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SVT Shelby GT500
Motorcraft 5W50 VOA
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<blockquote data-quote="PistolWhip" data-source="post: 10233515" data-attributes="member: 30361"><p>Rebuttal of what??? Are you just here looking for a fight or are you trying to add worthwhile content to this discussion? Re read my post and you'll clearly see that I didn't exactly disagree with anything you said. All I said was that if you use oil that NEEDS an additive, you probably aren't using the right oil. I changed my oil for the first time a few weeks ago and RedLine is what went in. I didn't add any additives because the levels of ZDDP additives in the RedLine right out of the bottle are more than enough to get the job done in this engine. If you feel the need to add it, more power to yea, but I don't and don't recommend it to anyone that asks. </p><p></p><p>ZDDP is not the holy grail of engine lubrication as you are making it seem. It’s simply one part of the equation and in engines that use over head cams or roller lifters / followers, the overwhelming amounts of ZDDP that used to be needed are no longer needed. Solid flat tappet cam profiles, as specially high lift and long duration cams, required WAY MORE anti-wear additives (ZDDP and Molly) in the oil to maintain lubricity under high pressure (between the cam lobe and the lifter). However the increasing use of roller cams and in our case, the overhead design with roller followers, vastly reduced that high pressure high friction contact between the cam lobe surface and the lifter head surface. Please explain to me where else in an engine such as the 5.4 DOHC engine, that there is metal on metal pressure to the point that overdosing ZDDP levels will assist in lubricity and lasting effects of engine oil... The whole purpose of ZDDP and the moly that it requires in order to work properly, is to create a sacrificial surface between two metal surfaces. Aside from a wrist pin, where in the 5.4 DOHC do you have metal to metal contact that requires <strong><em><u>excessive</u></em></strong> amounts of anti-wear additives in order to resist scoring? (Excessive being the key word here).</p><p></p><p>I can't recall where I saw it, but I know a few years back (probably longer than a few because it was when I was building small block Chevy engines) I found some research published by a couple of engineers from GM that worked on the original ZR1 engine. They did extensive testing on engine oil and ZDDP levels and determined that quantities of ZDDP equal to 600-800 ppm phosphorus were more than sufficient for most high performance "roller" engines, "except for break-in of flat tappet cams or OHC followers with high spring pressures." SO, even if you doubled that number, 1000-1600 PPM should easily be enough to keep anti-wear characteristics of group IV base stock engine oil serviceable for extended lengths of time. So why on earth would you need to add ZDDP to motor oil that already contains "no less than 2200 PPM" right out of the bottle? Unless I'm misunderstanding your last post?:shrug:</p><p></p><p>ZDDP additives above and beyond what’s already in the bottle, were (and still are) used for engine break in lubricants on pushrod engines because the pressure at the cam lobe is extremely high as specially when the cam, lifters, rocker faces and valve heads are still "seating" during the break in process. Hence also, the use of copious amounts of engine assembly lube during the assembly process. This is why most cam break in procedures are what they are. However, overhead cams with roller followers have nowhere near the lobe surface pressure that flat tappet cams and lifters have and require a completely different break-in procedure. </p><p>While ZDDP is still, in my opinion, the best anti-wear additive available in readily available engine oils today; For the GT500 engine imparticular over using it is #1 not necessary #2 not cost effective and #3 counterproductive in that the ash and soot it creates is destructive over time to emission control devices and also proven to lend to increased sludge and carbon build up inside the crank case. Like most things in the world, too much of a good thing is not always a good thing. :beer:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="PistolWhip, post: 10233515, member: 30361"] Rebuttal of what??? Are you just here looking for a fight or are you trying to add worthwhile content to this discussion? Re read my post and you'll clearly see that I didn't exactly disagree with anything you said. All I said was that if you use oil that NEEDS an additive, you probably aren't using the right oil. I changed my oil for the first time a few weeks ago and RedLine is what went in. I didn't add any additives because the levels of ZDDP additives in the RedLine right out of the bottle are more than enough to get the job done in this engine. If you feel the need to add it, more power to yea, but I don't and don't recommend it to anyone that asks. ZDDP is not the holy grail of engine lubrication as you are making it seem. It’s simply one part of the equation and in engines that use over head cams or roller lifters / followers, the overwhelming amounts of ZDDP that used to be needed are no longer needed. Solid flat tappet cam profiles, as specially high lift and long duration cams, required WAY MORE anti-wear additives (ZDDP and Molly) in the oil to maintain lubricity under high pressure (between the cam lobe and the lifter). However the increasing use of roller cams and in our case, the overhead design with roller followers, vastly reduced that high pressure high friction contact between the cam lobe surface and the lifter head surface. Please explain to me where else in an engine such as the 5.4 DOHC engine, that there is metal on metal pressure to the point that overdosing ZDDP levels will assist in lubricity and lasting effects of engine oil... The whole purpose of ZDDP and the moly that it requires in order to work properly, is to create a sacrificial surface between two metal surfaces. Aside from a wrist pin, where in the 5.4 DOHC do you have metal to metal contact that requires [B][I][U]excessive[/U][/I][/B] amounts of anti-wear additives in order to resist scoring? (Excessive being the key word here). I can't recall where I saw it, but I know a few years back (probably longer than a few because it was when I was building small block Chevy engines) I found some research published by a couple of engineers from GM that worked on the original ZR1 engine. They did extensive testing on engine oil and ZDDP levels and determined that quantities of ZDDP equal to 600-800 ppm phosphorus were more than sufficient for most high performance "roller" engines, "except for break-in of flat tappet cams or OHC followers with high spring pressures." SO, even if you doubled that number, 1000-1600 PPM should easily be enough to keep anti-wear characteristics of group IV base stock engine oil serviceable for extended lengths of time. So why on earth would you need to add ZDDP to motor oil that already contains "no less than 2200 PPM" right out of the bottle? Unless I'm misunderstanding your last post?:shrug: ZDDP additives above and beyond what’s already in the bottle, were (and still are) used for engine break in lubricants on pushrod engines because the pressure at the cam lobe is extremely high as specially when the cam, lifters, rocker faces and valve heads are still "seating" during the break in process. Hence also, the use of copious amounts of engine assembly lube during the assembly process. This is why most cam break in procedures are what they are. However, overhead cams with roller followers have nowhere near the lobe surface pressure that flat tappet cams and lifters have and require a completely different break-in procedure. While ZDDP is still, in my opinion, the best anti-wear additive available in readily available engine oils today; For the GT500 engine imparticular over using it is #1 not necessary #2 not cost effective and #3 counterproductive in that the ash and soot it creates is destructive over time to emission control devices and also proven to lend to increased sludge and carbon build up inside the crank case. Like most things in the world, too much of a good thing is not always a good thing. :beer: [/QUOTE]
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