What Injectors are you running?

badcobra

It's Fast
Established Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Messages
2,515
Location
Mpls/St Paul, MN
This has sparked my attention greatly. What are some of the advantages to doing this?
The list of advantages is endless. Closed loop fueling control being the main one. You set a target A/F and the Holley uses the wideband and MAP sensors to correct fueling to obtain desired A/F. You can set multiple safeties to shut the car down in case something bad happens. You can run nearly any injector you want. No MAF. You can datalog every run and download all your logs and review. You can set up traction control, rev limits, two step. Literally the possibilities are endless.

As for gas on Bosch 210's, you can run gas so long as it doesn't have MTBE in it. Some race fuels such as Q16 has MTBE in it and will damage those injectors.
 

OSU34

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
347
This all depends on your goals. What are they? Sure you can spend the extra money to get the biggest injectors and triple pumps but for a goal of 800 it’s not necessary. I ran 95lb DWs and the car would fall on its face like it lost spark when doing a dig. That was with a KB 2.2 on pump.
 

03' White Snake

Well-Known Member
Established Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
3,790
Location
Mass
Setting your base at 60 psi is a bandaid because your injectors are too small.

You would be stupid to try to make 1000cc injectors work at 1000HP.

--Joe

Thanks Joe. I said raising base pressure would make a smaller injector act like a larger injector. That is what I was doing with 80’s. I have since lowered my pressure with the 1050’s.

If I ever push my car to 1000hp I’ll let you know how the injectors do.
 

01yellercobra

AKA slo984now
Established Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
21,126
Location
Cali
This all depends on your goals. What are they? Sure you can spend the extra money to get the biggest injectors and triple pumps but for a goal of 800 it’s not necessary. I ran 95lb DWs and the car would fall on its face like it lost spark when doing a dig. That was with a KB 2.2 on pump.
That sounds like a tune issue. Not the injectors.
 

NoLimitRacing

Member
Established Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2018
Messages
115
Location
So Cal
The Bosch 210's are labeled for propane I believe. But lots of people run them with gas with no issue.

The 210's are low impedance. They flow the same as the ID2000's, but they're not the same injector. You either need to swap to a stand alone or run an injector driver. They're not plug and play with the stock ECU.
I see said the blind man haha, ok well I am open to running a standalone system
The list of advantages is endless. Closed loop fueling control being the main one. You set a target A/F and the Holley uses the wideband and MAP sensors to correct fueling to obtain desired A/F. You can set multiple safeties to shut the car down in case something bad happens. You can run nearly any injector you want. No MAF. You can datalog every run and download all your logs and review. You can set up traction control, rev limits, two step. Literally the possibilities are endless.

As for gas on Bosch 210's, you can run gas so long as it doesn't have MTBE in it. Some race fuels such as Q16 has MTBE in it and will damage those injectors.
Ok that makes sense, so these stand alone systems advertise plug and play, does that mean they do not require custom tuning?
 

OSU34

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
347
That sounds like a tune issue. Not the injectors.
That certainly could have been a part the reason. But another part of the reason was running too big of injectors and you just can’t tune around it. All I’m saying is that I experienced it and it’s something to be cautious of.
 

01yellercobra

AKA slo984now
Established Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
21,126
Location
Cali
I see said the blind man haha, ok well I am open to running a standalone system

Ok that makes sense, so these stand alone systems advertise plug and play, does that mean they do not require custom tuning?
The plug and play part refers to the stand alone replacing the stock ECU. Usually when switching to a stand alone a new harness is required. With a set up like the MS3 you unplug the stock ECU and plug the MS3 in it's place. I would recommend at least adding dual widebands though. It will still need to be tuned as each combo is different, but it's not as bad as something like SCT IMO.
That certainly could have been a part the reason. But another part of the reason was running too big of injectors and you just can’t tune around it. All I’m saying is that I experienced it and it’s something to be cautious of.
If that was the case then the guys running the 210's would have the same issue. I'm 99% sure your issue was the tune. Or possibly a bad batch of injectors. Maybe the tuner didn't have the right data for the injectors you ran.

