Unhappy with Carbotech 1521 Bobcat street pads.

[TheFleshRocket]

I recently installed a set of Carbotech 1521 Bobcat street pads on my '04 Cobra, primarily due to good reviews read on SVTP. (Thanks alot, a-holes! :lol: ) I wore out my stock pads with about 23K on them during a track day in the Spring, and I'd put on a set of semi-metallic pads I picked up at O'Reilly Auto Parts (I forget the brand) so I could get back on the track. The Bobcats are the replacement for those temporary pads.

I had my rotors cut before installing the Bobcats, and I followed the break-in procedure as recommended by Carbotech, even going so far as to email them to clarify a few details about the break-in. I also replaced the brake fluid with some of the expensive stuff (again, I forget which brand) sold by Carbotech.

My complaints with the Bobcats are three-fold. First, the initial bite is unimpressive--less bite than either the stockers or the pads from O'Reilly. Second, while overall stopping power is good, it requires a firm push on the pedal. Third, while they dust less than the O'Reilly pads for sure (which were pretty dusty) and somewhat less than the stockers (not great but not terrible), they are still relatively dusty pads. After a couple hundred miles of street driving with occasional aggressive stops, the wheels have a noticeable coating of brake dust.

(There is also occasional moaning from the pads under light braking when the brakes are cold, but that doesn't bother me.)

Now the brake dust I could live with if the initial bite was better and the pedal effort lower, but given that these pads feel like their performance is inferior to the stockers and a set of $60 auto parts store pads, I am ready to take them off.

I traded emails with Mike at Carbotech. He is a knowledgeable, helpful guy and an asset to the company. Unfortunately, he confirmed that what I'm experiencing is how the pads are designed to work. He stated that, in Carbotech's experience, drivers don't want an aggressive pad for street use. He said that the AX6 compound would provide the bite and pedal feel that I wanted, albeit with the potential for considerably more noise and dust.

Here is Carbotech's description of their various compounds: Carbotech Performance Brakes The description for the Bobcat compound does list excellent initial bite, despite that apparently not being the case.

I am debating between two different compounds: the Disc Italia titanium kevlar and the Xbrakes carbon. Performance Brakes - Brake Pads, Brake Rotors and Brake Kits I'm going to call up Brake World to get their opinion of them. At this point, I've sworn off ceramic pads altogether.

Anyway, I know some of you guys like the Carbotech 1521 Bobcat pads. I can't really justify replacing a set of pads that only have a couple hundred miles on them, so if anybody is interested, I'll sell them for $50 shipped to anywhere in the US. (Those of you who have used these pads know that they sell for about $130 shipped, so hopefully $50 shipped is a good enough deal that someone who really likes them will want them.)

Anyone who has positive experiences with other pads on our Cobras, feel free to speak up and share your opinions. Thanks!

 

[cobracide]

Are you sure the brake system has been bled properly? Those are supposed to be good pads from what I have heard but have no personal experience with them. Hawk HPS works great for me on the street.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

Yup, I'm sure the brakes are bled properly. I used a vacuum pump at each caliper to draw the fluid through. The brake pedal is firm and hard.

I've used the Hawk HPS pads on my '89 Mustang GT and found them disappointing. The previous pads were EBC Greenstuff, and the Hawk pads were a noticeable decrease in bite and stopping power.

I've found pad compounds for motorcycles that have great initial bite even when cold, have great stopping power when cold and hot, don't dust, and last pretty much forever. The only drawbacks are that they are somewhat expensive ($100-$200 per set for front brakes) and they may be harder on rotors (I slightly warped both front rotors on an SV650). I don't understand why I haven't yet been able to find car brakes with those characteristics, as the pad compound technology obviously exists. Price isn't an object (I'd pay $200 for a set of pads at this point if I knew for sure they'd do what I want) and I don't care if they're hard on rotors (I drive my Cobra maybe 2000 miles a year so I could probably easily get several years out of a set of rotors).

 

[Relaxed Chaos]

Finding a good all around pad is tough. If you want race pad performance you need to live with noise and dust and no cold bite. Like many, myself included, you are looking for the best of both worlds combined into a single pad. I currently have EBC yellow stuff pads and they are a decent compromise but not perfect. I'm likely switching to the carbotech bobcats for street use and swapping on the AX10's for track days. Thinking about getting some cryo rotors as well.

 

[Bruha]

I am sorry to hear this. I too am using the carbotech pads. I spoke with Mike jr. several times before purchasing his pads. I am running the XP8's due to his recommendation. There are noisy, but I am very, very happy with them!! Cold bite is impressive.

It is my impression the 1521's are just a regular street compound. Nothing to crazy.

Anyways, sorry to hear you are disappointed.

 

[Bruha]

BTW, where in S. Illinois are you from?

 

[TheFleshRocket]

I am sorry to hear this. I too am using the carbotech pads. I spoke with Mike jr. several times before purchasing his pads. I am running the XP8's due to his recommendation. There are noisy, but I am very, very happy with them!! Cold bite is impressive.

How is the dust with those pads? I ask because all of the compounds aside from the 1521 say "not recommended for street due to elevated levels of noise and dust".

I'm in Carbondale.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

Finding a good all sound pad is tough. If you want race pad performance you need to live with noise and dust and no cold bite.

That's just not true--I have three motorcycles in my garage with "race pad" performance even when cold, without being noisy or giving off any dust to speak of. The compound technology does exist--I just haven't found it from any company that makes car pads!

Like many, myself included, you are looking for the best of both worlds combined into a single pad. I currently have EBC yellow stuff pads and they are a decent compromise but not perfect. I'm likely switching to the carbotech bobcats for street use and swapping on the AX10's for track days. Thinking about getting some cryo rotors as well.

I've used the Redstuff and Greenstuff pads. The Greenstuff pads were a long time ago on a Fox Mustang, but at the time, they were the grippiest pads I'd used. The Redstuff pads, I tried on my wife's 300C and they were absolutely terrible. Noisy, ridiculously dusty, no cold bite, needed to be warm to have even modest stopping power, and wore out in 10K miles of mostly gentle street driving.

I wouldn't bother with cryo rotors unless you're overheating and warping or cracking yours. I destroyed (warped, blued and hairline fractures) a set of rotors on the same Fox that I had the Greenstuffs on, and I cracked a pair of drilled/slotted rotors that I had on my wife's 300C, so both cars got cryo treated rotors next. So far, the stock rotors on my Cobra stood up to track abuse with no problem. (I still had bad brake fade after several laps of hauling the car down from 130mph to 70mph at the end of the front straight at Putnam, but the rotors themselves survived fine.)

 

[Relaxed Chaos]

That's just not true--I have three motorcycles in my garage with "race pad" performance even when cold, without being noisy or giving off any dust to speak of. The compound technology does exist--I just haven't found it from any company that makes car pads!

I've been looking for a long time and talking with a lot of people, manufacturers, and distributors as have others on here. No magic dual purpose pad has yet been identified. So far there is always a compromise that must be made.

Keep in mind that bikes are light. These cars are 3600lbs+ and traveling at similar speeds. MV^2 is a bitch that is hard to tame.

Certainly if you find one let us know.

Do you have all four corners of the Bobcat pads you are trying to get rid of? What's your impression of the ability to modulate the braking force during a stop/corner/manuever with the Bobcats? I'm interested in picking these up from you.

 

[RTCOBRA2964]

Are they for the stock calipers? I have Brembo fronts and wanted to make sure.

 

[cobracide]

Yeah, not sure what kind of braking you were expecting but it's a 3,650 lb coupe car.

 

[black 10th vert]

Yeah, not sure what kind of braking you were expecting but it's a 3,650 lb coupe car.

+1. I had purchased Hawk HPS pads, and new braided stainless lines, but after just installing the lines alone the braking had improved so much that I decided to just keep the stock pads, and ended up selling the Hawk ones, as I was told they would be more dusty than stock. My car doesn't see any roadrace action, but for street, they are more than adequate in my opinion.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

I bought the 1521s to save my chrome wheels from further brake dust attacks.
They work fine on the street, tires are more important than pad compound on the street anyway. I see at least you have a fairly decent tire on, that can do some work.

When I need race brake performance I put race brakes on. XP10s, XP12s and XP14s.

I don't see how you can compare brake dust levels and stopping performance between a bike that weighs less than 500 pounds with a car that weighs more than 7 times that weight, yea I imagine it just might dust a little bit less.

Brake dust on a bike is going to be blown away before it gets on that large diameter wind blown wheel anyway.

If you do not want corrosive dust eating up an expensive chrome wheel that is no longer available from Ford, these are great pads!
They stop good enough for the type of typical spirited street driving I do.

Anything more and I am saving that activity for TWS or MSR. On the street if I braked like I did on track I would be getting rear ended, the traffic is too heavy here for that level craziness.

 

[Tractionless1]

I wish I could get 200 miles before I had to clean my wheels from dust, more like 35! Hawk HP+'s will put you through the windshield when dead cold and only get better with heat. I have them at all corners, with SS lines, Baer Eradispeeds, brake cooling ducts, and ATE super blue. Pedal travels maybe 1/2", perfect setup for a 2k mile year car IMO.

I guess I'm opposite of what Carbotech's customers are wanting as I want hard braking and bite from the get go on my cars and bikes. I'll do the modulation with my foot or hand myself thanks. Oh and btw the most widely used race pads on motorcycles dust badly as well.

 

[Brutal Metal]

Drive em for a few hundred miles more the dusting should dissipate, mine where messy initially!

 

[Teej281]

Just throwing this out there, but the Hawk Performance Ceramic pads are pretty decent. I mean they threw me forward to the point of causing me to be dizzy and feeling like passing out. lol They do dust a lot more than I had wanted though for a ceramic pad. If I could get this performance or better out of a pad that had more bite, I'd be in love!

But hey, I got 5th in an auto-x event using these pads and stock rubber lines. So they cant be that bad! And I have junk tires up front!

 

[Bruha]

They dust bigtime!!

How is the dust with those pads? I ask because all of the compounds aside from the 1521 say "not recommended for street due to elevated levels of noise and dust".

I'm in Carbondale.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

Do you have all four corners of the Bobcat pads you are trying to get rid of? What's your impression of the ability to modulate the braking force during a stop/corner/manuever with the Bobcats? I'm interested in picking these up from you.

Yup, I have the Bobcats on the front and rear. I installed them within a hundred miles or so of each other. The fronts probably have ~200 miles on them and the rears around 300.

I haven't really done any sport driving with the Bobcats, just some straight line test braking to ascertain their performance, so I can't really comment on their ability to modulate while trail braking. I did the test braking near the ABS threshold but not enough to dip into ABS at any corner, so I didn't need to do any modulation.

Let me know if you're interested in all four--they're still on the car as I haven't picked a replacement for sure, yet, but I think I'm gonna order the Disc Italia titanium kevlar ones.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

+1. I had purchased Hawk HPS pads, and new braided stainless lines, but after just installing the lines alone the braking had improved so much that I decided to just keep the stock pads

My guess is that your original brake fluid was badly in need of replacement, or there was air in the lines. Every bike I've owned that didn't come from the factory with steel brake lines was upgraded to steel, and I don't think I could ever tell a difference--at least not a significant one. Replacing the fluid and properly bleeding the lines could have been responsible for most, if not all, of the increase in braking feel. (Or maybe your stock rubber lines were shot--but my '96 Buick wagon still has its stock rubber lines and they feel fine, so probably not.)

The stock pads have pretty good initial bite and stopping power--my only gripe with them is the dust. That, and fade--although I think the fade I experienced at the track was more due to old brake fluid and insufficient cooling for the front rotors than from the pads themselves.

 

[TheFleshRocket]

I bought the 1521s to save my chrome wheels from further brake dust attacks.
They work fine on the street, tires are more important than pad compound on the street anyway. I see at least you have a fairly decent tire on, that can do some work.

Yeah, having low dust levels (and non-corrosive dust) is important, but I'm not willing to compromise braking power (especially to levels lower than stock) to achieve it.

It's funny that you consider the RT-615 as fairly decent tires--IMO they're friggin' terrible and I can't wait to replace them. They may have decent grip, but definitely not when cold or even warm--they need to be HOT to not suck horribly. I've always had traction problems on the street. On an 80F+ summer day, after driving for several miles to warm up the tires, I can still punch it in second in a straight line and spin all the way to redline. After I do that several times, they'll finally be hot enough to actually maintain traction in second while going straight. In cooler temps, even half throttle in third gear will get the tires spinning. My car is an intake/pulley/tune/exhaust setup with ~450 to the wheels, so not exactly a monster.

When I did a track day at Putnam Park in the Spring, ambient was pretty chilly-it finally got up to the lows 50s in the afternoon. The RT-615s had such pathetic grip even after half a dozen laps that EVERYTHING was passing me. I'd be going through a corner at the edge of traction, and other cars (the lowliest of which was a current model Focus) would come up on my inside, waiting for me to wave them past. And Putnam is a track I've got plenty of experience with on two wheels, so it wasn't like it was the car itself or my skill level holding me back--it was those damn crappy tires.

I don't see how you can compare brake dust levels and stopping performance between a bike that weighs less than 500 pounds with a car that weighs more than 7 times that weight, yea I imagine it just might dust a little bit less.

Sure, that's a reasonable observation. That said, there are some bike brake pad compounds that dust alot, some that dust moderately, and some that dust almost not at all. There are also pads with varying degrees of stopping power. What I found significant is that some of the pad compounds that have great stopping power also have extremely low dust levels. Now while a 3600 lb car has a lot more brake pad material and therefore a lot more potential for dust than a sub-500 lb bike, it should still be possible that there are pads with great stopping power that have (relatively speaking, at least) very low levels of dust. What I'm getting at is that there should be brake pads that have excellent stopping power that don't dust any more than the least dusty lower-performance brake pads. Or at least that's how it seems to me.