Thanks!
Here's a Question: About Ford! And the 1999 Cobra recall.
- Thread starter SonterraSVT
- Start date
SonterraSVT,
This is not meant to be a flame, just some good advice.
This comes from a obsessive compulsive (me)
If the horsepower thing has you so worried, even after a mountain of data to support the fact that the 03 is underated. Do not buy one. You will most likely go insane worring about CAi's, Cat back systems and I do not even want to think about what a pully purchase would do to you.
sqidd
This is not meant to be a flame, just some good advice.
This comes from a obsessive compulsive (me)
If the horsepower thing has you so worried, even after a mountain of data to support the fact that the 03 is underated. Do not buy one. You will most likely go insane worring about CAi's, Cat back systems and I do not even want to think about what a pully purchase would do to you.
sqidd
Sonterra: Any good desktop performance calculator will tell you that bone stock cars that weigh 3800+ pounds (car + skinny driver) will need the power that nearly all the production 2003 SVT Cobras are claiming to perform as they do - well in excess of 410 BHP.
I am a member of the SAE and have lots of good info available from their website database. Here is a layman's primer on topic. The SAE has specifications for all sorts of automotive testing - they are usually in the form of J followed by a number: J-1213 for example. There is an SAE protocol for mfr testing and specification of engine power in modern cars.: among other things, it has to have all accessories attached, smog devices, standard cooling system parts, standard ignition.
That is Brake Horsepower BTW - that should keep you going for another 20 posts at least! ;-)
Muscle car owners love to brag about horsepower. A 1969 Ford Torino Cobra comes equipped with a 360 hp engine. A 1974 Pontiac Catalina comes standard with 155 hp engine. Which car would you rather own? If you like to read classified ads for cars, (and who doesn't) you may notice that older cars seem to have higher horsepower engines. This really isn't true. Although the Cobra most definitely has a more powerful engine than the Catalina, the two horsepower ratings are not representing power the same way.
Up until 1971, engines were listed with what is called brake horsepower (Bhp) Brake horsepower is a calculation where the engine horsepower is measured at the point of output with no load from a chassis or any accessories and with fuel and ignition operations under ideal conditions. Brake horsepower is often called gross horsepower today. This figure was often used for advertising purposes up to 1971. Mfrs. would often run headers or open exhausts, set the timing specifically for high power with no vacuum advance, use external cooling systems and pumps to reduce parasitic drag, etc.
An accessory is anything attached to the engine, by any means, which is not required for basic engine operation. By this definition, this would include a power steering pump, smog pump, air conditioning compressor and an alternator.
Ideal conditions, often called laboratory conditions, are standardized settings for use during horsepower measurement. During the 1960s they consisted of a barometric pressure of 29.92 Hg and a temperature of 60 degrees F.
Net horsepower, also called road horsepower, (Rhp) is a calculation where horsepower is measured after the load from a chassis and accessories. Essentially, this is the power available at the drive wheel or wheels of a vehicle. This type of horsepower is also called SAE net horsepower.
The SAE or Society of Automotive Engineers is a group responsible for setting various standards within the automobile manufacturing industry. Founded in 1905, the SAE publishes many new, revised, and reaffirmed standards each year in three categories: Ground Vehicle Standards, Aerospace Standards, and Aerospace Material Specifications. Standards allow entire countries to talk to each other in a common language.
I am a member of the SAE and have lots of good info available from their website database. Here is a layman's primer on topic. The SAE has specifications for all sorts of automotive testing - they are usually in the form of J followed by a number: J-1213 for example. There is an SAE protocol for mfr testing and specification of engine power in modern cars.: among other things, it has to have all accessories attached, smog devices, standard cooling system parts, standard ignition.
That is Brake Horsepower BTW - that should keep you going for another 20 posts at least! ;-)
Muscle car owners love to brag about horsepower. A 1969 Ford Torino Cobra comes equipped with a 360 hp engine. A 1974 Pontiac Catalina comes standard with 155 hp engine. Which car would you rather own? If you like to read classified ads for cars, (and who doesn't) you may notice that older cars seem to have higher horsepower engines. This really isn't true. Although the Cobra most definitely has a more powerful engine than the Catalina, the two horsepower ratings are not representing power the same way.
