Bumpsteer, What is it?

[1995COBRA-R]

This car has the optional Eibach adjustable coil overs, I guess the bushing are what ever comes with them? or are the OEM bushings re-used?

Robert,
I don't have a clue. Usually, an aftermarket coilover (or shock) will not include a bushing. A guy would order (or not) a complete set of bushings that would replace all of the bushings in the front suspension (coilover, sway bar, steering rack...).

An adjustable coilover, to me, means that you can adjust the ride height. Of course, this could change corner weights, bumpsteer, camber...

However, it may mean "adjustable" as it relates to coilover damper (shock) valving. You may remember the 95R has factory adjustable Koni shocks. This just makes the shock stiffer or less stiff.

I have not even looked at the car when it is sitting on level ground, maybe the angle is fine.

You need to look when the car is on a perfectly level surface. I did a laser level in my garage (which looked level). All three sides were out, the worst being 1.72" low.

The main reason for the alignment is to pull the passenger side tire in at the top.

Lowering a Mustang causes negative camber. Here is what negative looks like when looking at the front of the car:
/---\ (its good for racing but will wear out the inside of each tire on the street)
You seem to be describing positive camber in one side?
\----/ (its good for nothing ;-) ).

One other question.................my Shelby tubed lower control arms have poly bushings, am I making a mistake by installing these?

I think all lower control arms already have a bushing pressed in? I don't think this one change will hurt ride quality.

Another view...........There is no room at all to move these 335/30's inward.

Gary can do it. :-D

My car runs 6.00 X 15 Blue Streaks on the rear (10.6" wide). The "big tire" guys run 7.00 X 15 tires (12.0").

He sends to the diff out and cuts out ~1 1/2" from the center of each axle housing. He makes shorter axles. Presto, plenty of room for bigger tires (and the required bigger wheels). ;-)

Here:

Robert, I don't know the specs on a GT500/GT500SS. Bruce will know more since he has spent a lot of time underneath one. :thumbsup:

 

[ac427cobra]

You seem to be describing positive camber in one side?
\----/ (its good for nothing ;-) ).

Aw......c'mon Doc, did you ever see the positive camber the Nascar teams run on the left front! ;-)oke:

So it is good for something!!!!!

 

[1995COBRA-R]

Aw......c'mon Doc, did you ever see the positive camber the Nascar teams run on the left front! ;-)oke:

I forgot. :shrug:

But Robert has some on the RF. :-D I guess a little LF positive camber is good when you want to win the Daytona 500? ;-)

 

[Robert M]

Robert,
I don't have a clue. Usually, an aftermarket coilover (or shock) will not include a bushing. A guy would order (or not) a complete set of bushings that would replace all of the bushings in the front suspension (coilover, sway bar, steering rack...).

An adjustable coilover, to me, means that you can adjust the ride height. Of course, this could change corner weights, bumpsteer, camber...

However, it may mean "adjustable" as it relates to coilover damper (shock) valving. You may remember the 95R has factory adjustable Koni shocks. This just makes the shock stiffer or less stiff.


You need to look when the car is on a perfectly level surface. I did a laser level in my garage (which looked level). All three sides were out, the worst being 1.72" low.


Lowering a Mustang causes negative camber. Here is what negative looks like when looking at the front of the car:
/---\ (its good for racing but will wear out the inside of each tire on the street)
You seem to be describing positive camber in one side?
\----/ (its good for nothing ;-) ).


I think all lower control arms already have a bushing pressed in? I don't think this one change will hurt ride quality.



Gary can do it. :-D

My car runs 6.00 X 15 Blue Streaks on the rear (10.6" wide). The "big tire" guys run 7.00 X 15 tires (12.0").

He sends to the diff out and cuts out ~1 1/2" from the center of each axle housing. He makes shorter axles. Presto, plenty of room for bigger tires (and the required bigger wheels). ;-)

Here:

Robert, I don't know the specs on a GT500/GT500SS. Bruce will know more since he has spent a lot of time underneath one. :thumbsup:

-----------------------------------------------

I believe that when this car had the Eibachs installed, they removed the original OEM strut bushing and bracket and installed them on the coil over struts. I attempted to buy the 2011 GT500 w/Perf. Package strut bushing and bracket assy. for each side today. No one had them and they have to be sent from the vendor when ordered through Ford parts.

The adjustible part of these Eibachs is ride height.

I talk to the Ford tech who will be working on my car on Monday morning, he said that he also has used the offset bushings in the rack to get the tie rod ends more in line on Mustangs that have been lowered.

As for the rear tires, it will require the inner fender wells to be cut, moved inward and rewelded, I am up against them, or at least very close. I also have just 1/2" between the rear sway bar and tire on each side, and about the same between the rear lower contol arm and the inside of the tire. There is no more room inward without major surgery.

It looks like the tubed lower control arms are a "go" for install.

R

 

[tomshep]

Rob,

I'm not sure what your goal is with the car but unless you plan on tracking it you are putting mods on that will degrade the ride on the street.

I doubt you have enough bumpsteer to even worry for the driving you are doing. As posted, when you start running serious speed through corners and the suspension is compressing or maybe there are pavement transitions you could feel bumpsteer. Not likely on a driver on the street with potholes, etc.

Call Shelby and ask if these Eibachs are slotted on the lower bolt hole. That is a way to "cheat" to get negative camber out of Mustangs without spending money on c/c plates. It is possible they didn't move that shock to max negative camber before they hit it with an impact.

If you aren't putting a bump-steer gauge on it, as stated the tie rods should be as close to parallel to the a-arm WITH THE CAR SITTING ON THE GROUND as you can get.

Tom

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

It looks like the tubed lower control arms are a "go" for install.

R

That looks like a nice piece. The red bushing shape looks like poly, and the white bushing looks like it might be Delrin, although most of my Delrin bushings are black, I have seen other colors.

The front suspension geometry on the 2005 and up Mustangs looks remarkably close to late model Porsche lower front arms. Both the Cayman and the 911 based cars I looked at were both also McPherson strut with a reverse L lower front arm.

What ever it is, it sure is leaps and bounds ahead of the design used on our SN95 cars. That new BOSS and 2011 GT500s are not slow on track! Even the 2011 V6 Mustang beat the Subbie STI at VIR in the car and driver lightning lap shoot out.(while spending 15 seconds per lap up on the vehicle speed limiter)

 

[Robert M]

Rob,

I'm not sure what your goal is with the car but unless you plan on tracking it you are putting mods on that will degrade the ride on the street.

I doubt you have enough bumpsteer to even worry for the driving you are doing. As posted, when you start running serious speed through corners and the suspension is compressing or maybe there are pavement transitions you could feel bumpsteer. Not likely on a driver on the street with potholes, etc.

Call Shelby and ask if these Eibachs are slotted on the lower bolt hole. That is a way to "cheat" to get negative camber out of Mustangs without spending money on c/c plates. It is possible they didn't move that shock to max negative camber before they hit it with an impact.

If you aren't putting a bump-steer gauge on it, as stated the tie rods should be as close to parallel to the a-arm WITH THE CAR SITTING ON THE GROUND as you can get.

Tom

Thank you for your reply Tom.

A car show car, a car that will go fast straight and handle well, and most of all a car that looks nice and has creature comforts, all of this @ 4K lbs., that is the goal.

No, my suspension will not be extended excessively, not compressed excessively, that is why I am now leaning toward the offset bushings in the rack to compensate for the lowering and get the the tie rods where they are supposed to be in relation to the spindles.

I already have the CC's from Shelby, I bought them about 1-1/2 ago. Just now have I gotten to the point of getting the front in line, but now is the time.

This whole alignment issue stems from what you see below..............

The drivers side.

The passenger side.

When I had the 255/35's on the front the tires were more narrow and this difference was there, but not as pronounced. Now that I have installed 275/35's on the front, with the same Alcoa 9" wheels, the difference is visible. Since I now need to get this right tire pulled in at the top, I thought I would get some of the suspension items installed that I had purchased over the last two years when the Shelby Store had sales on their parts.

I do not know if the right side tire is sticking out because the slot/travel in that lower strut hole is at its limit? or if it was just "eye balled" after the installation at Shelby and needs to be adjusted on a machine. I wouldn't mind the drivers side also being pulled in just slightly at the top, but that side is not the big deal, it is the passenger that really sticks out.

R

 

[ac427cobra]

I do not know if the right side tire is sticking out because the slot/travel in that lower strut hole is at its limit? or if it was just "eye balled" after the installation at Shelby and needs to be adjusted on a machine. I wouldn't mind the drivers side also being pulled in just slightly at the top, but that side is not the big deal, it is the passenger that really sticks out.

R

Robert:

If you don't have one already, you need an adjustable panhard bar to move that rear axle over. What you're seeing is typical on lowered cars that don't have an adjustable panhard bar.

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[Robert M]

Robert:

If you don't have one already, you need an adjustable panhard bar to move that rear axle over. What you're seeing is typical on lowered cars that don't have an adjustable panhard bar.

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

There was a Granatelli adj. panhard bar installed as part of the Super Snake conversion. The right side tire is straight up in comparision to the left side that tilts inward slightly at the top.

R

 

[1995COBRA-R]

You gotta like a guy that is modifying a $80K car! :burnout:

The adjustable part of these Eibachs is ride height.

Why not just use this to lower the front a bit?

..he said that he also has used the offset bushings in the rack to get the tie rod ends more in line on Mustangs that have been lowered.

I didn't know this also worked on a S197. I used these on my 1994 Cobra. In 1997, I lowered it (springs), installed the off-set steering rack bushings, MM camber-plates, set the camber/caster and toe (I liked 1/16" of toe-in), roll-bar, harness, 95R wheels, headers, and bought some Hoosier tires. Then took it to Sebring:

It won a few trophies.

It looks like the tubed lower control arms are a "go" for install.

Nice.

Call Shelby and ask if these Eibachs are slotted on the lower bolt hole. That is a way to "cheat" to get negative camber out of Mustangs without spending money on c/c plates. It is possible they didn't move that shock to max negative camber before they hit it with an impact.

Tom,
Don't you need to "open up" the upper mount with a die-grinder?

...a car that will go fast straight and handle well, and most of all a car that looks nice and has creature comforts, all of this @ 4K lbs., that is the goal.

It already does that. :-D

This whole alignment issue stems from what you see below..............

The drivers side.

The passenger side.

...but that side is not the big deal, it is the passenger that really sticks out.

R,
That looks like a toe-out situation to me.

The LF looks straight. The RF looks toe'd out.

I can make some detailed pictures of my garage alignment system if you like.

There was a Granatelli adj. panhard bar installed as part of the Super Snake conversion. The right side tire is straight up in comparison to the left side that tilts inward slightly at the top.

R.,
The panhard is behind the rear axle. The rear stuff looks good to go to me. Here is a picture of the panhard bar on my 2011 car (the panhard is in front of the rear sway bar):

Another thing, Robert. You should be very sure that the mechanic at the Ford dealer knows about modifications and how to adjust the settings from stock to modified.

Even I have helped people straighten out mistakes done at high cost from someone who didn't know what they are doing.

Once my cars had more complicated modifications and more speed, I handed over the car to Gary Jones. Now, when he sees me with a wrench in my hand, he says: "Please step away from your car with that wrench. You are not allowed to work on it". :-D

Gary Jones Motorsports, Inc | Vintage Mustang Specialist | Augusta, GA Motorsports Facility - Gary Jones Motorsports | Augusta, GA | Vintage Mustang Specialist

Check out the 95R cars FS. And don't argue with him until you have four Rolex Championship racing watches. ;-)

 

[Robert M]

You gotta like a guy that is modifying a $80K car! :burnout:


Why not just use this to lower the front a bit?


I didn't know this also worked on a S197. I used these on my 1994 Cobra. In 1997, I lowered it (springs), installed the off-set steering rack bushings, MM camber-plates, set the camber/caster and toe (I liked 1/16" of toe-in), roll-bar, harness, 95R wheels, headers, and bought some Hoosier tires. Then took it to Sebring:

It won a few trophies.


Nice.


Tom,
Don't you need to "open up" the upper mount with a die-grinder?


It already does that. :-D


R,
That looks like a toe-out situation to me.

The LF looks straight. The RF looks toe'd out.

I can make some detailed pictures of my garage alignment system if you like.



R.,
The panhard is behind the rear axle. The rear stuff looks good to go to me. Here is a picture of the panhard bar on my 2011 car (the panhard is in front of the rear sway bar):

Another thing, Robert. You should be very sure that the mechanic at the Ford dealer knows about modifications and how to adjust the settings from stock to modified.

Even I have helped people straighten out mistakes done at high cost from someone who didn't know what they are doing.

Once my cars had more complicated modifications and more speed, I handed over the car to Gary Jones. Now, when he sees me with a wrench in my hand, he says: "Please step away from your car with that wrench. You are not allowed to work on it". :-D

Gary Jones Motorsports, Inc | Vintage Mustang Specialist | Augusta, GA Motorsports Facility - Gary Jones Motorsports | Augusta, GA | Vintage Mustang Specialist

Check out the 95R cars FS. And don't argue with him until you have four Rolex Championship racing watches. ;-)

Yes my panhard is directly behind the rear axle. I had it down during the rear 335/30 tire/12" wheel install, it has 1-1/8" lock nuts at each end for adjustment purposes.

I agree with you, it may be the left that is straight up and the right may be out a little at the top. I should have a little bit of room for inward movement at the top. The question is, are the struts slotted? The factory Ford shop manual instructs the technician to slot the lower hole as needed on the OEM strut.

I will know more Monday after we dig into it. It might be as simple as losening to strut bolts and adjusting the top of the tires inward?

R

 

[Cobra-R]

i would highly doubt if anybody on this site besides Gary and myself own a bumpsteer gauge.

You might be surprised. (actually you are right) I've got two of them.

Brian

 

[1995COBRA-R]

I agree with you, it may be the left that is straight up and the right may be out a little at the top....The question is, are the struts slotted? The factory Ford shop manual instructs the technician to slot the lower hole as needed on the OEM strut.

That is a good question.

I've been "grounded" this weekend with a bum knee. I've been searching for new information but only got more confused. ;-)

I will know more Monday after we dig into it. It might be as simple as losening to strut bolts and adjusting the top of the tires inward?

Please take some pictures tomorrow when the car is on a rack. I'd like to see all of the SS suspension and drivetrain modifications.

While it up in the air, I'd like you to write down some part numbers.

You might be surprised.

Not me. ;-)

Brian,
What are your racing plans for 2011?

 

[Robert M]

That is a good question.

I've been "grounded" this weekend with a bum knee. I've been searching for new information but only got more confused. ;-)


Please take some pictures tomorrow when the car is on a rack. I'd like to see all of the SS suspension and drivetrain modifications.

While it up in the air, I'd like you to write down some part numbers.


Not me. ;-)

Brian,
What are your racing plans for 2011?

I have already been told that the insurance policy at the dealership will not allow me to go into the shop...........:cuss:

The suspension mods that were done at the SAI Mod Shop were the front and rear Eibach coil overs, the Eibach front and rear sway bars and the Granatelli panhard bar. The Eibach stuff was an optional cost of $100. The drivetrain got a Dynotech 1pc. alum. driveshaft. They also installed the 6 piston front calipers and 2-pc. rotors as part of the conversion. At that time, the rear 2 pc. rotor upgrade was available only as part of the conversion, and used the stock GT500 single piston rear calipers. Since that time, a 6 piston rear caliper set up has become available along with new 2pc. rotors and all new hardware. I have this rear brake upgrade also, it is going to be one of my next projects on this car.

The 3.6LC Kenne Bell blower shown in the upper left of this post (my avatar) is also a project to deal with at some point in the near future. I have gathered much of the A-N fittings and hose and will swap out the 725 horse 2.8H KB S/C for this larger 3.6 Liquid Cooled unit.

There is a Cooling System Upgrade that has also come out and is offered by Shelby for these cars. It was designed and tested by Vann at Revan Racing, much of the research and datalog info. was gathered at Sebring. It includes a new larger radiator, larger intercooler for the S/C, twin fans for the intercooler and new alum. reservoirs for the radiator, i/c system and p/s. I have that upgrade also.

There is an alum. road race "T" oil pan for the engine with baffling and trapped doors, I have it too, what a Cool piece!! Another project............

The COOL stuff that Shelby offers for these cars never ends...............


From time to time Shelby parts offers 15% off to Team Shelby members. I wait for those sales with my list in hand.



R

 

[Robert M]

That is a good question.

I've been "grounded" this weekend with a bum knee. I've been searching for new information but only got more confused. ;-)


Please take some pictures tomorrow when the car is on a rack. I'd like to see all of the SS suspension and drivetrain modifications.

While it up in the air, I'd like you to write down some part numbers.


Not me. ;-)

Brian,
What are your racing plans for 2011?

I forgot to ask...........what happened to your knee??

One more thing I was going to mention, the tires on this car. Yes, it goes fast, but to me it bordered on dangerous. Shown below is what I have just recently installed and am now getting aligned. The smaller tires shown in the pictures below are 275/35's, that size is what this car came on the rear as part of the Super Snake conversion. This 725 would peel those tires off without even thinking about it, sometimes when you were not expecting it, not good. So my first mod is to get something a little more substantial on the rear and upgrading from 255/35 to 275/35 on the front came with this "upgrade". The rear now has a Viper size 335/30. The car will still peel these off but it goes straight instead of where ever................

another view...............again, the smaller tires in these pictures is what was on the rear.

R

 

[1995COBRA-R]

I have already been told that the insurance policy at the dealership will not allow me to go into the shop...........:cuss:

That sucks.

BTW, I noticed Shelby uses the Maximum Motorsports camber/caster plates. Many of us used MM on SN95 and Fox cars. They were installed on the top of the shock tower.

Here are the instructions for the MM S197 plates (Shelby stamps their name on them). They go under the shock (strut) tower.
http://www.teamshelby.com/shelbystore/docs/caster_camber.pdf

The suspension mods that were done at the SAI Mod Shop were the front and rear Eibach coil overs, the Eibach front and rear sway bars and the Granatelli panhard bar.

I guess it's the Shelby Eibach Pro Coil Over?

These are used as a factory original option for 2007-2009 Shelby GT500 SuperSnakes at the Shelby factory in Las Vegas as well as the Shelby Modification centers.

This stainless steel-bodied coil-over spring/damper package allows drivers the ability to quickly adjust the ride height and corner weight of each individual wheel, giving them the ultimate in flexibility for precise street and track tuning.

Shelby Eibach Pro Coil Over Kit

The drivetrain got a Dynotech 1pc. alum. driveshaft.

Not sure, but I think the one-piece is necessary for any S/C'd car? The stock two-piece tends to want to implode with too much power. ;-)

They also installed the 6 piston front calipers and 2-pc. rotors as part of the conversion. At that time, the rear 2 pc. rotor upgrade was available only as part of the conversion, and used the stock GT500 single piston rear calipers. Since that time, a 6 piston rear caliper set up has become available along with new 2pc. rotors and all new hardware. I have this rear brake upgrade also, it is going to be one of my next projects on this car.

Who makes those brakes. I didn't see them. I didn't see the oil pan either.

I forgot to ask...........what happened to your knee??

It's just a pulled muscle or tendon. I just keep ice on it and try to stay off my feet. I could get used to the wife bringing me a sandwich. :-D

...275/35 on the front came with this "upgrade". The rear now has a Viper size 335/30. The car will still peel these off but it goes straight instead of where ever................

How wide are those tires? Michelin?

What did Shelby do the the diff (i.e., what type of limited slip)?

Does it have any coolers (engine oil, tranny, diff)?

And idea what the spring rates are on the Eibach coilovers?
------
One thing that confuses me is that no one (including FRPP or Shelby parts) gives the exact specs in their catalog.

Example: My '94 Cobra used the FRPP M-5300-C spring set. It's still available. The specs were specific:

• Fits 1979-2004 (except 1999-2004 Cobra).
• .875" lower in front; 0.5" in the rear.
• Spring rates were 650 lb./in. in front; 200/300 in rear.

Stock was 400/160.

If you look at the FRPP catalog, you can find several different "lowering springs/dampers, etc." for the S197. But they don't give any specs (except it lowers the car 1").
Ford Racing Performance Parts

Here is a cool double adjustable race damper (but no specs).
Ford Racing Performance Parts

Here is a 2005-2012 Mustang GT couple handling package (1" drop). No specs.
Ford Racing Performance Parts

Is the spring rate higher (stiffer)? Don't know. Is the package good to go without an adjustable panhard bar? Don't know but doubt it. Do you need camber plates? Don't know but I'd guess so.

Yes, I called FRPP. They don't know either. ;-)

 

[Robert M]

That sucks.

BTW, I noticed Shelby uses the Maximum Motorsports camber/caster plates. Many of us used MM on SN95 and Fox cars. They were installed on the top of the shock tower.

Here are the instructions for the MM S197 plates (Shelby stamps their name on them). They go under the shock (strut) tower.
http://www.teamshelby.com/shelbystore/docs/caster_camber.pdf


I guess it's the Shelby Eibach Pro Coil Over?

Shelby Eibach Pro Coil Over Kit


Not sure, but I think the one-piece is necessary for any S/C'd car? The stock two-piece tends to want to implode with too much power. ;-)


Who makes those brakes. I didn't see them. I didn't see the oil pan either.


It's just a pulled muscle or tendon. I just keep ice on it and try to stay off my feet. I could get used to the wife bringing me a sandwich. :-D


How wide are those tires? Michelin?

What did Shelby do the the diff (i.e., what type of limited slip)?

Does it have any coolers (engine oil, tranny, diff)?

And idea what the spring rates are on the Eibach coilovers?
------
One thing that confuses me is that no one (including FRPP or Shelby parts) gives the exact specs in their catalog.

Example: My '94 Cobra used the FRPP M-5300-C spring set. It's still available. The specs were specific:

• Fits 1979-2004 (except 1999-2004 Cobra).
• .875" lower in front; 0.5" in the rear.
• Spring rates were 650 lb./in. in front; 200/300 in rear.

Stock was 400/160.

If you look at the FRPP catalog, you can find several different "lowering springs/dampers, etc." for the S197. But they don't give any specs (except it lowers the car 1").
Ford Racing Performance Parts

Here is a cool double adjustable race damper (but no specs).
Ford Racing Performance Parts

Here is a 2005-2012 Mustang GT couple handling package (1" drop). No specs.
Ford Racing Performance Parts

Is the spring rate higher (stiffer)? Don't know. Is the package good to go without an adjustable panhard bar? Don't know but doubt it. Do you need camber plates? Don't know but I'd guess so.

Yes, I called FRPP. They don't know either. ;-)

Yes, the CC plates go under the strut tower, not on top like the earlier years. They are the MM units with Shelby branding.

They are called Pro-Street-S. Here is a picture that I added to the Team Shelby forum when someone asked about initial settings for these struts................

The 605 horse Super Snakes did not get the 1pc. Dynotech shaft, only the big h.p. cars.

The tires front and rear are Michelin Pilot Sport PS2's. Michelin specs the rear 335/30 tires at 13.5" including side wall, 12" without, and the fronts at just over 10" including side wall, and just over 9" without.

Ford Racing 3.73's were added at SAI, replacing the 3.31's. Other than that, the OEM carbon fiber clutched posi unit is still in place.

The only coolers are what Ford installed, nothing else was added and as I mentioned previously, now an upgrade cooling system (engine coolant system and S/C system) is available through SA. The cooling system is what really needed attention if you have any hope of keeping the power level up on these cars while pressing them.

I have noticed that also, specs on suspension parts are scarce.

No lower control arm install today. The front bolt that attaches through thr K member will require the rack to be moved. Too much hassle today. The adjustable tie-rod ends were used to straighten the rack to spindle angle.

R