SIG P320 - Good thing he wasn’t AIWB.

_Snake_

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Like I said. You can’t read or listen because of your ego. Got it.

Maybe it’s ego, or maybe there’s no way I’m entertaining your flawed logic. I’d literally bet my life that if the lead starts flying I’d have a better chance than you of being around the next day to tell the story.
 

SVTdreamin04

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Even more off subject, what qualifies someone to be a “firearms instructor”? Is it state to state as the what qualifies a person? Or can you just wake up one day and say you want to teach people how to handle a gun? It seems like anyone can be an instructor in Indiana.

I see some of this stuff on YouTube and other places that just make me shake my head in concern with some of the advice given that people will actually listen to from “instructors”


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JaCobro

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If I remember right, reading a book about the Q Course, Army SF goes through the course training with loaded weapons with the safety off and are expected to never ND. If you ND then you can be dropped from the class. Also had this conversation with a long time friend of mine who was TACP with multiple combat tours as well as an instructor at PFC Training. He got tagged by a mutual friend in a video of theirs trying to teach the Israeli method and he basically wanted our TACP friend to validate his methods by commenting on his video and he blocked that person from ever tagging him again. He told me it is an absolutely pointless method that he would never teach it in his courses, and he said he didn't even want his name tied to their video teaching irresponsible methods.

To each their own opinions right. It obviously works for some and not others. The one thing Israeli method cuts down drastically is accidental discharge to a body part. Which could be fatal also.
 

JaCobro

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Maybe it’s ego, or maybe there’s no way I’m entertaining your flawed logic. I’d literally bet my life that if the lead starts flying I’d have a better chance than you of being around the next day to tell the story.
The irony and ignorance in that statement is astounding. Looks like you got it all figured out tough guy. So why the f… are you worried about me.
 

_Snake_

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The irony and ignorance in that statement is astounding. Looks like you got it all figured out tough guy. So why the f… are you worried about me.

If you're walking around without a round in the chamber, I'm not worried about you at all. :)

Seriously though. Let's talk training, specifically drawing from a concealed holster. To be proficient, you have to practice a lot. You also have to be consistent: draw, present, acquire your target, and squeeze the trigger the same way over and over so it becomes muscle memory. Use the same grain ammo in your training rounds as your carry rounds. So on and so forth. Consistency is key to being both fast and accurate.

Chambering a round only when you feel it might be needed is inconsistent and less effective, regardless of how vigorously you defend your position.

How would you handle a scenario that starts friendly then escalates? "Hold on one second, Mr. Bad Guy. I see where this is going. Give me a moment to chamber a round before we continue the conversation."

Joe said it best. C'mon, man!
 

SVTdreamin04

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If you're walking around without a round in the chamber, I'm not worried about you at all. :)

Seriously though. Let's talk training, specifically drawing from a concealed holster. To be proficient, you have to practice a lot. You also have to be consistent: draw, present, acquire your target, and squeeze the trigger the same way over and over so it becomes muscle memory. Use the same grain ammo in your training rounds as your carry rounds. So on and so forth. Consistency is key to being both fast and accurate.

Chambering a round only when you feel it might be needed is inconsistent and less effective, regardless of how vigorously you defend your position.

How would you handle a scenario that starts friendly then escalates? "Hold on one second, Mr. Bad Guy. I see where this is going. Give me a moment to chamber a round before we continue the conversation."

Joe said it best. C'mon, man!

You’ve lost all credibility with your very last statement, quoting Joe.


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svtfocus2cobra

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To each their own opinions right. It obviously works for some and not others. The one thing Israeli method cuts down drastically is accidental discharge to a body part. Which could be fatal also.

I'm not going to chastise anyone for carrying condition 3 because you shouldn't carry chambered if you don't personally feel comfortable with it, but at the same time I would never instruct anyone to carry condition 3 because I understand what happens and where you mind goes during a violent confrontation, and if you practice firearm safety you won't have to worry about an ND. If you in fact aren't training to muscle memory then it is very likely that during a violent confrontation you will draw your weapon and completely forget to put the weapon into condition 1, leaving you a standing target holding a gun that isn't going to work for you. During this violent confrontation you could be pulling the trigger the whole time thinking you are firing off rounds when that is actually not the case. What I mean by that is that your mind goes to an entirely different place that the majority of people have never experienced before. Normal logic doesn't apply as your brain goes into survival mode which means it reduces certain critical thinking and fine motor skills. A chemical cocktail gets dumped on your brain that distorts your reality with effects to your comprehension of time (time-space compression), limited auditory intake(auditory exclusion), tunnel vision, electrodermal stimulation, and mental track. Those 5 things are what will make you not do what you always plan to do and think you'll do when faced with a violent confrontation.

