Those interested in the new GT500,....

[Fourcam380]

Nice to see a few familiar faces around here

The '18 GT500 is the first domestic car I've seen in a while that has my undivided attention. I've waited a long time to say that again. TT DI/PFI V8 with 10A Please!

As much as I'd love to see a 7.0L 4v V8 in a Mustang, it doesn't make sense as far as development costs, not amortizing most of the VooDoo, or simply slapping twins on the 5.0L Coyote--which would net much better fuel economy and make significantly more HP/TQ.

Agreed with whoever said 5.0L TT V8 is the sole determining factor of how great this car will be. I'd say 5.2L but I'll take the extra meat between bores of the standard coyote as a safeguard for lots of boost later.

As far as the FPC vs CPC argument, F488 ECU tune only dyno below. 3.9L 4V DI TT V8 (conventional, not an assbackwards hot-v) from the factory. Ferrari vs Ford, not the same crank or engine, but obviously they aren't going to change anything in the bottom end to increase HP/TQ over the next few years...

 

[Fourcam380]

Been out of the game for a minute, what's the stroke of a VooDoo compared to a Coyote and what displacement would it make (if longer stroke) used in an existing Coyote block?

A: 93mm Voodoo vs 92.2mm Coyote, thanks google.

Would be an actual 5.0L in displacement, lower recip. mass, spool faster, still keep meat between bores and sound like a GT350 to confuse journalists (for now).

 

[tmhutch]

As much as I'd love to see a 7.0L 4v V8 in a Mustang, it doesn't make sense as far as development costs, not amortizing most of the VooDoo, or simply slapping twins on the 5.0L Coyote--which would net much better fuel economy and make significantly more HP/TQ.View attachment 86550

It's already done. It's going in the heavy duty truck line. Change the intake manifold and cam timing and it's ready for the Mustang.

 

[Fourcam380]

It's already done. It's going in the heavy duty truck line. Change the intake manifold and cam timing and it's ready for the Mustang.

Hey Todd (unless it's Tim, damn memory)

7.0L Boss based 4v or 2v?

Fe or Al block?

Regardless it's not going to make 700hp+ NA via Ford (which the gt500 will need, at least) on pump gas and fuel economy would be dismal (not that I care)--a tt coyote variant could hit that number or more with superior fuel Econ.

Even a PD blown 5.0-5.2l has more HP potential than the 7.0l NA.

All that said I'm all for a Boss 429.

 

[Fourcam380]

It's already done. It's going in the heavy duty truck line. Change the intake manifold and cam timing and it's ready for the Mustang.

From what I can see on the net presently it's still going to be a 2v Fe block truck motor.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tmhutch]

I don't know the details but I want to assume the best. The article below tells us that a 7.X L engine is already done and it has more torque and better fuel efficiency that the smaller 6.8L V10. The V10 is inherently a more efficient design and there's nothing you can't do to a V10 to increase efficiency that you cant do to a V8 (DI, VCT, Tuned Runner Lengths etc.). That only leaves one avenue for increased efficiency from a less efficient architecture sporting more cubes: 4 Valves.

Now, maybe Ford is fudging the stats and their new "efficient" design is some universally applicable tuning variable but come on, with Chevrolet introducing their big 4 valve engine and Toyota already running 4 valve V8's in their pickups, why would Ford go backwards? It just doesnt make any sense.

Ford to announce Ontario engine program in boost to Canada automaking

Trudeau, Ontario's Wynne will also be on hand

March 29, 2017 @ 2:05 pm
Allison Lampert and Nick Carey
Reuters

UPDATED: 3/30/17 6:38 am ET - new story
MONTREAL/DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. plans to announce production of a new engine in Windsor, Ontario, two sources familiar with the matter said, in an investment that would boost Canada's auto industry after years of job losses to Mexico and the U.S.

The sources told Reuters the 7X engine, for large pickup trucks, is to be announced with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at the Ford Essex Engine Plant in Windsor on Thursday morning.

