Suspension guys... are shocks worth it?

[SkippyMcGee]

Let me preface this question by stating that i have no interest in dragging my truck. I want to eventually build the ultimate street setup to hang in the twisties with my modded b6 S4 with ease.

I considered the hellwig sways for a while along with the hotchkis springs and leafs, but have decided after a bunch of research to stick with the TVS system.

I plan on picking up a cross brace from WMS, as well as a steering stabilizer from LFP.

All bushings will be replaced with urethane bushings, and I will eventually pick up a panhard bar.

Here comes the question: it seems from my research that the hotchkis valved bilsteins are favored for street use over the qa1's. that being said, i keep on reading that they're less stiff than the stock L-spec bilsteins. also, it seems that the entire purpose of the hotchkis shocks is to prevent the stock shocks from bottoming out, rather than to provide additional handling performance. would the stock shocks with the TVS kit and shock extenders provide similar levels of handling to the TVS kit with hotchkis or qa1 shocks on the street? keep in mind, i almost never drive the truck... less than 3k miles in the last year, and would MUCH rather spend 70 bucks on shock extenders than 500 on aftermarket shocks that will not help that much in the handling department.

please help! i want to buy suspension components asap!

 

[SID297]

Unless you're really going to be pushing the truck to the limit you should be more than happy with just a set of extenders.

 

[oilwell1415]

I only drive my truck about 1k miles per year and I wouldn't care to drive without my QA1's. Stock shocks simply can't control springs that are significantly stiffer than stock. For that matter, they struggle to control the stock springs. The shock is also what controls your entry into the corner. Once established in the corner the spring takes over, but the shock is what gets you established.

 

[SkippyMcGee]

thanks trav.

eventually i could see myself tracking it... but if that time comes (time that i can afford to track it without worry) i will invest in some shocks

what is the general consensus about the performance of the hotchkis valved bilsteins vs. the stock bilsteins? i guess it is difficult to tell because most trucks with the hotchkis shocks also have a bunch of other suspension work done.

im interested to see if anyone is running the tvs with stock shocks and extenders

 

[SkippyMcGee]

I only drive my truck about 1k miles per year and I wouldn't care to drive without my QA1's. Stock shocks simply can't control springs that are significantly stiffer than stock. For that matter, they struggle to control the stock springs. The shock is also what controls your entry into the corner. Once established in the corner the spring takes over, but the shock is what gets you established.

if i ever seriously track anything, it will most likely be the s4. i just want a very very very solid street setup for aggressive situations and a better stance than the frpp drop that i have right now

 

[SID297]

I can't really comment about the stock and the TVS shocks. When I installed the TVS on my truck I also installed the new shocks with it.

 

[chrisheltra]

 

[SkippyMcGee]

find me that for less than 1500 bucks shipped and installed and im all over it. :burnout:

 

[chrisheltra]

So 7k is too rich for your blood? lol J/K

 

[oilwell1415]

if i ever seriously track anything, it will most likely be the s4. i just want a very very very solid street setup for aggressive situations and a better stance than the frpp drop that i have right now

Even on the street the shocks and springs need to match. With my stock springs and shocks every bump in the road made it bounce up and down two or three times before settling down again. With my current springs and QA1s I hit a bump and it never bounces at all, just over it and back to driving straight. When they bounce it's because the shocks can't control the spring. On the street where there are more bumps you really need the suspension to work properly. I notice all of my suspension mods more on the street than I do on the track.

 

[SID297]

Even on the street the shocks and springs need to match. With my stock springs and shocks every bump in the road made it bounce up and down two or three times before settling down again. With my current springs and QA1s I hit a bump and it never bounces at all, just over it and back to driving straight. When they bounce it's because the shocks can't control the spring. On the street where there are more bumps you really need the suspension to work properly. I notice all of my suspension mods more on the street than I do on the track.

I don't remember my stock suspension ever behaving like that. It's possible that your stock shocks were worn out.

 

[oilwell1415]

I don't remember my stock suspension ever behaving like that. It's possible that your stock shocks were worn out.

At 14k miles? I doubt it. I never noticed it until I made the change to my current setup. It wasn't very pronounced, just a hint of a control issue for the shocks. Most people don't want the ride that comes with a shock that can fully control the spring. I don't mind it much, but my wife hates to ride in the L now. The improvement in handling is well worth it.

 

[SkippyMcGee]

i've never experienced this bounce problem. maybe i dont push it that much on the street.

heres question number 2: shocks vs cross brace if i have to pick one?

 

[oilwell1415]

Like I said, I never noticed it either until I tightened it up. The L is a lot stiffer than the average street car, so it seems better than almost everything even when stock.

 

[SkippyMcGee]

Like I said, I never noticed it either until I tightened it up. The L is a lot stiffer than the average street car, so it seems better than almost everything even when stock.

i drive exotics all the time for work (Vulcan Motor Club | Exotic Car Club NJ/NY) and a fairly stiff S4 as my daily. the L leaves something to be desired in the handling department for me, hence my want to upgrade some suspension components. my main complaint is body roll which is why i am focusing mainly on the sways and cross brace.

i am looking for less body roll and more confidence in all scenarios (corners, high speed, etc) without breaking the $2000 mark. what setups would you recommend based on these criteria?