A lot of people will say repetition of fundamentals and firearms training is what is going to get you through a gunfight and that is only partially true. It's training to counteract the chemical cocktail that is going to make you come out on top because it is what allows you to carry out tactics and accurately and consciously make decisions while you pick your targets in a firefight. When you shoot and train to the point of muscle memory your hands will do what they are supposed to do because it is your subconscious doing it for you when your brain is trying to shut down and adrenaline dump on you causing the effects mentioned above, but you still have to keep your brain in the fight. Letting your brain take over will have you either in the fetal position unable to move or running away as fast as you can.

It's an amazing experience being in your conscious mind yet experiencing your subconscious carry out the drills you've trained for and finding out that even in the heat of the moment your shots were absolutely perfectly on target when you know your conscious mind never fully acquired the target, and that's because your subconscious mind was doing the work for you as it is faster than your conscious mind and it is pulling from the thousands of times you trained for speed and accuracy.

So with that Israeli method, they would have to train to that standard to be able to pull that off. I can guarantee you that they would not prefer to carry like that but likely have to due to stringent safety standards. When I was in RTT we started out carrying condition 1 everywhere all the time and then some other Marine in an entirely different unit had an ND with a 249 and so the base commander came down with orders to carry condition 3. We didn't agree with it because we found ourselves running up to buildings during actual security alerts putting our rifles and pistols into condition 1 last second because there is so much of a rush to the vehicles and getting everyone ready that it is easy to forget. Especially when it comes to military, any condition that is less than ideal is usually the result of a mistake that was responded to with a policy overreaction and the personnel impacted by it just learn to adapt and that can often be seen as a viable alternative when in reality no one wants to actually do it that way. I don't remember exactly how the Israeli draw method came about but I do know that the US Military, especially sof does not abide by that standard whatsoever.
 

_Snake_

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I'm not going to chastise anyone for carrying condition 3 because you shouldn't carry chambered if you don't personally feel comfortable with it, but at the same time I would never instruct anyone to carry condition 3 because I understand what happens and where you mind goes during a violent confrontation, and if you practice firearm safety you won't have to worry about an ND. If you in fact aren't training to muscle memory then it is very likely that during a violent confrontation you will draw your weapon and completely forget to put the weapon into condition 1, leaving you a standing target holding a gun that isn't going to work for you. During this violent confrontation you could be pulling the trigger the whole time thinking you are firing off rounds when that is actually not the case. What I mean by that is that your mind goes to an entirely different place that the majority of people have never experienced before. Normal logic doesn't apply as your brain goes into survival mode which means it reduces certain critical thinking and fine motor skills. A chemical cocktail gets dumped on your brain that distorts your reality with effects to your comprehension of time (time-space compression), limited auditory intake(auditory exclusion), tunnel vision, electrodermal stimulation, and mental track. Those 5 things are what will make you not do what you always plan to do and think you'll do when faced with a violent confrontation.

A lot of people will say repetition of fundamentals and firearms training is what is going to get you through a gunfight and that is only partially true. It's training to counteract the chemical cocktail that is going to make you come out on top because it is what allows you to carry out tactics and accurately and consciously make decisions while you pick your targets in a firefight. When you shoot and train to the point of muscle memory your hands will do what they are supposed to do because it is your subconscious doing it for you when your brain is trying to shut down and adrenaline dump on you causing the effects mentioned above, but you still have to keep your brain in the fight. Letting your brain take over will have you either in the fetal position unable to move or running away as fast as you can.

It's an amazing experience being in your conscious mind yet experiencing your subconscious carry out the drills you've trained for and finding out that even in the heat of the moment your shots were absolutely perfectly on target when you know your conscious mind never fully acquired the target, and that's because your subconscious mind was doing the work for you as it is faster than your conscious mind and it is pulling from the thousands of times you trained for speed and accuracy.

So with that Israeli method, they would have to train to that standard to be able to pull that off. I can guarantee you that they would not prefer to carry like that but likely have to due to stringent safety standards. When I was in RTT we started out carrying condition 1 everywhere all the time and then some other Marine in an entirely different unit had an ND with a 249 and so the base commander came down with orders to carry condition 3. We didn't agree with it because we found ourselves running up to buildings during actual security alerts putting our rifles and pistols into condition 1 last second because there is so much of a rush to the vehicles and getting everyone ready that it is easy to forget. Especially when it comes to military, any condition that is less than ideal is usually the result of a mistake that was responded to with a policy overreaction and the personnel impacted by it just learn to adapt and that can often be seen as a viable alternative when in reality no one wants to actually do it that way. I don't remember exactly how the Israeli draw method came about but I do know that the US Military, especially sof does not abide by that standard whatsoever.

