Z06: 0-60 in 3.7, first gear = Time to MOD :)

[rphinney]

Don't forget to add; a chevy small block with 100 more cubes :beer:

Don't forget the 346 ci LS1 was easily making 350 HP in Vette form and 325 in the last year of the Trans Am, How much HP is the N/A Mustang motor up to now (extra special OHC and 3V) 300 I thought. Don't fret though the F-body has been gone for only 2 years Ford will eclipse the LS1 mark N/A eventually.

Not to mention the LS6 which made 405HP at 346ci, you'll have to forgive me I have forgotten the last time Ford built a 405 HP anything N/A. I'm sure plenty of people will chime in though. :beer:

 

[Lethalchem]

Don't forget the 346 ci LS1 was easily making 350 HP in Vette form and 325 in the last year of the Trans Am, How much HP is the N/A Mustang motor up to now (extra special OHC and 3V) 300 I thought. Don't fret though the F-body has been gone for only 2 years Ford will eclipse the LS1 mark N/A eventually.

You're NA comments are off in my opinion. Chevy got ahead while tweaking an engine they were familiar with, while Ford began R&D on a completely new setup (the modular engine). It takes time to see the benifits of a new setup. Now that they've been around awhile, you see 320hp in the 1999 and 2001 Cobras. 385 in the 2000R, and an underrated 305 in the Mach1. Except for the CobraR, all these engines are within a hair of your chevy numbers, yet do it with 70 less cubic inches. I find that impressive.

 

[rphinney]

You're NA comments are off in my opinion. Chevy got ahead while tweaking an engine they were familiar with, while Ford began R&D on a completely new setup (the modular engine). It takes time to see the benifits of a new setup. Now that they've been around awhile, you see 320hp in the 1999 and 2001 Cobras. 385 in the 2000R, and an underrated 305 in the Mach1. Except for the CobraR, all these engines are within a hair of your chevy numbers, yet do it with 70 less cubic inches. I find that impressive.

See 93-95 production GM LT5

3 Years of Production led to 405 rated HP, many where found to be makng more than that at the rear wheels. 350 ci DOHC. It will be A LONG TIME before ford eclipses that baby, I do see what you are saying though. Really I think ford should have stuck with the 5.0 another year or so to better the 4.6/5.4 platform. Those first few years where real dogs. Seeing what they are doing now with the Mach 1 and such it is too bad all those guys with 96 GT's have to run around with like 215 HP.

 

[rphinney]

My question is why does Ford not go with more Cubes? How could it possible be cheaper/better for them to go FI. What is the biggest bore a Modular will go to? Perhaps Fourcam could let us know on this one, seems like the biggest problem modulars have is too much stroke, so a bigger bore would solve alot of Ford's issues.

 

[Lethalchem]

My question is why does Ford not go with more Cubes? How could it possible be cheaper/better for them to go FI. What is the biggest bore a Modular will go to? Perhaps Fourcam could let us know on this one, seems like the biggest problem modulars have is too much stroke, so a bigger bore would solve alot of Ford's issues.

I have no idea, but I don't know too many of us who would complain about getting more displacement. ;-)

If I had a choice though, I'd prefer forced induction over larger displacement, although I'd pick forced induction AND larger displacement over them both.

It's so much easier to bump power levels with FI. I have a friend who had a 2002 Z06 for awhile, and it cost him a good chunk of change to get minimal hp gains from that thing. Bolt-on's won't go too far, from what I've seen.

 

[Fourcam330]

My question is why does Ford not go with more Cubes? How could it possible be cheaper/better for them to go FI. What is the biggest bore a Modular will go to? Perhaps Fourcam could let us know on this one, seems like the biggest problem modulars have is too much stroke, so a bigger bore would solve alot of Ford's issues.

You're right, unfortunately we have shitty bore spacing (and in turn small valves and seats) to thank for that.
With a standard sleeve block .030" over is as large as you can go. You always have the option of going "big bore" which is a relseeved block with 3.70" diameter cylinder sleeves, but the extra bore kills gasket sealing area and allows for block flex.
I don't like Modular strokers because they are also a compromise; the piston gets yanked about halfway out of the hole (the skirt is halfway outside the bottom of the block @ BDC), the side load on the rods is greatly increased, and the crank is seriously weakened and rpm limited compared to a stocker.
If you want 100% stock type reliability with a Modular you need to stick with the stock dimensions meaning .020-.030" over 4.6 or 5.4.
It's not that a small bore/long stroke motor can't make great power, it's just that it nees a lot of help (ported heads, big cams, quality intake, etc.) to do so.
As for cost effective power, as much as I love making power out of thin air, it's hard to beat 4 valves and forced induction.