I'm currently running ID1050X's which are 101lb/hr. I can slam the throttle from a dig and all that happens is the tires go up in smoke. At least until the traction control kicks in. Tons of guys running bigger injectors than me with no issues. One them I've given some advice on tuning with the 210's and as far as I know the car is driving fine.

The only big injectors I've seen people have problems with were the 80lb injectors when they first came out. But that was due to a lack of data. Once things got figured out they worked just fine as well. I ran them in my old set up with no issues. For a while I ran them on an N/A set up as my blower needed to be replaced. I think they're still pretty popular in the LS world too.
 
Last edited:

OSU34

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
347
The plug and play part refers to the stand alone replacing the stock ECU. Usually when switching to a stand alone a new harness is required. With a set up like the MS3 you unplug the stock ECU and plug the MS3 in it's place. I would recommend at least adding dual widebands though. It will still need to be tuned as each combo is different, but it's not as bad as something like SCT IMO.

If that was the case then the guys running the 210's would have the same issue. I'm 99% sure your issue was the tune. Or possibly a bad batch of injectors. Maybe the tuner didn't have the right data for the injectors you ran.

I'm currently running ID1050X's which are 101lb/hr. I can slam the throttle from a dig and all that happens is the tires go up in smoke. At least until the traction control kicks in. Tons of guys running bigger injectors than me with no issues. One them I've given some advice on tuning with the 210's and as far as I know the car is driving fine.

The only big injectors I've seen people have problems with were the 80lb injectors when they first came out. But that was due to a lack of data. Once things got figured out they worked just fine as well. I ran them in my old set up with no issues. For a while I ran them on an N/A set up as my blower needed to be replaced. I think they're still pretty popular in the LS world too.
I’m sure 04Sleeper had the right data for the injectors I was running. I talked to multiple other shops and they said the same thing. Again, I’m not trying to dispute it. It was an issue I ran in to, I did a lot of research, talked to a lot of reputable tuners and that’s the conclusion I found.
 

NoLimitRacing

Member
Established Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2018
Messages
115
Location
So Cal
Hey guys, just saw this on lethalperformance.com, i am getting ready to pull the trigger on my fuel setup and am doing my research on everything but i saw this on a description section. for the Injectors it must have been added just recently because i never seen it before, they use to have this disclaimer for the id2000 when they offered them. They don't have this disclaimer for their id1700 which i find odd. Anyone have issues with their id1300x? I took a screenshot of what I am referring too.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20211218-214724_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20211218-214724_Chrome.jpg
    184.9 KB · Views: 70

beefcake

Authorized Vendor
Authorized Vendor
Joined
May 16, 2001
Messages
8,972
Location
Cincinnati, OH
the 2000s used a different body, the 1300 and 1700 have been working pretty good in the other applications.

if you need help with fuel, don't hesitate to reach out, we have some great deals for the guys in the group

:)

Feel Free to DM me or call with any questions.
Terry "Beefcake" Reeves
Office - 855-TBR-RACE - Cell 513-478-1965
Owner Team Beefcake - 20+ Years Experience
Deal Directly with the boss, no pushy sales guys!!!!!!!
Beefcake Racing - Your Forced Induction Specialist - Your Forced Induction Specialists
#beefcakeracing #teambeefcake
 

NoLimitRacing

Member
Established Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2018
Messages
115
Location
So Cal
the 2000s used a different body, the 1300 and 1700 have been working pretty good in the other applications.

if you need help with fuel, don't hesitate to reach out, we have some great deals for the guys in the group

:)

Feel Free to DM me or call with any questions.
Terry "Beefcake" Reeves
Office - 855-TBR-RACE - Cell 513-478-1965
Owner Team Beefcake - 20+ Years Experience
Deal Directly with the boss, no pushy sales guys!!!!!!!
Beefcake Racing - Your Forced Induction Specialist - Your Forced Induction Specialists
#beefcakeracing #teambeefcake
Thanks man I will give you a call tomorrow.

Now I am starting to think it's just my tuner, I am assuming he wants me to go with the 1050x because they are easier for him to tune.... but maybe I am over thinking this as I tend do dwell on things the are passionate about

My problem is I'm not aware of many tuners with good reputation in my area, go figure lol, socal area, I am considering a Lund tune but nothing like having your car on a dyno with your tuner present.

