SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In With His Opinion of The 2013 GT500 @ The Nürburgring

[SID297]

"Official" Nürburgring Times SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In

An official 'Ring lap time for the 2013 Shelby GT500? SVT's Chief Nameplate Engineer expounds why none exists.http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...ghts-his-opinion-2013-gt500-nuerburgring.htmlhttp://www.svtperformance.com/forum...ghts-his-opinion-2013-gt500-nuerburgring.html

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We certainly seem to have stirred up a bit controversy with our recent article chronicling Nürburgring lap times for a few very potent Pony/Muscle Cars. In one corner we have the 2013 SVT Shelby GT500 Mustang, home of the most powerful production V8 on planet Earth; and in the other we find the Chevy Camaro (in both ZL1 and Z/28 flavors). A couple weeks earlier we posted an exclusive video of the GT500 running a very impressive estimated lap time of just a shade under 7:40, which brings us to the point of contention.

During our dissection of the Ford footage; we had 100% raw, unedited, footage we used Chevy’s widely publicized Camaro videos as a frame of reference for lap starting and ending points. That’s where things really started to get intriguing. To the naked eye it appears that GM may have been shaving their lap times a bit by fiddling with their timers. Though definitely not conclusive the screenshots in this thread are rather damning:


http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...-shelby-gt500-mustang-takes-nuerburgring.html


That brings us to an email exchange I had with Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer Jamal Hameedi. I really just had one simple question, why doesn’t Ford release Nürburgring lap times for the GT500. Jamal’s answer was highly insightful, to say the least. Check out the full exchange below:

Greetings Jamal,

How are you? As I'm sure you're aware we've been busy the GT500
Nürburgring lap video that the media group included among the other track
runs. I was wondering if you could shed some light on why Ford chose to
not release an official 'Ring time for the 2013/14 GT500? You can see the
article here:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...-shelby-gt500-mustang-takes-nuerburgring.html

Thanks,
Travis

Here's is the reply from Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer:

Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen). In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body. I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal

So after reading the opinion SVT’s main-man himself, what do you think? Are manufacturer produced Nürburgring lap times actually substantive, or are they just marketing fluff?


-SID297:beer:

 

[SID297]

Just for fun, here's a few more screen caps from the vid:

 

[magred]

Well regardless of some of the reasons Jamal stated, Ring times do show the buyer/enthusiast what the car is capable of doing.In fact it almost appears to be a cop out as to why they don't publish Ring times. You don't have to worry what the other manufacturers are doing. You just have to make sure that you are following the rules. In fact, do like some manufacturers do and simply take one off the show room floor and run it.

In other words, walk the walk so you can talk the talk.

 

[[email protected]]

There is virtually no way to set any sort of "official" lap time of the 'Ring, As Jamal stated there are just so many variables from one day to the next and on a track this size it's just unrealistic.

The only way would be to have the cars all there on the same day to test in the exact same conditions and all the cars would have to be tested and certified.

 

[Clipboard]

It makes sense...just like testing gains of an intake at a drag strip....da and weather condition can make a huge difference and can negate the effects of the intake change. I would assume this is the similar concept

 

[[email protected]]

It makes sense...just like testing gains of an intake at a drag strip....da and weather condition can make a huge difference and can negate the effects of the intake change. I would assume this is the similar concept

Yes it is, but then take in to consideration that this is a 14 mile road course through the forest in Europe and not just a 1/4 mile dragstrip and you really begin to understand the scope of trying to set any sort of real standard for record setting there.

 

[kevinatfms]

He is the man. Good explanation for the no BS approach. He would rather focus on building a better car than setting a time that could be manipulated with a plethora of factors. Hope the next SVT mustang is the same way.

 

[ITRIEDEL]

Good response. I still wish they would have just told us. Lol.

I feel the nurburgring is an honor system anyway. If the car manufacture lies, then so be it... in time it will surface by the big car reviewers. Just get out there, run it like it does off the show room floor and report it; you were already there!

I'm sure from a marketing standpoint, i'm retarded, but i'm a greedy retard.

 

[Dizzyscure1]

Good response. I still wish they would have just told us. Lol.

I feel the nurburgring is an honor system anyway. If the car manufacture lies, then so be it... in time it will surface by the big car reviewers. Just get out there, run it like it does off the show room floor and report it; you were already there!

I'm sure from a marketing standpoint, i'm retarded, but i'm a greedy retard.

There is no honor in the dollar and this is all about the dollar.

 

[DBK]

Well regardless of some of the reasons Jamal stated, Ring times do show the buyer/enthusiast what the car is capable of doing.In fact it almost appears to be a cop out as to why they don't publish Ring times. You don't have to worry what the other manufacturers are doing. You just have to make sure that you are following the rules. In fact, do like some manufacturers do and simply take one off the show room floor and run it.

In other words, walk the walk so you can talk the talk.

Clearly you missed the entire point of what he said.

There are no rules.

Manufacturers do not take a car off the showroom floor and run it.

There is no sanctioning body to prove it if they claim that they did.

 

[USNjocson]

There is no honor in the dollar and this is all about the dollar.