 

[Fourcam330]

There's no way to argue with the power they'll provide (driveability, yes)... but there's quite a bit to this tale you're leaving out...
The entire power adder system, requisite subsystem upgrades, and everything you do to the car to keep it controllable under power is going to ruin any reasonable chance of warranty claim (and if not and this shit just comes on and off without telltales, it's still a lot of damn work), whereas a vette with catback and CAI (arguably warrantable in-place) and a bottle in a bag (quickly removable) are even more feasible than the pulley swap on my 04 and that setup will likely beat most BPU Shelby's.
It might not even need drag radials, but if so, one could put them on the stock rims and drive the car like that every single day. Super reliable.
It would do us well to recognize that I'm more focused on street driving/racing and you're more focused on drag strip only. Driveability is a big issue for a lot of folks. In fact, I would say moreso for the Shelby crowd than the Z06 crowd (at least the guys I know... can't comment for the fogies @ 55mph club)

Actually the Shelby won't see the strip more than a few times (just to get an ET/MPH on paper), it's being built as a daily driver/fun highway car. I don't plan on putting a built rear (or one as built as in my 98) in, because it won't be launching on slicks all day long. Should the diff blow I'll replace it with something better, but I won't exactly need a locker/spool either. I'll replace broken driveline components (except the clutch which I'll replace asap) as they happen, should they happen. Being on 18" DRs or street tires means less worry for me.
Doing the math after the complete TT kit (including labor and billet GT shortblock) and fuel system it should still be marginally ($10-20K) cheaper than a Z06.
Neither Rad or I will accept a car that is not 100% daily drivable, thankfully the fact that we're both rather anal about what we care about is a benefit in this situation. Like I said, I already have a loud, brash race gas car.

Cheaper for you maybe... anyone who just buys the Shelby and drops it off for the custom TT setup (parts/labor/tuning/shit happening) is probably going to get damn near, or fly right by, the cost of that Z06.

Even if not, when it's time to sell the car they will lose their ass on their parts investment (even if you are so badass that you can make the car look like it never had the kit then "off" the parts & car for top-dollar, most folks can't or won't and the sale price will suffer considerably) while the Z06 owner pulls his few mods off and gets top potential dollar with relatively little hassle.

IMO, when looking at all the details, you simply can't beat factory horsepower, but it's important to realize your goal is a bit different. You're building one dominant-azz vehicle and I'm sure you will bring your A-game... few are as devoted and most will probably just want either car long enough to get the next one that comes with even more power.

What's the TT kit comprised of?

Two turbos
Fatty Intercooler setup
Big MAF
Big TB
Custom Intake setup
Custom Exhaust
Fuel Upgrades (pump/inj.?)
Tuning
Clutch
Axles (??)
Studs
Rear wheels/tires
Subs (did they fix the torque boxes on the new chassis?)
Ladder bars :-D

That's quite a list of serious performance and serious cash to just order up from a local parts house... prototype perks are cool (if applicable in your case) but don't pretend that everyone would have it so easy. Even if you're paying top dollar, you've got a clear advantage in knowledgeability and wrenching aptitude to make this setup work as it should and keep it that way.

How plug-and-play is their kit intended to be? Where exactly are the 66's going to go, anyway? Any idea of requisite gutting or major relocations?

I have two requests:
1) Pics of your setup once done (audio of the 66's if you would be so kind)
2) Race a stock Z06 on your stock tires, beat him, and tell me what the traps were :beer:

Final pricing on Rad's kit won't be out for sometime but I'd expect it to be around $15K. Again, well below the $72K off the lot base Z06 price. Of course I'll be doing upgrades to both the top and bottom end (but it wouldn't be necessary to hand a C6 Z06 its ass) and I don't plan on selling the car; my warranty will be voided the first week after purchase when Rad rips out the stock shortblock and throws it on Ebay for me. If my concern were resale, I would buy a collector car and not drive it.
As for chassis reinforcement, I'm looking into it. From what I've heard so far the welds holding the two subframes/chassis together aren't the greatest. My car will be down at Induction Concepts for around 6 mos for the prototype fitting, so it will give me time to have seams welded should I choose. As more high powered S197s hit the streets we'll start finding the weaknesses in the DEW98 platform. Thankfully I won't be the beta tester for that too;-)
Rad's kits are 100% complete and gorgeous. He spares no expense and it shows. I'm dropping the car off in 100% stock condition and receiving it tuned/ready to go months afterward. There's a ton of room in the new engine bay, much more so than was available with the previous Fox chassis cars, so twins will fit in a few places. www.inductionconcepts.com check out the Mach 1 kit. Photos of the kit will be all over Rad's site and the interenet/rags when it's done. Believe me, after I finally get the car back I'm going to do laps around 270 hoping to run into a C6 Z06. :beer:

 

[Formula51]

See 93-95 production GM LT5

I woudn't count the LT5. That engine was designed by Lotus and only in the venerable ZR1. What an awesome car! I had the pleasure of racinf my buddies ZR1 in my old Monte SS and then riding shotgun approaching 180mph!!!!!!!!!!! Butt pucker power was at a maximum!