Joe Hinrichs, Ford's president of the Americas, and Mark Buzzell, CEO of Ford of Canada, also will be on hand, the automaker said in a notice. No details were provided.

During 2016 contract negotiations with Canadian union Unifor, Ford pledged to spend $700 million on its Ontario manufacturing operations. The lion’s share of the money was earmarked for a “major engine program” at the Essex Engine Plant. The promised new engine program fulfilled a key goal for the union, which had sought investments from each of the Detroit 3 automakers last fall.

Spokesmen for Ford and Trudeau declined to comment.

In addition to Trudeau, Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne will be on site, according to a spokeswoman from Edelman, a public relations firm working for the province of Ontario.

They will also be part of an announcement “related to autonomous vehicles,” an advisory from Edelman said, without providing details.

More torque

Brian Maxim, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions, said in a telephone interview that the 7.0-liter, V8 engine would have more torque and be more fuel efficient than the 6.8-liter V10 engine now built in Windsor and used in Ford's super-duty trucks, such as its F-250s.

Maxim said he expected Ford to produce about 125,000 units of the new engine per year, starting in 2019.

New investment in engine production in Canada was seen as vital because the large V8 and V10 motors now built by Ford in Windsor were expected to end production in four years.

Between 2001 and 2013, some 14,300 jobs were lost in vehicle manufacturing in Canada, according to Hamilton's Automotive Policy Research Center.

Unifor Local 200 President Chris Taylor, who spent much of Wednesday in meetings with Ford management, would only tell Automotive News Canada that the Ford announcement “is good news for our site.”

About 800 employees at the Essex factory currently build 5.0-liter V-8 engines. Next door, at the Windsor Engine Plant, about 600 workers build the 6.8-liter V-10 engines.

Greg Layson of Automotive News Canada contributed to this report.

Contact Automotive News

 

[Fourcam380]

I don't know the details but I want to assume the best. The article below tells us that a 7.X L engine is already done and it has more torque and better fuel efficiency that the smaller 6.8L V10. The V10 is inherently a more efficient design and there's nothing you can't do to a V10 to increase efficiency that you cant do to a V8 (DI, VCT, Tuned Runner Lengths etc.). That only leaves one avenue for increased efficiency from a less efficient architecture sporting more cubes: 4 Valves.

Now, maybe Ford is fudging the stats and their new "efficient" design is some universally applicable tuning variable but come on, with Chevrolet introducing their big 4 valve engine and Toyota already running 4 valve V8's in their pickups, why would Ford go backwards? It just doesnt make any sense.

Ford to announce Ontario engine program in boost to Canada automaking

Trudeau, Ontario's Wynne will also be on hand

March 29, 2017 @ 2:05 pm
Allison Lampert and Nick Carey
Reuters

UPDATED: 3/30/17 6:38 am ET - new story
MONTREAL/DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. plans to announce production of a new engine in Windsor, Ontario, two sources familiar with the matter said, in an investment that would boost Canada's auto industry after years of job losses to Mexico and the U.S.

The sources told Reuters the 7X engine, for large pickup trucks, is to be announced with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at the Ford Essex Engine Plant in Windsor on Thursday morning.

Joe Hinrichs, Ford's president of the Americas, and Mark Buzzell, CEO of Ford of Canada, also will be on hand, the automaker said in a notice. No details were provided.

During 2016 contract negotiations with Canadian union Unifor, Ford pledged to spend $700 million on its Ontario manufacturing operations. The lion’s share of the money was earmarked for a “major engine program” at the Essex Engine Plant. The promised new engine program fulfilled a key goal for the union, which had sought investments from each of the Detroit 3 automakers last fall.

Spokesmen for Ford and Trudeau declined to comment.

In addition to Trudeau, Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne will be on site, according to a spokeswoman from Edelman, a public relations firm working for the province of Ontario.