+1 unfortunately

 

[QUIKAG]

I wish the chief of SVT wouldn't use "lol" in an email. I know an email is fairly informal, but sheesh....

Okay, Rings times aren't standardized, but they are still a gauge for overall performance. I do wish Ford would post their Ring times. The fact that Ford and even most Porsche models don't post official ring times is pretty telling IMHO. I love that GM is such a big Ring time company. Since I do road course driving with my ZR1, I love knowing my ZR1 can run a sub 7:20 at the Ring with a damn good driver. It gives me a warm fuzzy and helps me sleep well at night just like Jamal sleeps well knowing his GT500 is selling well even if it's slower on the road course than a ZL1 with nearly 100 less horsepower.

BTW, I love the GT500. I love they can release a 650+ real world horsepower car for less than $70k.

Finally, hope this doesn't piss too many people off, but I think that GT500 track video is NOT on a stock GT500. As the GT500 overheats it's brakes within a few laps on a normal track, I think at a bare minimum this car has DOT 4 brake fluid, brake ducting, and good track pads. Not that the aforementioned is a big deal and it's very smart insurance so they don't kill any of their Ford test drivers, but it's not stock.

 

[mgmustang1]

Is it an embarrassment to post what the 13/14 gt500 can do? We all know it was built for more of a straight line but just throw a number out there let us know. It would not hurt sales as you can see.

Of course Chevy has to race it on the turns because they are embarrassed by there quarter times.

 

[95PGTTech]

I totally agree with him. With some minor video editing, it would be very easy to slap some race gas, a pulley, and a kill tune on an otherwise stock car. While you're at it, some R compound tires and racing brakes and $5000 Penske race-valved shocks. Go run 45 seconds faster than the stock car and 15 seconds faster than your rival and post it online as a stock GT500 Ring lap time. Then when no one can duplicate this time, claim driver mod.

I appreciate that someone takes the time to do some video while they are there testing anyway for their own purposes, that's all I need. Not a single customer ever is going to buy a GT500 for the sole purpose of racing it around the Ring, so it's an irrelevant bar. I just like to see the car in action while they have it there anyway.

 

[RedFox]

If you can't compete, you come out with a well thought out spin to not post the numbers. If lap times were spectacular, they would be used everywhere by Ford's marketing department.

He is buying time until the new chassis is available. This is a terrific motor in search of a modern chassis and thankfully it's coming.

 

[72MachOne99GT]

Garbage chassis runs times highly competitive to the godlike zl1, times arent made official.

what is the big deal?


We've already seen that Ford has nothing to gain by posting times.
If it's faster the excuse is well duh, it has an unfair power advantage.

If it is close it is an embarrassment considering it has a huge HP advantage.

If it loses it is pathetic a car with so much more HP loses.

Can't please everyone.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Buy 2 cars off the showroom floor, (under anonymous names) ship them to the "Ring, put the same fuel in them then let John Heinricy drive both cars and we'll find out

 

[Ninjak]

Garbage chassis runs times highly competitive to the godlike zl1, times arent made official.

what is the big deal?


We've already seen that Ford has nothing to gain by posting times.
If it's faster the excuse is well duh, it has an unfair power advantage.

If it is close it is an embarrassment considering it has a huge HP advantage.

If it loses it is pathetic a car with so much more HP loses.

Can't please everyone.

This x1.

We have already seen the GT500 keep up and beat the ZL1 on road courses. From magazines, and real drivers. We also know its no contest in the 1/4 dept. So Ford not using the "ring" to hype the car is fine by me. Really.....who the hell is going to the ring besides military members or people who actually live in Germany ? I would like to know ONE person who have actually shipped their ZL1 or GT500 to Germany to run it on the ring and come back home....

 

[Mike L.]

So I take it Ford never lies or cheats? I recall a big horsepower lie when I bought my '99 Cobra. Ford denied it then they got busted.
I love both cars and would choose the GT500 over the ZL1 in a second. I don't believe the GT500 can hang with the ZL1 on a road course period.

 

[NoVA_Mike]

I would like to know ONE person who have actually shipped their ZL1 or GT500 to Germany to run it on the ring and come back home....

Well I can name one who did and never posted a time... [Cough... Ahem]

Even if they spiked the punch and ran a time at least they'd have done it. The only reason not to is that they're afraid of the numbers. If anyone has ever lifted for any length of time, you know that sometimes guys will call out other guys to a friendly challenge. And when a guy keeps giving excuses and turning down the challenge people start thinking something's up and giving the side-eye-squint, "mmm hmm."

Not posting a time, huh.

mmm hmmm.

Not saying it has to be the KING of the Ring either. Basically, the thing is to post a respectable time. The only reason not to is because you're afraid that the time won't even be respectable. And that it's so far behind (even after juicing the car) that you can't explain away the slower time. R&T blasted the GT500 for its brakes. Ford talks about how the car runs with the big boys and can break 200mph, but won't post a ring time...

mmmmmm hmmm...

Just sayin' what some people are thinking, that's all. I love the car, but I really think they should run it just to shut people like me up.