Perfectly said. Thank you.
 

SHIFTYBUSINESS

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Perfectly said. Thank you.
Very good explanation. I would worry about being in a hurry and not pulling the slide all the way back then the round getting jammed. Like you said you don't have the fine motor skills in those situations.
I had a hanging potted plant fall in the middle of the night around 2am the pot and drip tray shattered and set off the glass break monitor and my alarm went off. I was juiced with adrenaline thinking someone smashed the window and was possibly in my house. So I kind of have an idea of the chemical rush you spoke of. After I figured out what had happened I was up for the next 2hrs still feeling the effects of the rush.
 

_Snake_

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Very good explanation. I would worry about being in a hurry and not pulling the slide all the way back then the round getting jammed. Like you said you don't have the fine motor skills in those situations.
I had a hanging potted plant fall in the middle of the night around 2am the pot and drip tray shattered and set off the glass break monitor and my alarm went off. I was juiced with adrenaline thinking someone smashed the window and was possibly in my house. So I kind of have an idea of the chemical rush you spoke of. After I figured out what had happened I was up for the next 2hrs still feeling the effects of the rush.

As much I would like to take credit for that post, I have to give it where it's due: svtfocus2cobra. Props.
 

JaCobro

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I'm not going to chastise anyone for carrying condition 3 because you shouldn't carry chambered if you don't personally feel comfortable with it, but at the same time I would never instruct anyone to carry condition 3 because I understand what happens and where you mind goes during a violent confrontation, and if you practice firearm safety you won't have to worry about an ND. If you in fact aren't training to muscle memory then it is very likely that during a violent confrontation you will draw your weapon and completely forget to put the weapon into condition 1, leaving you a standing target holding a gun that isn't going to work for you. During this violent confrontation you could be pulling the trigger the whole time thinking you are firing off rounds when that is actually not the case. What I mean by that is that your mind goes to an entirely different place that the majority of people have never experienced before. Normal logic doesn't apply as your brain goes into survival mode which means it reduces certain critical thinking and fine motor skills. A chemical cocktail gets dumped on your brain that distorts your reality with effects to your comprehension of time (time-space compression), limited auditory intake(auditory exclusion), tunnel vision, electrodermal stimulation, and mental track. Those 5 things are what will make you not do what you always plan to do and think you'll do when faced with a violent confrontation.

A lot of people will say repetition of fundamentals and firearms training is what is going to get you through a gunfight and that is only partially true. It's training to counteract the chemical cocktail that is going to make you come out on top because it is what allows you to carry out tactics and accurately and consciously make decisions while you pick your targets in a firefight. When you shoot and train to the point of muscle memory your hands will do what they are supposed to do because it is your subconscious doing it for you when your brain is trying to shut down and adrenaline dump on you causing the effects mentioned above, but you still have to keep your brain in the fight. Letting your brain take over will have you either in the fetal position unable to move or running away as fast as you can.

It's an amazing experience being in your conscious mind yet experiencing your subconscious carry out the drills you've trained for and finding out that even in the heat of the moment your shots were absolutely perfectly on target when you know your conscious mind never fully acquired the target, and that's because your subconscious mind was doing the work for you as it is faster than your conscious mind and it is pulling from the thousands of times you trained for speed and accuracy.

So with that Israeli method, they would have to train to that standard to be able to pull that off. I can guarantee you that they would not prefer to carry like that but likely have to due to stringent safety standards. When I was in RTT we started out carrying condition 1 everywhere all the time and then some other Marine in an entirely different unit had an ND with a 249 and so the base commander came down with orders to carry condition 3. We didn't agree with it because we found ourselves running up to buildings during actual security alerts putting our rifles and pistols into condition 1 last second because there is so much of a rush to the vehicles and getting everyone ready that it is easy to forget. Especially when it comes to military, any condition that is less than ideal is usually the result of a mistake that was responded to with a policy overreaction and the personnel impacted by it just learn to adapt and that can often be seen as a viable alternative when in reality no one wants to actually do it that way. I don't remember exactly how the Israeli draw method came about but I do know that the US Military, especially sof does not abide by that standard whatsoever.
That is a great write up. Took me a day and a half to read. Lol. I don’t disagree with much of it. We can also say well trained individuals still have negligent discharges. Like your example given, and police officers. Happens almost if not everyday. Anyway, I’m not a cop, or a soldier going into combat. Within my everyday life, any situation I see myself in will give me time to react appropriately. Like I said, I carry based on how I feel at at that time, and environment I may be in. This topic has many opinions, and many scenarios from many different experience levels. And I see how they may and may not make sense to some. God bless America!
 

SVTdreamin04

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The last few posts enforce my own personal belief that a double action revolver is the route to go for a home defense weapon for those who don’t often shoot or practice. No need to worry about chambering a round, possible limp wristing a semiautomatic pistol, a big ol’ clanky shotgun being big and cumbersome, hard to maneuver in a hallway. All of these things on top of your brain in survival mode that leads to draw, aim then shoot. If that revolver is loaded, it’s going bang with the first instinctual thing a person would do…pull the trigger.


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JaCobro

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The last few posts enforce my own personal belief that a double action revolver is the route to go for a home defense weapon for those who don’t often shoot or practice. No need to worry about chambering a round, possible limp wristing a semiautomatic pistol, a big ol’ clanky shotgun being big and cumbersome, hard to maneuver in a hallway. All of these things on top of your brain in survival mode that leads to draw, aim then shoot. If that revolver is loaded, it’s going bang with the first instinctual thing a person would do…pull the trigger.


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The revolver is always ready to go bang bang while I’m sleeping and sometimes out and about. And I’m thinking about jumping up to a 44 mag. Because, why not. Haha
 

Dirks9901

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I'm not going to chastise anyone for carrying condition 3 because you shouldn't carry chambered if you don't personally feel comfortable with it, but at the same time I would never instruct anyone to carry condition 3 because I understand what happens and where you mind goes during a violent confrontation, and if you practice firearm safety you won't have to worry about an ND. If you in fact aren't training to muscle memory then it is very likely that during a violent confrontation you will draw your weapon and completely forget to put the weapon into condition 1, leaving you a standing target holding a gun that isn't going to work for you. During this violent confrontation you could be pulling the trigger the whole time thinking you are firing off rounds when that is actually not the case. What I mean by that is that your mind goes to an entirely different place that the majority of people have never experienced before. Normal logic doesn't apply as your brain goes into survival mode which means it reduces certain critical thinking and fine motor skills. A chemical cocktail gets dumped on your brain that distorts your reality with effects to your comprehension of time (time-space compression), limited auditory intake(auditory exclusion), tunnel vision, electrodermal stimulation, and mental track. Those 5 things are what will make you not do what you always plan to do and think you'll do when faced with a violent confrontation.

A lot of people will say repetition of fundamentals and firearms training is what is going to get you through a gunfight and that is only partially true. It's training to counteract the chemical cocktail that is going to make you come out on top because it is what allows you to carry out tactics and accurately and consciously make decisions while you pick your targets in a firefight. When you shoot and train to the point of muscle memory your hands will do what they are supposed to do because it is your subconscious doing it for you when your brain is trying to shut down and adrenaline dump on you causing the effects mentioned above, but you still have to keep your brain in the fight. Letting your brain take over will have you either in the fetal position unable to move or running away as fast as you can.

It's an amazing experience being in your conscious mind yet experiencing your subconscious carry out the drills you've trained for and finding out that even in the heat of the moment your shots were absolutely perfectly on target when you know your conscious mind never fully acquired the target, and that's because your subconscious mind was doing the work for you as it is faster than your conscious mind and it is pulling from the thousands of times you trained for speed and accuracy.

So with that Israeli method, they would have to train to that standard to be able to pull that off. I can guarantee you that they would not prefer to carry like that but likely have to due to stringent safety standards. When I was in RTT we started out carrying condition 1 everywhere all the time and then some other Marine in an entirely different unit had an ND with a 249 and so the base commander came down with orders to carry condition 3. We didn't agree with it because we found ourselves running up to buildings during actual security alerts putting our rifles and pistols into condition 1 last second because there is so much of a rush to the vehicles and getting everyone ready that it is easy to forget. Especially when it comes to military, any condition that is less than ideal is usually the result of a mistake that was responded to with a policy overreaction and the personnel impacted by it just learn to adapt and that can often be seen as a viable alternative when in reality no one wants to actually do it that way. I don't remember exactly how the Israeli draw method came about but I do know that the US Military, especially sof does not abide by that standard whatsoever.

This is a thread stopper for sure. I was going to add something not nearly worded as well as you did here so thanks.

All I will say is you are at a measurable disadvantage in a self defense gun fight not carrying your gun chambered.
 

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