The 5.8 Trinity Fits!!!
- Thread starter thePill
- Start date
Who cares? This isn't the 60's anymore. HP is only part of the battle and in this day and time it's easy to make. This cars about to get reamed in every performance oriented way other than maybe HP when the new Alpha platform based Camaro drops. Mark my words. Don't get me wrong it will be a good performing car, and noticeably better performing car than the current Mustang, but it's going to get bettered by the next Camaro when talking equivalent models as the Alpha platform is just too lightweight, balanced and good for a S197 based platform Mustang to compete with, especially if it gets a MR suspension on it.
It makes me hark back to the 90's/early 2000's when when Fbodies were killing Mustangs performance, and Ford was in the habit of using old platforms to build new models on, and budgeting heavily on their suspension design/setup.
So the Performance Pack cars are getting 275 rear tires? Whooptie mother F'in doo. I just need to switch camps because this shit just gets me too pissed off that Ford doesn't really care if Camaro outperforms Mustang.
It makes me hark back to the 90's/early 2000's when when Fbodies were killing Mustangs performance, and Ford was in the habit of using old platforms to build new models on, and budgeting heavily on their suspension design/setup.
So the Performance Pack cars are getting 275 rear tires? Whooptie mother F'in doo. I just need to switch camps because this shit just gets me too pissed off that Ford doesn't really care if Camaro outperforms Mustang.
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275 rear tires for the GT. The GT500 comes with a 295 tire. Still smaller, but expect the new generation to have a wider tire. Especially since the ass end is 1.5 inches wider. If the GT is supposed to be able to beat the Boss around the corners do you really not think the GT500 wont be up there as well? I have no doubt in my mind that the new GT500 will compete with the big dogs such as the new Z06 and GT-R. The camaro ZL1 will be a thing of the past.
They completely revised the front and rear suspension as well as designed a whole new chassis. There may be some s197 DNA in there, but i fail to see how its "based" on the s197?
I'm in the "Big block" camp", Point is it's only going to be a couple years at most. I think this engine would really stand out with the new chassis as to able to put power down. Regardless I'm ready to go when we can whatever is offered.
It doesn't matter. They aren't building that engine ever again.
Oh no it's going to better the current Mustangs performance on doubt about it. It's just going to get outclassed by its main competition. If the Z/28 is truly averaging about 4 seconds a lap faster than a Boss 302 LS then no it won't be a thing of the past at least in terms of being some underdog. Besides it wears 305's up front, and the Alpha platform Camaro is sure to be leaps and bounds better than the current Camaro's platform. One of the biggest issues of a S197 platform is it doesn't house much tire for a performance car of it's size, and Ford seems more interested in promoting how many golf bags it's new Mustangs trunk will hold more than they do about how much more tire the new Mustang will house. I don't see it hold very much more tire than the current Mustang. The biggest tire a S197 Mustang wears from Ford is a 285, and 1.5" = 38.1mm so an extra 20mm a side would equal 305's assuming the spread of the inner wheel wells is the same. You can look at the lines of the cars in the picture. Look at where the bumper covers mount to the rearend, or the mirror's, etc, etc. It's just a refreshed S197.
I would love the car if it wasn't for Camaro. I mean it's going to be a very good performer, it's just not going to as good a performer as it's number 1 rival. GM has a great desire to better Mustangs performance, and Ford just doesn't have that same desire to try and beat Camaro's performance.
It's not surprising. This is traditional Ford. They give you a chassis that's good enough to compete it Camaro's, and then they give you a much inferior suspension setup. They always budget on their suspension setups. Look at the Foxbodies 4link. What a POS. They don't want to spend for a panhard bar so they offset the upper control arms, and it worked like crap. Then look at the Foxbodies front suspension. While it worked better than the rear it was far from and it was primitive, outdated, and poorly place. Look at the Twin I-beams on the older F150's, and SD's. Hell will it worked well enough the S197's suspension is simple, not the greatest, and it's a budget setup. Ford should of shrunk the size of the car with a new platform, and they should of given it a traditional sports car suspension setup and not this cheap, hokey looking setup they're using on this car. Ford seems to like to place themselves in a underdog position, and then work real hard to massage something to work well, and then brag about it when they do a decent job.
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I agree that tire size has always been an issue with past mustangs, especially the current GT500. This is a completely revised suspension on the new mustang. Front and Back. Its going to handle. As for the Z/28 beating the boss, I sure hope it does. You realize that its going to cost around 85k. To compare that to a 45K car is pretty crazy. Yet the GT500 is within a few seconds to it on the Nurburgring and only costs 65K? With safety standards there was no way the car is getting smaller. Camaro as well. It wont happen.