They will also be part of an announcement “related to autonomous vehicles,” an advisory from Edelman said, without providing details.

More torque

Brian Maxim, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions, said in a telephone interview that the 7.0-liter, V8 engine would have more torque and be more fuel efficient than the 6.8-liter V10 engine now built in Windsor and used in Ford's super-duty trucks, such as its F-250s.

Maxim said he expected Ford to produce about 125,000 units of the new engine per year, starting in 2019.

New investment in engine production in Canada was seen as vital because the large V8 and V10 motors now built by Ford in Windsor were expected to end production in four years.

Between 2001 and 2013, some 14,300 jobs were lost in vehicle manufacturing in Canada, according to Hamilton's Automotive Policy Research Center.

Unifor Local 200 President Chris Taylor, who spent much of Wednesday in meetings with Ford management, would only tell Automotive News Canada that the Ford announcement “is good news for our site.”

About 800 employees at the Essex factory currently build 5.0-liter V-8 engines. Next door, at the Windsor Engine Plant, about 600 workers build the 6.8-liter V-10 engines.

Greg Layson of Automotive News Canada contributed to this report.

Contact Automotive News

Thanks for posting.

Granted it's been a minute but IIRC the Boss series of engines could be taken out past 7.5L which is great. Downside is they were iron block, PFI and the heads looked like giant PI 2Vs from a 4.6L--not great for performance.

Other than a few concept powerplants, IIRC the 6.8L V10 never got 4v heads, just the same 3V heads used on the 4.6/5.4L which were inherently inefficient due to the poor port angles due to packaging constraints in varying models. Add to it the small 3.54" bore and giant 4.165" stroke, meaning tiny valves for a relatively large motor which hurts N/A applications especially badly. No DOD, and rudimentary VCT also didn't help fuel economy, a low static C/R added to the inefficiency, and again from what I remember the intake manifolds sucked on these things as well.

Honestly based on the above you'd be hard pressed not to bring to life an engine more than 10 years after the release of the 3v 6.8L V10 that wasn't more efficient, powerful, etc without trying.

All that taken into account, other than having to shoehorn this engine in a Mustang (and throwing off the weight balance to a huge degree by doing so) it's not going to hit 700HP N/A production wise even with 4v heads and all the latest N/A trickery without FI. Since FI can be applied to existing 5.0-5.2L designs to meet HP/TQ goals as well as emissions and meet fuel economy wants, it just makes significantly more sense.

Allow me to wrap by saying I would love a N/A 7.0L anything in a new Stang or SE variant. Historically, as everyone here knows we blue bleeders have always been down in the CID department to the bowtie guys, I still can't believe they put a V6 in the Ford GT...

I guess the good news, which you hinted at, is that the Zora Vette is supposed to have a DOHC 6.2L with and without FI in case Ford doesn't pull through which I'm obviously hoping isn't the case. Light + Aerodynamic + 10A + 6.2L 4V = something that can run with the Euro guys up top. Yes please.

 

[Eatonualive281]

There is no reason Ford couldn't apply their ecoboost philosophy to these new "big blocks". And IF one ever ended up in a mustang I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that'd it'd be aluminum. Or just put a blower on it.

 

[Fourcam380]

There is no reason Ford couldn't apply their ecoboost philosophy to these new "big blocks". And IF one ever ended up in a mustang I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that'd it'd be aluminum. Or just put a blower on it.

The reason not to would be it just isn't needed. Ford isn't Chiron hunting, and cost is still their min concern, as is any oem. "Ecoboost" was chose by marketing to be representative of modern powerplants that make HP with efficiency (even though they suck as much gas as anyone else's v8s).

The Boss engines were always destined for trucks not Stang's.

It's a nice thought, an Al 7.0-7.5l 4v v8 ina mustang with or without FI, but it ain't gonna happen. Too overkill and CAFE regs look to have a diff ramp rate but still end up at dumb levels in the near future.

