Stay FI or go NA for OT

I am pretty certain that I have either broken a ringland or something worse to the engine in our 99. The current engine setup is with an intercooled Procharger P1SC at 14lbs, .020 over block, forged internals, P&P heads and intake and all of the required fuel and air supporting items.

Here is my question: Now that we are interested in running more open track events and less drag racing, should I switch the combo back to a naturally aspirated setup?

I have been thinking about this and I like the idea of simplicity and reliablilty. I was already considering lowering the boost on the car and reducing the hp, now I am thinking of taking that idea further.

Any thoughts? Has anyone else done this?

brkntrxn said:

should I switch the combo back to a naturally aspirated setup?

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Yep!

:thumbsup: :coolman: :beer:

ebay the blower set-up to offset the cost of a new variable runner length intake manifold:coolman:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6214

I talked to my tuner today and we are tossing around the idea of building a 5.4. From what it sounds, a lot of my parts will fit right onto the 5.4.

Is anyone else running or know of anyone running a 5.4 in a Mustang on the track?

brkntrxn said:

I talked to my tuner today and we are tossing around the idea of building a 5.4. From what it sounds, a lot of my parts will fit right onto the 5.4.

Is anyone else running or know of anyone running a 5.4 in a Mustang on the track?

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All the 2000 Cobra R guys are.

Intake availability is the rub...

Head selection must be done at the same time as intake selection. The intake runner length, shape, and flange orientation are different between 4.6 DOHC and 5.4 DOHC... due to the taller and wider 5.4.

The 351 Windsors did not have these issues,
Since heads work when sourced from the 5.0 selections, and the width issue was addressed solely by the intakes.

Availability of N/A 5.4 intakes worthy of such a great project.... comes from a VERY SHORT LIST!

Adapters are a possibility for 4.6 heads and intakes on a 5.4... but the very best 5.4 heads are Ford GT/GT500, and 2000 Cobra R. The first 2(same heads) are mated to supercharger intakes, the second was NA but intakes are just about non existent.
http://www.soligen.com/parts/cobrar-man.shtml

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/YVS450/tech/tech1.htm

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/YVS450/products/intakemanifold/intake5.4.htm

I would love to see some of the FR500C parts become more available to non-race team buyers.

The 5.0 (big bore 4.6) race motor uses Ford GT 5.4 heads NOT the over the counter FR500 head which have 4.6 intake port dimensions. A special multi-fixed-lengths intake (that is narrower than most 4.6 intakes) is used to allow the use of the 5.4(Ford GT) based heads on the shorter narrower FR500 5.0 block(W/ 4.6 external dimensions)

This is one of the reasons the new Mustangs have been kicking some serious A$$ on track!!!

BEYOND PRICEY.... but OH BABY!!!
:bowdown: :rockon: :banana: :rockon: epper:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=8022

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=8408

This is the 5.0 cammer that most of the other FR500(with no suffix) parts are from....

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6787

I'm doing a bunch of cooling mods on my Termy (and a few power mods too.. semi-low boost/twin screw) in hopes of making it an even better open track/street fun mobile.

Personally I really love the low and midrange torque that is available at the crack of the throttle from a P D supercharged car. But heat has killed many of these ultra/fun cars.... 20 minutes is a long time to be shoving 2 tons of fun around a track!!! Those who do not address this issue end up paying in the end.

Thanks for all of the info Larry and Jimmy. I'll start doing my research and see what kind of decision I can make (and what kind of budget I need).

You could also have a custom sheet metal intake fabbed for the 5.4L as well. As far as my research has taken me that is the way most people build a NA 5.4L, if you choose FI just drop in a GT500 engine:rockon:

I myself am going to build a fuel injected NA 351W when I finally get around to building my mustang. There is a much larger aftermarket for the 351 and therefore you can typically build them a bit cheaper. I personally would stick NA for open track and if you are looking for gobs of torque run a larger cube engine.

The only FI I would accept on OT is porsche based on track history, NA is the way to go.

Reviving a thread from the past instead of creating a new one...

Here we are a year later and I have blown the engine in the 99 Cobra we put together (in a hurry) last year. To give a little background, I had wanted to go naturally aspirated then, but an invitation to a MM&FF drag race drove me to put together another blower motor over a two week period in order to make the event.

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed a decent amount of smoke on acceleration (but still very good power). I pulled the plugs and there was oil on #7 and the leakdown showed between 50-80% loss on #7 (depending on the smallest of variances of crank position over several tests). Until the engine is apart, I can only surmise that I have either a broken ring or a broken ringland or something similar. So, I immediately parked the car and I have sold all of the blower related parts and I will be going naturally aspirated this time around. No more forced induction $h!t for me. I love the power, but hate the headache.

I have a couple of questions for the track gurus. The car will see very little (as in less than a couple thousand) street miles and somewhere around 5-8 open track weekends per year. I am looking for reliability over peak horsepower numbers because seat time is far greater to me than winning the ever elusive HPDE Championship. I'd like to see somewhere around 350rwhp, but I will gladly take OEM driveability over a bragging number. I do not want to go all out as this car will probably never be raced other than Time Trials. Besides, for the next couple of years, my track time improvements will come with more practice and education, not necessarily with more power.