We are not going to agree I guess. The Cadillac ATS is beating up on it's BMW, Audi, and Benz rival in the handling department. This is a luxury sedan, that won't be nearly as hard edged as a Camaro, and that is pretty much perfectly balanced and weighs barely over 3300 lbs. A current SBC v8 in a 2 door coupe will not add much if any weight to the chassis, and the new Alpha platform is much better than the old Lincoln LS platform that the Mustang owns it's origins to. Try and take your bias out of it for a second. All sources have reported that the ATS's chassis is an amazingly good platform. Ford knew the new Camaro was going to be built on this platform so they should have prepared better for it. The new mustangs design looks cheap, and heavily budgeted. Just because somethings redesigned doesn't make it great. Sure the new Mustang will handle very well I'm sure for a GT kind of car, but it will not handle as well as a modern all out sports car. People don't need to fall back on "well that's what it is. It's not a real sports car." No Mustang is Fords performance car. It's likely going to be a good handling, and big GT type car. Like when you think Aston martin, or performance Jaguar or something like that. Ever since the S197 Ford has been making the Mustangs handling do much better than it should on paper, but that starts to have it's limits as inferior designs just have their limits to where they're not going to work as well as a superior design, and you're not going to be able to massage it to when the competition it massaging their superior setup as well. Ford new suspension setup in nowhere near as advanced as most all other modern, performance orient, RWD cars. Fords new Suspension setup looks so shortcutted it ridiculous.
If you asked Ford I'm sure they'll claim that why they didn't go with a more traditional sport car suspension setup is because it's a little heavier or whatever, but trust me the real reason is because they're cheap, and they realized that they can better their benchmark Boss 302's handling with this setup, but it's far from the greatest performance car suspension design I've seen. The sad thing is when talking Mustang Ford tries to better themselves where GM tries to better Ford and that's why Camaro is traditional a better performance car than Mustang.
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You should go with the Camaro. I am sure that it will offer the level of performance that you deserve.
Ford isnt "cheap," they're a business, one that IS budgeted. The camaro doesnt exactly have a clean sweep of the mustang lineup either, Ford has its share of wins in various head to head comparisons. Also, the current camaro in almost any trim costs an appreciable amount more than its direct competitor mustang. Do you get a better platform? its arguable, depends on what you're using it for. Do you get a better value? doubt it.
Mustang interiors have always been lacking, and i am a mustang die hard, but its a hard fact to ignore. Now, with this redesign, Ford had an option: Dump every bit of R&D into the suspension and make this car purpose built. Or, spend it on the whole car, bringing the whole package up to date. I have a day job, spend most of my time driving to work, will bomb back roads on the weekends and have the occasional pick up race. I want my car to perform, but more importantly i do NOT want a chevrolet grade interior when i spend most of my time just driving to and from work ... everything other than the C7 (a $60k car mind you...) is just garbage. Im not someone who's ass needs to touch leather and should be driving a mercedes, but if i'm dropping 40k or so on a car theres a certain degree i expect.
Say what you want about the alpha platform being better, it may very well be, but i promise in the hands of average joe(s) that no one will be able to drive these cars hard enough to know the difference.
Mustang interiors have always been lacking, and i am a mustang die hard, but its a hard fact to ignore. Now, with this redesign, Ford had an option: Dump every bit of R&D into the suspension and make this car purpose built. Or, spend it on the whole car, bringing the whole package up to date. I have a day job, spend most of my time driving to work, will bomb back roads on the weekends and have the occasional pick up race. I want my car to perform, but more importantly i do NOT want a chevrolet grade interior when i spend most of my time just driving to and from work ... everything other than the C7 (a $60k car mind you...) is just garbage. Im not someone who's ass needs to touch leather and should be driving a mercedes, but if i'm dropping 40k or so on a car theres a certain degree i expect.
Say what you want about the alpha platform being better, it may very well be, but i promise in the hands of average joe(s) that no one will be able to drive these cars hard enough to know the difference.
I love all the smoke in here..........The new Camaro WILL be better......blah blah blah. Give me a break. There are no concrete details about what GM is doing with the Camaro. Ford isnt even releasing the 5.0 with direct injection yet. I think they are waiting for GM to make their move so they can just turn around and crush them like they did with the gt500.
Ok, so the 15 GT (while obviously a large improvement over the outgoing GT and boss) isn't good enough because it's going to get smoked by the z/28 which will cost twice as much. Got it. SVT has no Z/28 competitor and the platform is a failure because it is still compromised to support a 22-24K low end configuration that accounts for the majority of its sales therefor funding and justifying the development of the hipo models. Thanks for showing me the light.