 

[Fourcam330]

OK Fourcam so your Twin Turbo'd GT500 with a custom Built GT platform engine will take out a C6 Z06. :rollseyes

You win, WTF does this have to do with anything we where talking about?

One minute the argument was 2K in mods and the GT500 will be spanking a Z06, so I plainly stated a Z06 with the same 2K in mods will beat a GT500, then you start talking about a TT GT500? :shrug:

So I must have missed it, where you saying a GT500 will keep up with a Z on the spray or not?

LOL, oops I must have missed the $2K part, went back and reread it, my bad :beer:
I don't expect a BPU GT500 to keep up with a C6 Z06 on any kind of spray, however, I would expect it to hang with a full bolt on N/A Z06 without a power adder.
I've seen a few 380rwhp stock LT5 dyno graphs but never 405rwhp+.

 

[Vindication]

Lets be honest here...we have no clue what the Shelby is going to come with out of the box. If i were to give a number out i'd probably say the car should be in the 450 rwhp range. What i don't understand is why is this car is getting compared to the Z? I clearly don't understand why you people out there are so concerned with trying to beat the car in all performance aspects. The Z is a monster car and it should be. The car has natural power and if I had the money to buy one I'd hop on it in a sec. Why does everyone compare this..."Well, if you spend 2k on mods you can get 600 rwhp out of the Cobra" blah blah blah. dont you think a Z owner can go out buy a decent exhaust and spray on the car for less than 2k also and make crazy HP? Hmm, I think so. Anyway, doesnt matter. Can't compare two modified cars. PERIOD. What if some guy with a old fox body comes up to you for you going to be new Cobra owners and tells you "Well for 20k less I bought a fox body, a new motor, and I'm still faster than you" line. Its the same thing you people are doing with this Vette. Get over it and except the car is going to be great. I have no hate for the Vette. I will never compare my 07 to a Vette. I will only compare my car to cars of its class, price range, and in STOCK FORM. The moment you change anything the car becomes modded. Besides, don't you people know the faster you want to go the more money you have to pay? I mean, shit, when I buy my 07 I'll get a twin screw (if its not on there) cams, spray, etc and probably could get 750/800 Hp out of this car but that will be my choice. Then again I won't add up my receipts either and say...well, i spent 20k plus the 40k I bought the car for so I'm ok because I make more power than a Vette. Thats all crap. If you have the money go out and buy a Vette or a Cobra. Its all your choice. I think we all need to stop comparing this car to the Vette. Its stupid and its old.

 

[roushraven]

Lets be honest here...we have no clue what the Shelby is going to come with out of the box. If i were to give a number out i'd probably say the car should be in the 450 rwhp range. What i don't understand is why is this car is getting compared to the Z? I clearly don't understand why you people out there are so concerned with trying to beat the car in all performance aspects. The Z is a monster car and it should be. The car has natural power and if I had the money to buy one I'd hop on it in a sec. Why does everyone compare this..."Well, if you spend 2k on mods you can get 600 rwhp out of the Cobra" blah blah blah. dont you think a Z owner can go out buy a decent exhaust and spray on the car for less than 2k also and make crazy HP? Hmm, I think so. Anyway, doesnt matter. Can't compare two modified cars. PERIOD. What if some guy with a old fox body comes up to you for you going to be new Cobra owners and tells you "Well for 20k less I bought a fox body, a new motor, and I'm still faster than you" line. Its the same thing you people are doing with this Vette. Get over it and except the car is going to be great. I have no hate for the Vette. I will never compare my 07 to a Vette. I will only compare my car to cars of its class, price range, and in STOCK FORM. The moment you change anything the car becomes modded. Besides, don't you people know the faster you want to go the more money you have to pay? I mean, shit, when I buy my 07 I'll get a twin screw (if its not on there) cams, spray, etc and probably could get 750/800 Hp out of this car but that will be my choice. Then again I won't add up my receipts either and say...well, i spent 20k plus the 40k I bought the car for so I'm ok because I make more power than a Vette. Thats all crap. If you have the money go out and buy a Vette or a Cobra. Its all your choice. I think we all need to stop comparing this car to the Vette. Its stupid and its old.