I just hear the need for bigger injectors with e85 and don't want to ever buy injectors again. Idk in stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Alot of people say the 1050x will be enough but I don't want to push them just so they can keep up, you know what I mean?

Also I would like to run a nitrous kit and just don't see the 1050x being able to keep up with a whipple 3.0 + shot of nos.

But I'm not a expect, my knowledge comes from reading the internet....
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20211219-225143_Gmail.jpg
    Screenshot_20211219-225143_Gmail.jpg
    114.1 KB · Views: 47
  • Screenshot_20211219-225143_Gmail.jpg
    Screenshot_20211219-225143_Gmail.jpg
    114.1 KB · Views: 54

beefcake

Authorized Vendor
Authorized Vendor
Joined
May 16, 2001
Messages
8,972
Location
Cincinnati, OH
depedning on the level of the tuners ability some are easier if they have a tune built based off a certain "data set" already
 

01yellercobra

AKA slo984now
Established Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
21,126
Location
Cali
I'm in socal and not a fan of any of the local tuners. I've been doing it myself since I first put a Procharger on my 01. There's no need for a dyno anymore. Unless you want numbers.

FWIW, I have the 1050X's and make around 700rwhp on E85 and no pressure issues yet. I don't plan on going for more power any time soon though. Is there a reason you want dual power adders? That 3.0 will make more power than most of us need.

Given your plans you might want to consider a stand alone. Especially if you're going to be tempting fate with dual power adders. It'll also open up your injector options.
 

badcobra

It's Fast
Established Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Messages
2,515
Location
Mpls/St Paul, MN
ID2000s...aka Bosch 210's are not easy to tune on the stock PCM. You have to scale the data so far to make them work, it's just not practical.

BTW, ID2000's are Bosch 210's with a massive price gouge. They are the same injector as FIC 2150's, FID 2100's etc. They are all the same Bosch injector. ID flow matches them all, but you pay a $1500 markup for it. The dealers and injector sellers hate the customers knowing this, but it is fact.
 

beefcake

Authorized Vendor
Authorized Vendor
Joined
May 16, 2001
Messages
8,972
Location
Cincinnati, OH
ID2000s...aka Bosch 210's are not easy to tune on the stock PCM. You have to scale the data so far to make them work, it's just not practical.

BTW, ID2000's are Bosch 210's with a massive price gouge. They are the same injector as FIC 2150's, FID 2100's etc. They are all the same Bosch injector. ID flow matches them all, but you pay a $1500 markup for it. The dealers and injector sellers hate the customers knowing this, but it is fact.

they start as bosch injectors, id does have proprietar stuff on all their injectors as well, on the 1050, 1300, 1700 and 2600, they all have stainless bodies, so they don't rust interanlly, especially with e85 sitting.

they also "break in" the injectors, and then flow them. so you get the most perfectly matched / flowed injector on the market.

in addition, if you lose or damage them, they are serialzied so you can get a replacment that matches the other injector.

and with the discounts we offer for the guys, they aren't crazy, we do also do a bunch with fic, and we do project cars with both brands
 

badcobra

It's Fast
Established Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Messages
2,515
Location
Mpls/St Paul, MN
they start as bosch injectors, id does have proprietar stuff on all their injectors as well, on the 1050, 1300, 1700 and 2600, they all have stainless bodies, so they don't rust interanlly, especially with e85 sitting.

they also "break in" the injectors, and then flow them. so you get the most perfectly matched / flowed injector on the market.

in addition, if you lose or damage them, they are serialzied so you can get a replacment that matches the other injector.

and with the discounts we offer for the guys, they aren't crazy, we do also do a bunch with fic, and we do project cars with both brands
There is nothing proprietary on an ID2000 besides the engraved serial number and ID etching. The other injectors are modified (ID1300/1700) as you stated, but the ID2000 is a Bosch 210 and you can buy them flow matched from other vendors for a 1/3rd of the price. I know you're a dealer and you don't want anyone to know this, but there is absolutely nothing special about an ID2000. It's a $65 injector with a massive markup.
 

Albatross

Active Member
Established Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
302
Location
Georgia
Have you looked into FIC 1440s? That is what my tuner recommend I use. Also, I emailed FIC directly and they also recommended this injector for my power goals and setup. The customer service is very good. I got a prompt response and we emailed back and forth several times. The gentleman I spoke with took the time to answer all my questions. Very informative.
 

beefcake

Authorized Vendor
Authorized Vendor
Joined
May 16, 2001
Messages
8,972
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Have you looked into FIC 1440s? That is what my tuner recommend I use. Also, I emailed FIC directly and they also recommended this injector for my power goals and setup. The customer service is very good. I got a prompt response and we emailed back and forth several times. The gentleman I spoke with took the time to answer all my questions. Very informative.

the 1440s are nice, we'll be running these in our scat pack project
 

NoLimitRacing

Member
Established Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2018
Messages
115
Location
So Cal
I'm in socal and not a fan of any of the local tuners. I've been doing it myself since I first put a Procharger on my 01. There's no need for a dyno anymore. Unless you want numbers.

FWIW, I have the 1050X's and make around 700rwhp on E85 and no pressure issues yet. I don't plan on going for more power any time soon though. Is there a reason you want dual power adders? That 3.0 will make more power than most of us need.

Given your plans you might want to consider a stand alone. Especially if you're going to be tempting fate with dual power adders. It'll also open up your injector options.
You know what to be honest I just want to be able to whoop up on modified hell cats and corvettes on the open freeway stretches lol and drag straps.

But i have come to the realization that on our cobras a nitrous kit is just not practical or safe if using of the shelf single nozzle kits, from what I have gathered a direct port system is best for performance and longevity although more expensive. Due to the way a terminator breathe in air, the design and location of our water to air intercooler t75558777,95570972,90693628,93146058,79801681he fact that we are

I always heard that ported eaton cobras on e85, or even gas for that matter, respond extremely well to the juice. A few years ago at a cars and coffee type gathering there was this guy and his younger cousin that were on the bottle, both had cobras , speaking highly of the added performance gains that came from adding a throttle body nitrous kit. That might night neither of one of them took a loss and considering the high caliber competion that was present, we all were flabbergasted to say the least lol.

I have been wanting to max out the eaton before swapping to a big blower. With the new return fuel system running and running e85 I figured i might as well hit it with a 100 shot and see what we can accomplish when i take it down the 1/4 mile, find out what my personal best is.

I was really convinced on running nitrous but after researching nitrous as a whole I became aware that our cars are just not ideal platforms for it. Primarily due to our supercharger/ intake manifold design not allowing for a direct port injection.

The kits with a plate at the TB, either single or dual nozzle, just isn't safe in my opinion. In no expert by any means and don't consider my self educated or well versed in the physics that make up the anatomy for a combustible engine but I am a gear head at heart and have a understanding of what takes place inside the "heart" of a vehicle when the driver smashes the right foot down and calls upon all its ponys to get those tires turning and that speedometer moving!

I see how
I'm in socal and not a fan of any of the local tuners. I've been doing it myself since I first put a Procharger on my 01. There's no need for a dyno anymore. Unless you want numbers.

FWIW, I have the 1050X's and make around 700rwhp on E85 and no pressure issues yet. I don't plan on going for more power any time soon though. Is there a reason you want dual power adders? That 3.0 will make more power than most of us need.

Given your plans you might want to consider a stand alone. Especially if you're going to be tempting fate with dual power adders. It'll also open up your injector options.
Where in socal you by? In in the IE. Hey talk to me about self tunning.. what ecu and software are you running? I would love to be capable to tune my own car but I don't know where to start where to learn and I don't want to be my own Guinea pig on my Cobra You know what I mean Haha ha
 

01yellercobra

AKA slo984now
Established Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
21,126
Location
Cali
JMO, but I think with the 3.0 turned up you'd be able to whoop up on most of what's out there. My buddy just picked up a 2018 hellcat charger and I can pull on him while spinning.

I learned to tune with SCT. But it's not a route I'd go anymore. I currently run the MS3 plug and play from Megasquirt.
 

Users who are viewing this thread



Top