Well now your just being a smart ass and taking what I'm saying totally out of context.
I've bled blue my whole life, but basically it boils down to this if I'm honest with myself. Ford is just not a performance car company where GM very much is so. Ford is a truck company which is great, and the F-Series line is the best trucks, and I have no doubt that the next F150 will better the new GM twins. As far as performance cars go Ford could care less about anything but sales where GM take pride in trying to best it's competition. This is a sad truth for Ford enthusiast. The problem is it's not working for them as Camaro sale dominate Mustang sale. The thing I hate complaining about is is that Mustang is very good even in it's current forum, the problem is is that it's just not as good(performance wise) as it's main competition. Ford need to realize that Mustang is it's only legit performance car. GM is about to have 2 performance cars that best it's very best. That is not good to let your main rival do that. It's been know that the next Camaro will be Alpha platform based, and Fords had enough time to study it attributes. Ford is half stepping with this car. Ford is not in a financial hole. They should of started fresh instead of using a old, heavy platform as the basic for a new 50th Anniversary car. They need to quit worrying about the passengers, and cargo space, and whatnot if this is their performance car. Performance cars are about compromising other aspects in the name of performance, and if the car will hold 2 golf bags in the trunk then a true performance enthusiast(who Ford needs to worry about more than non brand loyal golfers) could give a shit. I doubt people buying GTR's really give 2 shits whether the trunk will hold 2 golf bags.
Y'all keep talking about the Z/28 being a better track car than a Mustang and that it should be. Well yeah it very much should be, but a SS with a 1LE package that doesn't even use MR suspension is a faster lapping car the a Boss 302 LS. And I guarantee that the Gen6 Camaro will be much better than a Gen5.
Look y'all I apologize. Y'all want to love the new Mustang and you should. I'm sure it's a very nice car that will be noticeably improved on. I love Mustang and I desire for them to be so good. I loved the 03/04 Cobra when they came out because they bested their Chevy competition the same way they did with the 2011 GT, and 2012 Boss 302, but I just know this car is going to be inferior to the next model Camaro's performance and I don't see it getting best in terms of potential until a total platform redesign. I feel it in my bones. It's not even a question in my mind. Like I said for Ford to compete competitively with the next Camaro's performance then they needed to start fresh, they needed to shrink the car, and they need to understand that a performance vehicle is about compromising all other thing in the sake of performance.
the mustang has nothing to worry about when the new CRAPMARO comes out.we all know,that all of the hype Garbage Motors put out about the zl1 was all talk.owners that had or have the zl1 were saying that the car wasnt as fast as gm claimed.the regular mustang gt beat the camaro ss in the handling department,them gm did a 1le package.im not sure that it is faster.maybe,maybe not.at the 'RING,they said the zl1 was faster,and we found out that the GT500 IS faster.as far as the z28,the car that was used,i think its just another ringer car to put up a good number to try to help sell cars that will not perform like the ringer car.now,at leguna seca,there was a zl1 that did a 1:39.18,and a BOSS LS did a 1:39.50.when things are 100% legit,the mustang is KING of the muscle car wars.
I agree in alot of your points, but I dont believe its all doom and gloom. The S550 platform is all new, its not an evolution of the S197. Also, there is no guarantee that the Camaro will get all the same parts to make it lighter such as the Cadi Alpha offering. Also, how much does the Alpha based Cadi cost? There are too many variables as of right now.
I will admit tho that I dont know shit about suspension set ups regarding fords new IRS and redesigned front suspension. I would need more specifics to get a clearer picture as to why the Alpha suspension is so superior. You talk of Alpha beating BMW's and such, but did you forget the lowly GT with a solid axle matched the M3? Dont hold the german's on such a high pedistal, let things get sorted out first IMHO.
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1st , the LS1 was lightyears better in performance than the 4.6 and that is the only thing that propped the gen4 F-bodies up in that era. The LS? will have no advantage over the Coyote so it will come down to power to weight ratio and the Camaro already has a ton of ground to make up.
2nd , those early 2000's F-bodies were so good that they went extinct for 8 years while the Mustang went on to sell a million more units.
3rd , Nurburgring lap times mean dick. the current Mustang handles better than 99% of people are capable of extracting from the car. the Mustang needs its handling/ride refined and Ford is addressing that.
the total package will decide the winner. whichever company gets the mix right will come out on top...it's a bit premature to pronounce Chevy the winner , but if they do build the better car I will have no problem buying one.
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