My questions for the track gurus are below:

1. I have had two sources (an engine builder and Comp themselves) recommend the following cam: 234/232 @ .050 .475/.450 lift with 114 degree lobe separation. This cam will supposedly make power from 1800-6200rpms. Would you choose these new cams over a used set of FR500 set of bump sticks? (I'll not state any prices to protect the innocent) Or stay with my existing Houston Performance custom grind 282 total duration, 470 lift, 114 lobe separation cams and adjust the lobe separation to change the numbers? (I am not overly familiar with how this works, but it was a recommendation by a third source).

2. My heads still have the stock springs (~21,500 miles), would you replace them with a new set of 26123-32 springs and 798-32 titanium retainers while the heads were off? (I think I know the answer to this one )

3. 30, 36, or 39lb FRPP injectors? 30s are going pretty cheap right now from Ford

4. What compression level? I want to maintain use of 93 octane and keep a safe tune, so is 10:1 about the highest you suggest?


Here are a few quick details on the power parts of the car (99 Cobra): FRPP 2007 aluminum 4.6 block (most likely it will be bored .020 over), Manley rods, ported and polished 99 heads (heads will be gone through yet again), JBA shorties, BBK X, Flowmaster mufflers, BBK TB (installed way before it was discovered TBs do nothing for these cars), C&L Housing with 03 meter MAF, stock intake, return-style fuel system with twin Walbro pumps/Aeromotive pump controller/fuel regulator/Steeda rails, and 3.55 gear. There are a ton more parts on the car, just ask if it will help with the recommendations.

Thanks,

Kevin

Similar combo. Same car.

N/A is by the far the most reliable way to go. Compression, Cams and Long-tubes.

With a mod-motor, you can run 11:1 or better on pump gas. Stock compression is 9.85:1 so 10:1 doesn't buy you much. 11:1 or better and your torque will thank you.

Cams, I'm pretty happy with the Comp Cams sticks, will find the stick specs later. Good for almost 40 rwhp on my blown setup but N/A's will show useful gains.

LONG-tubes for HP and torque. Unless you plan on accessing your tranny a lot, get rid of the shorties. They don't buy you much.

Valve springs that will let you run to about 7500 rpm. This combo makes a fun, reliable 93 octane burning track car.

42 lb injectors are overkill but are reliable and plenty cheap too. Drop one of the fuel pumps for less complexity but keep the return system. Tunes are easier.

To be honest, you can probably make more HP/$$ out of a 351 combo and its easier to work on with more torque.

I've been open tracking my Blown 99 for 5 years plus. It takes a lot of work to keep it reliable and COOLED. 2nd go around, I'd go N/A in a heart beat. Its always on the edge on track as you know.

The power is fun though.

John

Thanks for the thoughts, John. There is no doubt I will miss the extra 200 horsepower, lol. So 11:1 is still safe on 93 octane? That is good news, definitely. As for the long tubes, how much torque are they worth over the equal-length shorties?

Funny you should mention a 351. I have one sitting in GA under a shed doing nothing. If I ever come across a 4cyl Fox coupe, that will be the project.

Another thought.
SCCA just allowed us to run 347 motors this year. Rules were late getting out, so I haven't "seen" any yet (Suspected they were out there, just no proof :shrug but many have plans for next year to build strokers. Everything fits, and are lighter than 351.
Dave
Oh, wait. I thought we were talking carbed cars. nevermind.
A/Sedan requires 302 blocks, even for those running 05-08 cars. ;^)

Dave - A 347 is definitely a good option on a pushrod setup.



On another note, I boxed up all of the blower stuff and shipped it out this week. The box was 82.5lbs, so the blower related parts must have been right at 80lbs alone. So, another plus on getting rid of the centri is losing weight and that has me itching to leave off the AC compressor and hoses when we put it all back together later this summer.

I'll have to make up for the power somewhere, lol.

I have heard that the rod to stroke ratio is better on the 331 stroker. I am not an expert but I have seen this in several mags.

brkntrxn said:

I'll have to make up for the power somewhere, lol.

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Make up for the power with suspension which will give you greater corner speeds and more importantly corner exit speed! :idea:

Strip some weight out of the car as well! You'll be fine! :-D

I agree, hence the desire to lighten the load. The car already has H&R springs, Bilsteins, C&C plates, FLSFCs, etc. Not exactly a trank junkie setup, but somewhat better than stock. Before I spend another dime on the suspension, I feel I need to become a more consistent driver. After this engine debacle, I want my next purchase to be for a specific reason; ie safety (rollbar, seats, harnesses), coil-overs because I need a stiffer spring rate, or bigger calipers because I need more braking, etc.

brkntrxn said:

I want my next purchase to be for a specific reason; ie safety (rollbar, seats, harnesses), coil-overs because I need a stiffer spring rate, or bigger calipers because I need more braking, etc.

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Well that's where the suspension comes in. If you have better suspension you don't have to slow the car as much to go through the corners. Therefore you don't need bigger brakes to slow down the car using more corner speed and saving braking! :read::idea:

brkntrxn said:

Dave - A 347 is definitely a good option on a pushrod setup.



On another note, I boxed up all of the blower stuff and shipped it out this week. The box was 82.5lbs, so the blower related parts must have been right at 80lbs alone. So, another plus on getting rid of the centri is losing weight and that has me itching to leave off the AC compressor and hoses when we put it all back together later this summer.

I'll have to make up for the power somewhere, lol.

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Ah screw it, put remote turbo's on it Kevin. LOL
Best of luck with the NA build. Like the guys said, suspention, weight and brakes are the way to go. A cage and fire system would be next on the list if it were me.

Again, best of luck.