Very well said. :beer:

 

[01L2Cobra]

Why is it that everyone on here is talks about adding all this power yet no one has thought about whether or not the transmission will be able to handle it? I know someone on here brought up the clutch issue but the transmission its self may be more of an issue. This car won’t be getting the upgraded Z06 T56 but will more than likely be getting the same one that the 03 and 04 had. Even if it does get an upgraded T56 the best version offered by Tremec has a torque capacity of 550lbs. For all of you people planning on pushing around 800rwhp how long do you really think the T56 will hold up?

 

[GTSpartan]

Lets be honest here...we have no clue what the Shelby is going to come with out of the box. If i were to give a number out i'd probably say the car should be in the 450 rwhp range. What i don't understand is why is this car is getting compared to the Z? I clearly don't understand why you people out there are so concerned with trying to beat the car in all performance aspects. The Z is a monster car and it should be. The car has natural power and if I had the money to buy one I'd hop on it in a sec. Why does everyone compare this..."Well, if you spend 2k on mods you can get 600 rwhp out of the Cobra" blah blah blah. dont you think a Z owner can go out buy a decent exhaust and spray on the car for less than 2k also and make crazy HP? Hmm, I think so. Anyway, doesnt matter. Can't compare two modified cars. PERIOD. What if some guy with a old fox body comes up to you for you going to be new Cobra owners and tells you "Well for 20k less I bought a fox body, a new motor, and I'm still faster than you" line. Its the same thing you people are doing with this Vette. Get over it and except the car is going to be great. I have no hate for the Vette. I will never compare my 07 to a Vette. I will only compare my car to cars of its class, price range, and in STOCK FORM. The moment you change anything the car becomes modded. Besides, don't you people know the faster you want to go the more money you have to pay? I mean, shit, when I buy my 07 I'll get a twin screw (if its not on there) cams, spray, etc and probably could get 750/800 Hp out of this car but that will be my choice. Then again I won't add up my receipts either and say...well, i spent 20k plus the 40k I bought the car for so I'm ok because I make more power than a Vette. Thats all crap. If you have the money go out and buy a Vette or a Cobra. Its all your choice. I think we all need to stop comparing this car to the Vette. Its stupid and its old.

:beer: Excelent post

 

[Fourcam330]

Why is it that everyone on here is talks about adding all this power yet no one has thought about whether or not the transmission will be able to handle it? I know someone on here brought up the clutch issue but the transmission its self may be more of an issue. This car won’t be getting the upgraded Z06 T56 but will more than likely be getting the same one that the 03 and 04 had. Even if it does get an upgraded T56 the best version offered by Tremec has a torque capacity of 550lbs. For all of you people planning on pushing around 800rwhp how long do you really think the T56 will hold up?

Big deal, pull the tranny and put in Viper spec input/output shafts. The Clutch will fail long before the tranny assuming the driver doesn't miss shifts.

 

[redz_02]

This thread has became pointless once I see "I'm going to have 800 hp for playing around on the street" I loose interest.

Good to see what the new z06 will be capable of, can't wait to see a few at texas speed flying by the porcshe club.

 

[E. Green Cobra]

Don't forget the 346 ci LS1 was easily making 350 HP in Vette form and 325 in the last year of the Trans Am, How much HP is the N/A Mustang motor up to now (extra special OHC and 3V) 300 I thought. Don't fret though the F-body has been gone for only 2 years Ford will eclipse the LS1 mark N/A eventually.

Not to mention the LS6 which made 405HP at 346ci, you'll have to forgive me I have forgotten the last time Ford built a 405 HP anything N/A. I'm sure plenty of people will chime in though. :beer:

ehh Ford can do it- however apparently their heart aint in it these days, I'll give a few examples- you can from your own conclusions

1) their were a few mules with std 4.6's with fr500 hardware making 380hp/360 tq (I believe these may have been the pre FI 03 powerplants, that were rejected)
2) The 00R's, examine trap speeds of 00r/01 z06's and generally the heavier R traps right around sometimes even higher than the Z) I've heard rumors that the real numbers are in the 425hp crank range, the Press car put out 372rwhp. although it seems to have been wearing a non production exhaust fwiw most tune/exhaust R's put out 360-390rwhp.
3) Its really hard to compare "hp" these days since no one actually tells the truth- like all those 02 F-bodies kicking 315hp+ to the rear when their "rated" at 325 crank.
4)the mach1 power plant has shown itself very capable of putting down the numbers, no they dont make 320rwhp stock- but they do run the times- times that are right in line with the f-bodies.
5) the 05 Gt makes 300hp on 87 octane with 3v heads, If Ford ever gets around to a 4v, variable cam setup watch out.