Up until 1971, engines were listed with what is called brake horsepower (Bhp) Brake horsepower is a calculation where the engine horsepower is measured at the point of output with no load from a chassis or any accessories and with fuel and ignition operations under ideal conditions. Brake horsepower is often called gross horsepower today. This figure was often used for advertising purposes up to 1971. Mfrs. would often run headers or open exhausts, set the timing specifically for high power with no vacuum advance, use external cooling systems and pumps to reduce parasitic drag, etc.
An accessory is anything attached to the engine, by any means, which is not required for basic engine operation. By this definition, this would include a power steering pump, smog pump, air conditioning compressor and an alternator.
Ideal conditions, often called laboratory conditions, are standardized settings for use during horsepower measurement. During the 1960s they consisted of a barometric pressure of 29.92 Hg and a temperature of 60 degrees F.
Net horsepower, also called road horsepower, (Rhp) is a calculation where horsepower is measured after the load from a chassis and accessories. Essentially, this is the power available at the drive wheel or wheels of a vehicle. This type of horsepower is also called SAE net horsepower.
The SAE or Society of Automotive Engineers is a group responsible for setting various standards within the automobile manufacturing industry. Founded in 1905, the SAE publishes many new, revised, and reaffirmed standards each year in three categories: Ground Vehicle Standards, Aerospace Standards, and Aerospace Material Specifications. Standards allow entire countries to talk to each other in a common language.
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sqidd,
hehe, nah, I have my answers, the horse power is the not the issue per say, it was the information given. I just wanted to understand the Horsepower deal. I am convinced. I was not going to complain about it, just trying to understand, which I think these forums are for undertanding and learning.
I am still going to buy the cobra, and go with the recommendations from these thread concerning Mods. I am going to stay with the basics, CAI, Exhaust x-pipe & catback, K&N thats about it, if I deside to do them.
Truth is I may not do any mods, since I have never been in a vehicle with over 300+HP. I drive from 0-100 about 15 times a day, and always driving high speeds to emergencies on long country roads. I know speed and handling and I have even gone to a few professional driving schools (one on a track). I will not have a problem with the cobra. The torque, yea, I will have to learn to deal with, which should not take long.
hehe, nah, I have my answers, the horse power is the not the issue per say, it was the information given. I just wanted to understand the Horsepower deal. I am convinced. I was not going to complain about it, just trying to understand, which I think these forums are for undertanding and learning.
I am still going to buy the cobra, and go with the recommendations from these thread concerning Mods. I am going to stay with the basics, CAI, Exhaust x-pipe & catback, K&N thats about it, if I deside to do them.
Truth is I may not do any mods, since I have never been in a vehicle with over 300+HP. I drive from 0-100 about 15 times a day, and always driving high speeds to emergencies on long country roads. I know speed and handling and I have even gone to a few professional driving schools (one on a track). I will not have a problem with the cobra. The torque, yea, I will have to learn to deal with, which should not take long.
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Thanks for the posts, I did not get flamed to bad, lol
You guys, all who own `30 Cobras, are the reason I am sticking with the monster, or "Terminator" as many of you describe it. Everyone has been extremely generous giving me imput. And I have learned more in 3 weeks, from everyone, then I have since I was 16 dreaming about owning a Cobra.
Again Thanks, Yea I sound like a newb, but wait until I get my `03 and drive for a while, I will blend into the treading well enough.
You guys, all who own `30 Cobras, are the reason I am sticking with the monster, or "Terminator" as many of you describe it. Everyone has been extremely generous giving me imput. And I have learned more in 3 weeks, from everyone, then I have since I was 16 dreaming about owning a Cobra.
Again Thanks, Yea I sound like a newb, but wait until I get my `03 and drive for a while, I will blend into the treading well enough.
Cobra'03
That was an awsome read! Gross and Net, simular to paychecks before and after taxes. Thats really good information, and first time to read that.