Would have been neat to see this in the new GT vs a v6, but that would have cost too much $ for such a limited production vehicle. Amortizing that v8 would just bury ford via CAFE.

 

[Fourcam380]

One other note reg the 6.8 v10. With 90 degree vee it would have required a much nicer crank to spin to 6000rpm reliably without shaking itself to death. Bmws s85 v10 had a 90 degree vee also but the crank was metallic art which is why it spun past 8000rpm stock with no issue.

 

[AustinSN]

One other note reg the 6.8 v10. With 90 degree vee it would have required a much nicer crank to spin to 6000rpm reliably without shaking itself to death. Bmws s85 v10 had a 90 degree vee also but the crank was metallic art which is why it spun past 8000rpm stock with no issue.

"Stock with no issue"

I can't think of a less reliable engine.. I pulled 2 apart last month. First engine didn't make it 30k miles before it needed a bottom end, second one made it 35k before it consumed a piston.

 

[GTSpartan]

One other note reg the 6.8 v10. With 90 degree vee it would have required a much nicer crank to spin to 6000rpm reliably without shaking itself to death. Bmws s85 v10 had a 90 degree vee also but the crank was metallic art which is why it spun past 8000rpm stock with no issue.

IIRC, the Ford V10 has a balance shaft to deal with said vibrations.

 

[Fourcam380]

"Stock with no issue"

I can't think of a less reliable engine.. I pulled 2 apart last month. First engine didn't make it 30k miles before it needed a bottom end, second one made it 35k before it consumed a piston.

There are manufacturing defects with any mass produced item. Component quality issues. Not design defects.

As far as a design defect. No.

 

[Fourcam380]

IIRC, the Ford V10 has a balance shaft to deal with said vibrations.

I don't recall seeing one reg over 5k either way and I'd rather deal with that via crank if possible. Regardless no one will ever mistake a triton v10 for anything other than a boat anchor. It epitomized all the downfalls of modular architecture on a large scale.

 

[fitforspeed]

Just my two cents but I don't see Ford using the 5.2 voodoo in the GT500, maybe 5.2 conventional crank. I think it makes sense $ wise for Ford to just use the existing 5.0 Aluminator short block with the 5.2 heads. Twins would be nice, but who's really going to complain if it Only gets the new Eaton Tvs 2.65ltr? Not me. Either way I'm sure it will be a blast to drive! And if it gets all wheel drive that could be adjusted to rear only drive like the Focus RS then wow, some serious butt kickings will be handed out to the Competition. And of course the option for the new 10speed auto or traditional 6 speed do it yourself. I hope we will see soon enough, hoping it drops in New York at the show. Will I buy one? We'll have to see. Until then I will just keep enjoying the 03 Cobra and the 16 Hellcat.

 

[DepWraith]

Not gonna be AWD, won't fit in this platform. Most likely 5.2 with TVS and conventional plank as TT was too much $$$ to meet price point. Definitely the 10 auto though.

 

[Eatonualive281]

Im all for HP but a 5.2 with a tvs seems boring to me. Im sure whatever it is will be bad ass but you could go out and buy a coyote and slap a blower on it. The SVT cars always had something unique to them. I get that its a 5.2 but you can already buy that from frpp. I dont know, maybe im expecting too much at this point.

 

[Fourcam380]

Im all for HP but a 5.2 with a tvs seems boring to me. Im sure whatever it is will be bad ass but you could go out and buy a coyote and slap a blower on it. The SVT cars always had something unique to them. I get that its a 5.2 but you can already buy that from frpp. I dont know, maybe im expecting too much at this point.

Couldn't agree more. Another PD blown moderate displacement v8 will just get lost in the crowd for me.

 

[DepWraith]

I too agree it would be boring and am really hoping that the info I got about the TT being cancelled was wrong.

 

[PowerWheels]

Sounds boring, but with the better suspension and anything north of 650 it will rock!