now I realize 1 and 2 are limited production or not even production- Ford can do it n/a ford has done it N/a but they seem set on FI right now- obviously its easier to get the power they want going FI, the mod 4.6/5.4 is not the end all be all motor- however for all its limitations they do pretty well for themselves. Now the F/S motors are even more impressive! However I think the 00R version compares very favorably with any of Gm's ls1/2/6 versions, throw variable cam timing in and an open mind in Fords powertrain department and I think they could come out with something very close to Chevy's LS7, numbers and with 100 less cubes.

 

[gonein60]

GT500 is awesome

This thread has became pointless once I see "I'm going to have 800 hp for playing around on the street" I loose interest.

Good to see what the new z06 will be capable of, can't wait to see a few at texas speed flying by the porcshe club.

Who gives a flying sh#t about the overpriced old men driving Zo6 :wf: . This is a Mustang website, and nobody cares about 80k zo6's that most of us will never afford, unless of course you have a rich daddy, live at home and don't pay rent, pour all your money into a piece of metal, or are in some serious, and I mean serious debt.

You 80k Zo6 lovers can brag all you want, but the Shelby Mustang is the new super(bang for your buck) all american musclecar. Mustangs have soul, Zo6's have a fat exorbitant price tag. I don't like the Z06, it's for 60year old men trying to relive their youth, and they don't have a good body or nice looks, so they have to get a women's attention through their car. What a joke.

I'm gonna buy me a Shelby, put some 4:10's, smaller pulley, CAI, tune and fat tires, and then proceed to smoke :burnout: the hell out of those 80k zo6's for 40k less. The only z's that are gonna have a chance are modded ones, and we all know that most old men driving zo6 owners don't mod 80k cars.

P.S. The GT Shelby looks awesome SVT/ Carol Shelby, and I'll be the first in line to buy one of these Zo6 killers. epper:

 

[Captain Beyond]

ehh Ford can do it- however apparently their heart aint in it these days, I'll give a few examples- you can from your own conclusions

1) their were a few mules with std 4.6's with fr500 hardware making 380hp/360 tq (I believe these may have been the pre FI 03 powerplants, that were rejected)
2) The 00R's, examine trap speeds of 00r/01 z06's and generally the heavier R traps right around sometimes even higher than the Z) I've heard rumors that the real numbers are in the 425hp crank range, the Press car put out 372rwhp. although it seems to have been wearing a non production exhaust fwiw most tune/exhaust R's put out 360-390rwhp.
3) Its really hard to compare "hp" these days since no one actually tells the truth- like all those 02 F-bodies kicking 315hp+ to the rear when their "rated" at 325 crank.
4)the mach1 power plant has shown itself very capable of putting down the numbers, no they dont make 320rwhp stock- but they do run the times- times that are right in line with the f-bodies.
5) the 05 Gt makes 300hp on 87 octane with 3v heads, If Ford ever gets around to a 4v, variable cam setup watch out.

now I realize 1 and 2 are limited production or not even production- Ford can do it n/a ford has done it N/a but they seem set on FI right now- obviously its easier to get the power they want going FI, the mod 4.6/5.4 is not the end all be all motor- however for all its limitations they do pretty well for themselves. Now the F/S motors are even more impressive! However I think the 00R version compares very favorably with any of Gm's ls1/2/6 versions, throw variable cam timing in and an open mind in Fords powertrain department and I think they could come out with something very close to Chevy's LS7, numbers and with 100 less cubes.

Very well said :beer:

Don't forget about the 300 hp 5.8 Windsor that powered the 95 R. It would have been interesting if Ford had chosen to develop their pushrod 5.8 like GM did with their 5.7 LTx & LSx series instead of their smaller displacement modular engines.

 

[Fourcam330]

This thread has became pointless once I see "I'm going to have 800 hp for playing around on the street" I loose interest.

Good to see what the new z06 will be capable of, can't wait to see a few at texas speed flying by the porcshe club.

Sorry if I contributed to whatever prompted you to create the grammar abortion that was your post. In the near future, because of cars like the GT500 and Z06, you're going to be hearing about other peoples "800HP/680rwhp" cars quite often. Anyone got a link to the Stock Longblock Forum? :lol:

 

[Captain Beyond]

:lol: