of the matter is there has got be about 20 trolls on each post on this forum, I engage in banter because I have people messaging me. at first it goes how do you know this? then to ahh go **** yourself you know nothing when I give them an answer. if people don't like what I write they don't have to message me, yet people like you feel very compelled to do so and not a single one of you know anything about engines! I know what im talking about and that is all that matters.
The guy that posted it is 16 years old as stated above... I'm 28. Americansteel, we have professionals that work for Ford on this board and they don't engage in back and forth banter as you do, nor do they make extravagant claims. You can say til your face goes blue but this site is pretty damn reliable and it's members know who bs'ing and who is real. There's only TWO members I can think of that are unanimously considered reliable in the 10 years Ive been here and you are not one![/QUOTE]
svtfocus2cobra im 25 years old, I build engines on the side for a mustang tuner here in central Delaware, I live about 5 miles away from him. ive been building engines since I was 19 mostly being big block fords and many being modular engines. several 5.0l and 6.2l V8's. there is 3 ford employees that that use this forum site. I give facts a few but facts about a couple subjects especially on the S550 threads, I have nimrod's on here trolling me wanting me to give them my source of information, I know several people that work for ford and im pretty good friends with a ford executive. im going to believe a ford exec over 4 magazine articles. will I give out his name? NO! and there is stuff that I cant be told. the fact of the matter is there has got be about 20 trolls on each post on this forum, I engage in banter because I have people messaging me. at first it goes how do you know this? then to ahh go **** yourself you know nothing when I give them an answer. if people don't like what I write they don't have to message me, yet people like you feel very compelled to do so and not a single one of you know anything about engines! I know what im talking about and that is all that matters.
americansteel
Banned
the 5.0 coyote makes 442hp at 6600RPM to me that seems maxxed out for a reliable mass produced engine that only displaces 302 cubic inches. with long tube header's the 5.0 makes 459HP at the stock 6600RPM. to get the 5.0 to hit 475hp a tune long tube headers CAI you're looking at 480hp possibly and it being a smaller engine the power will peak at 7000RPM. this also depends on air temp and altitude/elevation. 90% of street driven cars do not see 6500 nor will they see 7000 why make peak power at such high rpm when the driver will never spin it that high? only 10% of mustang buyers race their vehicles. you want reliable power? the smaller engine is not the way to go, more cubic inches and or forced induction.
this is crank power.
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does anyone else see that if the trinity is going away why wouldnt ford just take all they've learned with it and incorporate it into the coyote. im thinking eb 5.0 punched out with ptwa cylinders for a cobra gt500 variant, i mean they did patent the process so it seems completely possible. and newer v engines are going oversquare anyway in favor of more reliable high rpm operation.
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americansteel
Banned
the trinity isn't going away, why would ford incorporate what they learned from it and put it in to the 5.0 coyote? technically the coyote is a better designed engine the problem being it does not have a decent size bore! strokes are different however still an advantage over the 5.0 therefor both engines in N/A form the 5.8l will always make more power. there is a 14 percent volume increase over the 5.0.
PTWA is in all ford engines from 10+.
reliable high rpm horsepower? does not exist unless a small amount of forced air is brought into the equation. eco-boost a 5.0? no such thing!
Your math is a bit off. The COYOTE makes 420 hp at 6600 rpms, the ROADRUNNER makes 444 at 7400 rpms. While the cost of replicating Roadrunner levels of performance in the coyote may be unrealistic, the point is its not impossible. Now, the engine technology is different, but the BMW m3 makes 440 at 8000 rpms from a 4.4L. Small engines are perfectly capable of making power, and modern DOHC engines are perfectly capable of revving, it would not be unrealistic to see gains from the 5.0 with very little input.
thats interesting you say that since the 2012 f-150 5.0 i recently put an engine in had steel liners. 2013 explorer 3.5 n/a i put head gaskets on had steel liners too, and all the 3.5 ecoboost engines. and the article about the ptwa process stated ford sent out the blocks to the company in germany i think it was, that does jet turbines to have the trinity blocks done. and to your thoughts on oversquare, you have obviously not dealt with high rpm v-twins
americansteel
Banned
ford does their own PTWA built several coyote motors all had no sleeve 1 5.0 truck again no sleeves although the coyote and truck 5.0 share the same blocks. my neighbor is doing an eco-boost swap into a 62 F100, found the engine out of a wrecked F150, im building it for him with livernois cnc heads and rods/pistons, that block had no sleeves in it.
a 2013 explorer and a 2012 F150? what ever
a 2013 explorer and a 2012 F150? what ever
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americansteel
Banned
nope its not off! 440-446 crank power at 6600RPM stock ECU.
^ It's almost as if he's consumed so much miss information, that he's regurgitating it all over this forum.
Or they add direct injection and increase the compression and hit that power goal well raising power across the whole rpm band. More then one way for ford to go about making their hp goals which btw most believe ford will only raise the production hp number to 450 to sit up right next to the new LT1.
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americansteel
Banned
even if ford were to bring DI out they wont up the compression.
2 V8's in the mustang.
this is not my dyno graph I have several of them laying around I will look for them later on. the 2011 was rated at 412HP how in the world can a V8 making claimed 412HP make 395HP at the wheels? that is a 19HP loss due to parasitic loss. 395 @ 6600K. crank 445 @ 6600K 50HP loss
americansteel
Banned
I don't know what the BMW M3 makes but im well aware of that car having 3 engines available and 8000RPM where it peaks with only 440HP (as you write)
lets be honest, at 8000K who is going that high on a street car? not many people are. I want my power at 6K-66K and even most of the time I will never see that nor will many others see that high. the 5.8l with similar heads/induction would hit easily 505hp crank at 66K.
I never wrote DOHC engines cant rev. any engine whether it be a pushrod SOHC or DOHC can rev high, its not just the heads, mostly has to do with induction and camming since those are the 2 key components that will dictate where power is made in the RPM range. 602CI BBF 8400RPM 1100HP pushrod engine with 2 massive valves. I love DOHC engines I just wish ford would have given us an engine with a bore sizing of 4.'' or at least 3.900". the power potential on a 4" motor with DOHC and 4 valves would be enormous. my math is not off nor is it math in the first place, the stock coyote makes 445HP at the crank with 395 at the wheels this will also very depending upon altitude/elevation and air temp.
Why not what makes you think they won't raise the compression. Why on earth would they add it and not raise the compression that makes no logical sense. On Ford's naturally aspirated cars they run 12:1 CR on 87 octane. mazda has done as high as 13:1 on 87 octane. Hell Ford runs 11:1 CR + 16 PSI of boost on the new Fiesta ST. harder Café standards are coming down they don't need a ton more hp to be competitive another 30-40 hp will do it. How could anybody at Ford possibly think it's a better idea to stroke out a motor that already gets bad MPG instead of adding new technology and making the engine more efficient in every way including gas mileage. They could make the car competitive power wise with just direct injection and the more aggressive tuning and better head flow it provides. That's if they refuse to raise the compression to the same levels the other direct injected cars runs for some unknown highly unlikely reason. It literally makes zero sense.
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americansteel
Banned
a Ford powertrain engineer explained that direct injection is NOT always a step ahead for fuel economy and emissions--especially when considering cost, complexity, and how the technology will pair with other innovations. "When the program started, it [the new Duratec in the Mustang] was a direct injection engine," said Greg T. Johnson, a powertrain integration manager whose responsibilities include both engines. But according to Johnson, Ford powertrain engineers eventually realized that leaving the direct injection aspect out of the design allowed charge-cooling advantages--allowing engineers to better optimize intake air temps for fuel economy, power, and emissions.
Typically, direct injection allows better control over knock, enabling a higher compression ratio, which does help optimize combustion. "Yeah, it helped us a little bit with knock, but it wasn't that much for all the cost," said Johnson, referring to all the more expensive parts, such as high-pressure fuel-system components, needed for direct injection. Ford even developed a direct injection version of the engine and was testing running prototypes, "but in the end it didn't make business sense," Johnson summed.
The strategy--instead optimizing the new Ti-VCT system and emphasizing breathing--paid off. The proof is in the pudding--the new Ford Duratec 3.7-liter V-6 (pictured) produces 305 horsepower and 280 pound-feet of torque, while GM's 3.6-liter direct injection V-6 makes 280 to 304 horsepower and 266 to 273 pound-feet of torque, depending on the application.
A similar story can be told for Ford’s new 5.0-liter V-8 engine, which at 412 horsepower and 390 pound-feet of torque produces more output than many same-size or slightly larger V-8 mills.
No doubt. I may have to cut the wife loose to do it, but I want both. lol
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