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Rear Suspension Upgrade In Progress (Powdercoat Inside!!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Taz" data-source="post: 10437866" data-attributes="member: 2127"><p>Fair enough. But I’d bet that you’d lose that bet, so what have we just accomplished? “Barely noticeable” is still “some,” which is not “none.” QED</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, I’ve seen your videos, but I consider them unrealistic for two obvious reasons:</p><p></p><p>(1) The range of motion in my car’s rear suspension is only a few inches. Your video shows someone trying to achieve what appears to be 4WD suspension travel with that IRS, which I think is rather absurd.</p><p></p><p>(2) Just exactly how much influence is a “bound up” rubber bushing really going to exert on a 600 to 800 lb/inch spring and matched damper? I believe the contribution of rubber bushing to that equation is going to be negligible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Mass-produced bushings of any material are cheap for manufacturers to use. It’s all about the economy of scale. Ford and the other auto makers don’t use rubber because it’s cheaper. They use rubber for the reason I noted earlier: broader market appeal due to better isolation. They consider rubber the most suitable material to achieve that goal. As for the performance compromise, I’ve already noted that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That’s completely non sequitur. How you arrived at that analogy is beyond me. My point was that we all have different tolerance limits with respect to the level of NVH we consider acceptable, and young bones tend to be more forgiving than old ones.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you appear to have missed my point, so I’ll spell it out. I wasn’t trying to compare CC plates with Delrin bushings. My point was that for any given suspension mod, there are those who will swear up and down that there’s <strong>no difference</strong> in ride quality or isolation, when there is, in fact, a very real difference. Whether such an erroneous proclamation arises out of a lack of perception or an intentional effort to deceive or some other reason, it is nonetheless erroneous. Perception varies, but you can’t change objective, measurable reality.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, a lot of factors come into play. Tire noise increases with speed. Wind noise increases with speed, regardless of whether the windows are up or down. Engine noise increases due to higher RPM, etc. They are all additive with regard to the net masking effect, and they all increase with speed. (I’d be happy to loan you my SPL meter so you can confirm this.) But gear whine wasn’t the crux of my statement. (In fact, I don’t seem to have mentioned gear whine at all in the statement you quoted.) The statement you quoted was directed at the increase in overall suspension NVH, not elevated gear whine.</p><p></p><p>Now, be truthful here. In your personal experience, when does a car with solid bushings sound the most like a bucket of bolts? When it’s ripping along at high speed, or when it’s bumping from one tar strip to the next at low speeds? The correct answer is the latter, not the former situation. That’s the point I was trying to make, and that’s the plain old reality of it. If this isn’t true for you, then you and I are obviously not sharing the same reality.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So basically, it looks like you’re recommending loading up the car with sound deadener and/or masking the increased noise level with something even noisier, i.e. a loud exhaust. I think I’ll pass. Besides, reducing the noise level addresses only one aspect of NVH. It does nothing to counteract vibration and harshness, both of which are also elevated by less compliant bushings.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>”Right away, I know he has to have a fairly loud exhaust to make this statement.”</em></strong> </p><p></p><p>Exactly my point. You know as well as I that the noise level in his cabin has increased, but some other ambient noise is masking it. His perception is that his noise level hasn't increased, but that's not the reality of his situation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just as I have said before, solid bushings are worth the accompanying increased NVH to some, maybe even many. From what I've read, most of your customers here on SVTP seem very satisfied, and your customer service appears second to none. Kudos to you for that. But I still don't think solid bushings are suitable for everyone. As I’ve already noted, and as you appear to agree, we all have different tolerance limits. We also have different needs, wants, and expectations where our cars are concerned.</p><p></p><p>For those who need/want solid bushings, I believe yours is certainly the definitive solution. Nonetheless, I'd wager that, in addition to the few who bought your kit and removed it, there were many others who simply never bought it to begin with, because they anticipated that it wouldn’t suit them. Do you suppose that's possible? I certainly don't know 1000+ people, but I have numerous friends who would never seriously consider solid bushings for their street cars, plus two who tried them and couldn't live with them. I probably also know some folks who run them on the street and love them, but I can't think of one.</p><p></p><p>Please don’t hurt me. I’m not trying to talk anyone out of buying your fine products. I’m just trying to point out that they do not enjoy universal appeal. But then, I doubt anyone makes a product that pleases all of the people all of the time.</p><p></p><p>:beer::thumbsup:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Taz, post: 10437866, member: 2127"] Fair enough. But I’d bet that you’d lose that bet, so what have we just accomplished? “Barely noticeable” is still “some,” which is not “none.” QED Yes, I’ve seen your videos, but I consider them unrealistic for two obvious reasons: (1) The range of motion in my car’s rear suspension is only a few inches. Your video shows someone trying to achieve what appears to be 4WD suspension travel with that IRS, which I think is rather absurd. (2) Just exactly how much influence is a “bound up” rubber bushing really going to exert on a 600 to 800 lb/inch spring and matched damper? I believe the contribution of rubber bushing to that equation is going to be negligible. Mass-produced bushings of any material are cheap for manufacturers to use. It’s all about the economy of scale. Ford and the other auto makers don’t use rubber because it’s cheaper. They use rubber for the reason I noted earlier: broader market appeal due to better isolation. They consider rubber the most suitable material to achieve that goal. As for the performance compromise, I’ve already noted that. That’s completely non sequitur. How you arrived at that analogy is beyond me. My point was that we all have different tolerance limits with respect to the level of NVH we consider acceptable, and young bones tend to be more forgiving than old ones. Again, you appear to have missed my point, so I’ll spell it out. I wasn’t trying to compare CC plates with Delrin bushings. My point was that for any given suspension mod, there are those who will swear up and down that there’s [B]no difference[/B] in ride quality or isolation, when there is, in fact, a very real difference. Whether such an erroneous proclamation arises out of a lack of perception or an intentional effort to deceive or some other reason, it is nonetheless erroneous. Perception varies, but you can’t change objective, measurable reality. Yes, a lot of factors come into play. Tire noise increases with speed. Wind noise increases with speed, regardless of whether the windows are up or down. Engine noise increases due to higher RPM, etc. They are all additive with regard to the net masking effect, and they all increase with speed. (I’d be happy to loan you my SPL meter so you can confirm this.) But gear whine wasn’t the crux of my statement. (In fact, I don’t seem to have mentioned gear whine at all in the statement you quoted.) The statement you quoted was directed at the increase in overall suspension NVH, not elevated gear whine. Now, be truthful here. In your personal experience, when does a car with solid bushings sound the most like a bucket of bolts? When it’s ripping along at high speed, or when it’s bumping from one tar strip to the next at low speeds? The correct answer is the latter, not the former situation. That’s the point I was trying to make, and that’s the plain old reality of it. If this isn’t true for you, then you and I are obviously not sharing the same reality. So basically, it looks like you’re recommending loading up the car with sound deadener and/or masking the increased noise level with something even noisier, i.e. a loud exhaust. I think I’ll pass. Besides, reducing the noise level addresses only one aspect of NVH. It does nothing to counteract vibration and harshness, both of which are also elevated by less compliant bushings. [B][I]”Right away, I know he has to have a fairly loud exhaust to make this statement.”[/I][/B] Exactly my point. You know as well as I that the noise level in his cabin has increased, but some other ambient noise is masking it. His perception is that his noise level hasn't increased, but that's not the reality of his situation. Just as I have said before, solid bushings are worth the accompanying increased NVH to some, maybe even many. From what I've read, most of your customers here on SVTP seem very satisfied, and your customer service appears second to none. Kudos to you for that. But I still don't think solid bushings are suitable for everyone. As I’ve already noted, and as you appear to agree, we all have different tolerance limits. We also have different needs, wants, and expectations where our cars are concerned. For those who need/want solid bushings, I believe yours is certainly the definitive solution. Nonetheless, I'd wager that, in addition to the few who bought your kit and removed it, there were many others who simply never bought it to begin with, because they anticipated that it wouldn’t suit them. Do you suppose that's possible? I certainly don't know 1000+ people, but I have numerous friends who would never seriously consider solid bushings for their street cars, plus two who tried them and couldn't live with them. I probably also know some folks who run them on the street and love them, but I can't think of one. Please don’t hurt me. I’m not trying to talk anyone out of buying your fine products. I’m just trying to point out that they do not enjoy universal appeal. But then, I doubt anyone makes a product that pleases all of the people all of the time. :beer::thumbsup: [/QUOTE]
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