So for the `03 Cobra
Gross = 390 hp
Net= +\- 360hp, due to the other components needed to run.
(Which many others posted on this tread.)
Ahh..Now it is all coming together! This is cool!
That was an awsome read! Gross and Net, simular to paychecks before and after taxes. Thats really good information, and first time to read that.
So for the `03 Cobra
Gross = 390 hp
Net= +\- 360hp, due to the other components needed to run.
(Which many others posted on this tread.)
Ahh..Now it is all coming together! This is cool!
have you read any of the postings on this site? these cars are awesome. ford really did their homework. this car will smoke a c5 vet and give the zo6 a good run stock for stock. maybe you should stick to your girlfriends rice burner
:loser:
:loser:
Not quite time for recess....but you are getting there young Jedi.
It is not just the accessories - there are parasitic losses in the drivetrain (shaft, universal joints, differential, lubricating fluids, etc.)
For our cars, about 15%. Divide the "Expected Result" in the 1999 dyno test by .85 and what will you get? That's right, 320 HP, the advertised power level bogey that Ford missed on the first attempt in the 1999 Cobras.
BON is a good source of news, but they have baggage issues with Ford - there was and still is a lot of bitterness over Ford's heavy handed attempt to suppress the truth about the 1999 Cobras, and the F150 HD radiator incident. Ford filed a and obtain a temporary injunction back in the 1999 model year fiasco to have BON shut down - it was lifted only after BIN had a hearing and showed the judge the internal documents it had recieved (apparently from disgruntled SVT engineers) about the "problems" of the under-powered Cobras.
That actually is good for us - Ford took tremendous heat from enthiusiasts in 1999-2000, and learned their lessons - there was no way in hell that they were going to make a car with 1 newton-meter less power than they claimed. No way. That is one reason why we have received cars with so much REAL power, and why any issue of quality in these cars will be handled with care - one reason there may be Quality Holds - let the idiots in the other Forums make fun - this heightened sense of quality makes me feel much better.
The C5 Corvettes had a known problem with clutch hydraulics overheating due to proximity to exhaust manifolds - this was identifie dearly in production, but The General did not hold them babies up - off to the dealers they went, leaving owners to Beta_test.
It is not just the accessories - there are parasitic losses in the drivetrain (shaft, universal joints, differential, lubricating fluids, etc.)
For our cars, about 15%. Divide the "Expected Result" in the 1999 dyno test by .85 and what will you get? That's right, 320 HP, the advertised power level bogey that Ford missed on the first attempt in the 1999 Cobras.
BON is a good source of news, but they have baggage issues with Ford - there was and still is a lot of bitterness over Ford's heavy handed attempt to suppress the truth about the 1999 Cobras, and the F150 HD radiator incident. Ford filed a and obtain a temporary injunction back in the 1999 model year fiasco to have BON shut down - it was lifted only after BIN had a hearing and showed the judge the internal documents it had recieved (apparently from disgruntled SVT engineers) about the "problems" of the under-powered Cobras.
That actually is good for us - Ford took tremendous heat from enthiusiasts in 1999-2000, and learned their lessons - there was no way in hell that they were going to make a car with 1 newton-meter less power than they claimed. No way. That is one reason why we have received cars with so much REAL power, and why any issue of quality in these cars will be handled with care - one reason there may be Quality Holds - let the idiots in the other Forums make fun - this heightened sense of quality makes me feel much better.
The C5 Corvettes had a known problem with clutch hydraulics overheating due to proximity to exhaust manifolds - this was identifie dearly in production, but The General did not hold them babies up - off to the dealers they went, leaving owners to Beta_test.
I drive my evidence any time I want to. Get real man. Buy the car and dont worry about it
:burn:
:burn:
forane2001,
Who flamed him to get him riled up?
I do read the other posts.
I do not classify a unmoded toyota Celica GTS, driven by my Fiancee a ricer. NO MODS, no stickers, no rear spoiler, its a car used to and from work.
And I am going to continue with the purchase. Which I post previously.
You are correct these vehicle are Awsome!
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