 

[oilwell1415]

For handling the best money I ever spent was on the Panhard bar. I've also got the old style Hotchkis leafes and RUSlow 1100 lb/in front coils with QA1 shocks. I would like to add the Hotchkis sways, but haven't had the money yet. All of that should be available for under $2k, but if body roll and confidence is you only goal I would just do Hellwig sways and a Panhard bar and call it a day.

Pics of my ride in the corners. I wish I had some stock pics uploaded for comparison, maybe I can dig some up.

 

[SkippyMcGee]

For handling the best money I ever spent was on the Panhard bar. I've also got the old style Hotchkis leafes and RUSlow 1100 lb/in front coils with QA1 shocks. I would like to add the Hotchkis sways, but haven't had the money yet. All of that should be available for under $2k, but if body roll and confidence is you only goal I would just do Hellwig sways and a Panhard bar and call it a day.

Pics of my ride in the corners. I wish I had some stock pics uploaded for comparison, maybe I can dig some up.

awesome pics! there's definitely too much body roll and chassis flex going on there for me though. :bash: i think the sways and cross brace would take care of all of this. with regard to the panhard bar, i get the impression that it's effect would be much less noticeable when used in conjunction with some stiff sways and a cross-brace. i could be wrong though. that being said, im trying to decide between cross brace, panhard, or metco lower bars as the secondary stiffness-provider (first being sways).


my plan as of now is this
Hotchkis TVS suspension $995.00
Belltech shock extenders (6657) $70.00
Bump steer stabilizer kit w/ boot $56.00
Cross Brace $395.00
4.3158 Front Control Arm Bushings $90.97

Panhard bar, metco lower bars, and shocks would all be later if necessary.

Secondary plan involves:
Hellwig sways
cross brace
Hotchkis leafs
(better than hotchkis springs? ruslow springs arent available anymore as far as i can tell. what's the best alternative??)
steering stabilizer
shock extenders
urethane bushing kit

 

[oilwell1415]

To be honest, if that is too much body roll for you, I doubt there is a set of streetable mods that will make you happy. Compared to stock that is a massive improvement and is better than a lot of the cars on the track.

The Panhard bar doesn't really have anything to do with the sways, all it does is keep the rear axle centered. When I first started hitting the track you could see that the leaf springs were flexing and allowing the rear end to move to the inside of the frame on corners. That really isn't a problem until you lose traction in the rear. When the tires break loose the energy in the springs snaps the axle to the other side of the truck and you spin out. The Panhard bar fixes that.

I wouldn't spend money on a steering stabilizer. Those are to dampen the steering when running bigger tires that have more of a tendency to yank the wheel out of your hands while driving, in other words they are needed on offroad trucks. On the street they don't have much use.

I don't know what the spring rate is on the Hotchkis springs, but I know they are a lot softer than the RUSlow springs. I have the old style leafs that are stiffer than the new style by a good margin. You can still pick up the RUSlow parts used from time to time and they are worth the wait. I don't know of any other alternatives.

The best thing about the Hotchkis system is that it is supposed to be engineered to work together. The worst thing is that Hotchkis doesn't do a very good job of telling you what you're getting as far as spring rates and other tech info. That makes it difficult to tune the truck if needed and makes it impossible to directly compare their products to others.

Stan (RUSlow) did some testing on frame flex and found that the places where the frame flexes are not stiffened by the available braces. I believe that information is in a thread on NLOC, but I'm not sure. It might have been something he told me over dinner sometime.

Metcos will not help with body roll at all, they are simply to reduce wheel hop.

 

[SkippyMcGee]

To be honest, if that is too much body roll for you, I doubt there is a set of streetable mods that will make you happy. Compared to stock that is a massive improvement and is better than a lot of the cars on the track.

The Panhard bar doesn't really have anything to do with the sways, all it does is keep the rear axle centered. When I first started hitting the track you could see that the leaf springs were flexing and allowing the rear end to move to the inside of the frame on corners. That really isn't a problem until you lose traction in the rear. When the tires break loose the energy in the springs snaps the axle to the other side of the truck and you spin out. The Panhard bar fixes that.

I wouldn't spend money on a steering stabilizer. Those are to dampen the steering when running bigger tires that have more of a tendency to yank the wheel out of your hands while driving, in other words they are needed on offroad trucks. On the street they don't have much use.

I don't know what the spring rate is on the Hotchkis springs, but I know they are a lot softer than the RUSlow springs. I have the old style leafs that are stiffer than the new style by a good margin. You can still pick up the RUSlow parts used from time to time and they are worth the wait. I don't know of any other alternatives.

The best thing about the Hotchkis system is that it is supposed to be engineered to work together. The worst thing is that Hotchkis doesn't do a very good job of telling you what you're getting as far as spring rates and other tech info. That makes it difficult to tune the truck if needed and makes it impossible to directly compare their products to others.

Stan (RUSlow) did some testing on frame flex and found that the places where the frame flexes are not stiffened by the available braces. I believe that information is in a thread on NLOC, but I'm not sure. It might have been something he told me over dinner sometime.

Metcos will not help with body roll at all, they are simply to reduce wheel hop.

you have no idea how helpful all of this info is. i keep searching and searching and there is no difinitive thread on suspension work. most people seem to aim for great drag setups and you seem to be on track with what i am looking for

 

[WhiteBolt]

Have you visited Tim Skelton's website?
He has amassed lot of good info regarding preparation of Lightning suspension for the "twistys".

"Road Racing Modifications"
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