GTO Dreams of a kill

[Orr89rocz]

I am not impressed by these numbers, as the stock ford GT motor makes 550 rwhp

i call bullshit on that.. i have a vid of a GT racing a 600rwhp SS camaro and the camaro pulls it hard...

heres the link.
http://redworm.net/trmin8r/trmin8rvsfordgt.wmv

that car is 450rwhp on motor with a 150shot.. with a 100shot it dyno'd 550rwhp so its at 600 rwhp now. no weight reduction that i know of.. stock ls1 internals

I see you're back on the crack pipe again.

dude, when you gonna realize crack is the shizzle! :rockon: quit hatin on da crack man

anyway, that whole 460 big block thing, was just a made up thing by me... i have no idea what a supercharger would add Cubic inches wise... i just said 460 as it seemed abit far fetched to compare boosted to natural aspirated.

Lingenfelter is good but not the best out there. MANY tuners making 1200hp on twin'd Ls1's/etcs... the fastest LS1 powered cars are procharged and run in the 7's so they are making some damn good power.

but your right, DOHC technology will flow more air... more valves gets more air in so you can make more power at less boost. as long as teh heads are able to flow well with big intake ports like Ls1's.

can we agree on this.... Mod motors are best boosters while LSx's are best NA?? seems fair to me :-D

 

[Orr89rocz]

I didn't even pull the trump card in this NA argument that is the 5.0 cammer, nor will I.

navigator motor is pooo 320 hp :-D ... proves nothing to the LS1's 350 or LS6's 405... GM's 4.8 and 5.3 liter vortec motors are making 300hp with smaller displacement.. the whole smaller displacement vs power arguement is weaksauce.. LS1's will make power no matter what size cuz of the intake and head port design.. it beats out standard NON LS1/NON LT1 small block chevy's with 23 degree heads

the cammer is sweeet. looking at Sean hyland motorsports crate 5.0 cammer, its making like 400-500hp on motor.. pretty sweet but its modded with bigger cams and such... put bigger better stuff on a LS1 and it blows it away.

you still havent answered my question on how big a stroked Modular can be? i am curious, i looked it up and only found a V10 and i only see 4.8's 5.0's and one 5.2 liter. LSx motors can be made into 434 cubic inches.. thats like 7.1-7.2 liters makes 600rwhp NA easy. not going into boosting it or spraying it.

educate me.. thats what i am here for.. i am a car enthusiast

 

[Orr89rocz]

786 rwhp @ 16 PSI factory longblock
818 rwhp @ 5000 RPM's on stock heads, cams, internals
830 rwhp @ 13.6 PSI on C14
891 rwhp @ 16 PSI on C14
990 rwhp @ 20 PSI on C14

http://home.comcast.net/~deezuns/Mods_list.htm

907rwhp/975rwtq on 23 psi on pump gas + methanol spray 366inch LS1
very similar and no race gas

made 636rwhp on 92 octane and 11 psi boost


a guys 6.0 liter GM denali put down 471 at 9psi on pump gas on the STS turbo kit.. its a decent setup.. very neat to have the turbo under the rearend

another LS1 SS with some lid/exhaust/etc and STS kit at 9psi made 470 rwhp adn 528rwtq with the converter not locked up... thats pretty decent and respectable for 9psi i would think. cant really find many kits puttin up 12-20psi.... i have them listed somewhere but whatever its not really important. the numbers come close if not match but i dont think they beat the modular #'s

 

[BLUBLLS]

786 rwhp @ 16 PSI factory longblock
818 rwhp @ 5000 RPM's on stock heads, cams, internals
830 rwhp @ 13.6 PSI on C14
891 rwhp @ 16 PSI on C14
990 rwhp @ 20 PSI on C14

http://home.comcast.net/~deezuns/Mods_list.htm

907rwhp/975rwtq on 23 psi on pump gas + methanol spray 366inch LS1
very similar and no race gas

made 636rwhp on 92 octane and 11 psi boost


a guys 6.0 liter GM denali put down 471 at 9psi on pump gas on the STS turbo kit.. its a decent setup.. very neat to have the turbo under the rearend

another LS1 SS with some lid/exhaust/etc and STS kit at 9psi made 470 rwhp adn 528rwtq with the converter not locked up... thats pretty decent and respectable for 9psi i would think. cant really find many kits puttin up 12-20psi.... i have them listed somewhere but whatever its not really important. the numbers come close if not match but i dont think they beat the modular #'s

Wow thanks for posting that your engine with 3 more psi of boost and 85 more cubes still put down less power

HAHA I just got done reading the nice HUGE list of mods done to the engine of this car, and it isn't even an LSX engine. It's an iron block built to all hell with heads, etc., :loser:

"Wheel To Wheel 366 c.i. iron block, custom Cam Motion split turbo cam 236/231, .601/.594, 115*, Howards steel rods, Mahle custom 26cc dish forged pistons, ARP head & main studs, W2W oil pump, W2W ALL PRO cylinder heads, Comp 921 dual valvesprings, hollow 8mm intake valves, 5/16” inconel exhaust valves, titanium retainers, Manley locks, GM 6.0 head gaskets, 99+ valve covers and truck coil brackets, Z06 Intake, ported, filled and polished stock throttle body, Hypertech 160 degree thermostat, ATI Superdamper"

 

[numbaonestunna]

hmm....

So as I said earlier lets pop a procharger or even a magnuson to an LS engine (any version your choice) put it on 8 psi of boost and dyno it?

What do you think the outcome would be?

Um, a blown up LS engine? That's what I think the outcome would be.

 

[50 BMG]

Lingenfelter is good but not the best out there. MANY tuners making 1200hp on twin'd Ls1's/etcs... the fastest LS1 powered cars are procharged and run in the 7's so they are making some damn good power.

The fastest "LS1" (if you can even call the engine I'm referring to an LS1) is turbocharged and run's 6.9's. 352 CID I believe.

Lingenfelter is good enough. He personally ran 6.9 @ 200+ in a 2.2L turbocharged DOHC GM engine before he died. They knew/know their shit better than any, whether it's on the street or dedicated to the strip.

Gains (if even applicable) from other people are minimal; I'm comparing retail kits available to Joe Public and intended for street use. If you want to compare custom kits...2 words for you: INDUCTION CONCEPTS.

Mod motors are best boosters while LSx's are best NA??

Among factory spec'd engines available right now Ford vs. Chevy...yes that is correct.

With the same amount CID on both engines and both being NA, DOHC will make more power. I've lost count how many ways that has been proven in this thread now.

907rwhp/975rwtq on 23 psi on pump gas + methanol spray 366inch LS1 very similar and no race gas

No, not very similar. You sure do like my one liners, here it is again.

Do the math :lol1:

Methanol = C12. So the fact that this car was on C14 is moot.

Take a look at my quote again:
830 rwhp @ 13.6 PSI on C14
891 rwhp @ 16 PSI on C14
990 rwhp @ 20 PSI on C14

That car I quoted above put down 100 rwhp in a 4 PSI gap, or 25 rwhp per PSI in that range. Add another 3 PSI and that car would put down 1065 rwhp. That's over 150 more horsepower @ the wheels than the LS1 you posted @ 23 PSI. Nevermind the difference in cubes...

As far as the 9 PSI cars you're quoting...again, as I said 3 pages ago, I've seen a 5.4L DOHC in a 2000 R Cobra that puts down over 700rwhp @ 9 PSI on a single turbo.

BTW, cobra R spec 5.4 only has 80 more horsepower at the flywheel than the navigator 5.4 spec engine.

Kinda like a LS1 vs a LS6 no? See why I brought the navigator engine up now? It's our hotter cam/better intake/better head version over the standard, just like the LS6.

Sean hyland motorsports crate 5.0 cammer, its making like 400-500hp on motor

SHM = aftermarket. Factory 5.0 makes very conservative 425 @ crank. If you're not aware, this is an example of conservative to ford: 04 Cobras are factory rated @ 390 flywheel but put down an average of 370 rwhp.

put bigger better stuff on a LS1 and it blows it (5.0 cammer) away

Prove it.

you still havent answered my question on how big a stroked Modular can be?

Ya, I already answered your question. I don't dodge questions. Your question was how much could you stroke a 4.6L. The answer, for all intensive purposes, is 5.0

i am curious... LSx motors can be made into 434 cubic inches.. thats like 7.1-7.2 liters makes 600rwhp NA easy. not going into boosting it or spraying it...educate me.. thats what i am here for.. i am a car enthusiast

I've already told you, you can bore and stroke a OHC engine the same as a pushrod.

This now 43 year old production engine is based on a production 427 high riser short block. It would super safely bore/stroke to 520 CID. I doubt anyone even bothered cause it NA stomps the shit out of everything right out of the crate. On FI, same story...all on carburation I might add.
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~prater/cammer.html

Dodge also was producing a 426 hemi DOHC in 1965 (project A-925). It too was DOHC on a production 426 hemi short block. Dodge scrapped it after pushrod hosers bitched about the massive amounts of power the 427 SOHC was making in NASCAR. Dodge never even got to run the engine on it's own power. Very few people even know about it, search around about it on your own. Dodge only made 2 of them, 1 still exists and I believe is housed in the Garlits drag racing museum. The Dodge DOHC engine would have made a shitload more power than the Ford SOHC engine, which is still to this day, 40+ years later, is the most powerful crate engine ever released for a car in the US.

 

[Orr89rocz]

Factory 5.0 makes very conservative 425 @ crank

what came factory with that? i thought the 5.0 cammer was a stroker setup that you buy, just like a 402inch LS2 stroker assembly..

but still the fact remains a basic 4.6 can only go to 5 liters while the LS1 can go to alot more than that... which makes more bottom end torque and more power overal. mod is sick on power but limited in size while the LS1 can be made into i think 427 on stock block, jsut gotta resleeve it and such... i gotta check up on that for sure tho

and 93 octane plus methanol spray injection isnt like running on pure C14 race gas... the methanol is there to provide abit of protection for the high boost on low octane fuel...kinda like a band aid i hear

and that LS1 is just one example... parish's 408 LS1 put down 538rwhp/610rwtq at 10psi on pump gas

14psi was 637rwhp/716tq
19psi was 881rwhp/968tq pump gas no nitrous
22 was 950rwhp/1033 tq
finally reached 26psi and 1011rwhp/1090tq all on pump gas no nitrous

imagine what it could do on race gas

 

[tv's 03]

and that LS1 is just one example... parish's 408 LS1 put down 538rwhp/610rwtq at 10psi on pump gas

I have seen stock 4.6 DOHC's with exhaust and vortech w/ aftercooler make 488 rwhp on 10psi, and with only 4.6L w/ 93 pump gas

So this guy only got 50 more rwhp out of 125 cubic inches...thats a sad example

 

[50 BMG]

i thought the 5.0 cammer was a stroker setup that you buy, just like a 402inch LS2 stroker assembly.

Its a factory crate.

but still the fact remains a basic 4.6 can only go to 5 liters while the LS1 can go to alot more than that... which makes more bottom end torque and more power overall

Yes I know the facts. I've been speaking them since I dropped in here.

and 93 octane plus methanol spray injection isnt like running on pure C14 race gas... the methanol is there to provide abit of protection for the high boost on low octane fuel...kinda like a band aid i hear

93 + meth...It's close enough for the sake of the argument. All meth does is cool the temps and let you jerk the shit out of the timing...sounds familiar to a 1XX octane fuel eh? Even if the LS1 in question that your defending was on C14 it would still get it's ass handed to it by a 281 CID DOHC engine @ the same boost levels.

and that LS1 is just one example... parish's 408 LS1 put down 538rwhp/610rwtq at 10psi on pump gas

I seriously hope that's not a turbo. It's still pathetic anyways.

My 281 ported eaton puts down ~525/550 @ bled off 13 PSI in 110 degree heat, 1100 ft above sea level. On 91 octane.

finally reached 26psi and 1011rwhp/1090tq all on pump gas no nitrous

Unless you're talkin about a pump that spits out 110 or better...bullshit he runs 26 PSI on 93 or lower.

 

[50 BMG]

i call bullshit on that.. i have a vid of a GT racing a 600rwhp SS camaro and the camaro pulls it hard...

The GT wasn't at 550 RWHP; it had less than 100 miles on it IIRC.

He pulled it hard in the second race cause of torque. Think about it. That 150 shot probably gives him over 700 rwtq.

 

[Orr89rocz]

i still dont believe the ford GT is over 500rwhp stock...close but not quite there. that SS is 200lbs heavier and still ran that GT

anyway

I seriously hope that's not a turbo. It's still pathetic anyways

it is and the thing is, its built and tuned for HIGH boost.. on pump gas... thats why the low end sucks... 10psi and 538 is weak..especially on a 408 incher, but look at 26 psi.. still on pump gas and over 1000rwhp.. thats something else.. the mild cam and such make the low boost numbers abit weak.

i had a great post but this site crashed on me! so i am tryin to put this together again.. ah its frustrating having to retype and remember what i wrote

 

[Orr89rocz]

procharged lsx's

Z06 on 6psi makes 525rwph on 91 octane
C5 vette put down 487 on psi all stock with stock exhaust
another vette put down 599rwhp on 4 psi with stage III heads, 224/228 boost grind cam, 93 octane
SS camaro made 471rwhp on 5psi with all the bolt ons
another SS with bolt ons and stage II heads, 224 cam put down 510 on 5psi

Mach I put down 454 rwhp on 9psi with headers

this 99 cobra with forged pistons/rods made 753rwhp and 1132rwtq!! on 20psi 93 octane.. supposively put down 340rwhp NA

see how it all depends on whats done to the motor? stock motors will need more boost to make the big numbers. soon as you open up a LS1 with the bolt ons and cam/heads, it makes big numbers on low boost. modulars too, the more mods you put on to them, the better they respond to boost

but you can see the LS1 wil do boost just as well

 

[50 BMG]

i still dont believe the ford GT is over 500rwhp stock...close but not quite there.

Believe w/e you want, multiple dyno sheets don't lie. I've seen 2 graphs of off the lot cars with no break-in mileage put down over 510 each in the last 3 or 4 weeks.

it is and the thing is, its build for HIGH boost.. on pump gas... thats why the low end sucks... 10psi and 538 is weak.. but look at 26 psi.. still on pump gas and over 1000rwhp

First off, you need to tell us what that PSI is coming from.

2nd, how is a engine built for "high" boost putting down shit #'s on "low" boost?... espeically when you're trying to tell me he did all those #'s on "pump gas".

10 PSI is not "low boost".

i had a great post but this site crashed on me! so i am tryin to put this together again.. ah its frustrating having to retype and remember what i wrote

Open a MS Word document, copy everything to it before you click submit reply to have this website freeze on you.

see how it all depends on whats done to the motor? stock motors will need more boost to make the big numbers. soon as you open up a LS1 with the bolt ons and cam/heads, it makes big numbers on low boost.

It has little to do with heads/cams compared to where the real gain is coming from; Gen III engines make good #'s on low boost (8 PSI or less) cause they didn't change the compression ratio. You're getting great NA results and average boost results with stock gen III compression ratio's. The high compression ratio is helping more than anything else, including the additional cubes...

Why?

Get above 9 PSI and Gen III's just fall flat on their faces compared to 4.6 or 5.4 DOHC cause they have to change the compression ratio. Review posts 158-160 if you think this is smoke and mirrors.

but you can see the LS1 wil do boost just as well.

No...they don't. The more you say stuff like this the more I assume you have no idea about OHC fundamentals.

I'm going to say this again. OHC engines have all the advantages of a pushrod save 2 things. 1) They are physically bigger. 2) They have more moving parts.

One last time: Compare same CID vs same CID (example: 427 SOHC to 427 pushrod). A OHC engine can make all the "bottom up" (displacement) power a pushrod can. However, a pushrod -CANNOT- make the same amount of "top down" (air flow) power an OHC engine can, NA or FI. All things being equal, a LS1 will not boost as well. In the examples I've shown throughout this thread, even with the additional cubes (in some cases 140 more cubes) it cannot match the power output. The lowest numerical gap in difference will come NA vs NA, but the OHC will still make more power all things equal (displacement, cfm etc...) between the 2 engines. Ford proved this over 40 years ago when they got a naturally aspirated engine banned faster than anyone else in racing history.

Additionally, you're picking and choosing the engines you compare instead of seeking quality examples on both sides of the coin. A 4.6L Modular with a 8.5:1 compression ratio isn't gonna put down shit @ 5 PSI...think about it. Stock longblock 5.4 DOHC puts down 700+ at the wheels in the middle of the phoneix summer @ 9 PSI. Why? Compression ratio is at least 10:1

That Mach 1 you quoted in your last post...you should know that it's either bullshit or there is a serious problem with the tune etc.

 

[Orr89rocz]

All things being equal, a LS1 will not boost as well. In the examples shown throughout this thread, even with the additional cubes (in some cases 140 more cubes) it cannot match the power output. The lowest numerical gap in difference will come NA vs NA, but the OHC will still make more power all things equal (displacement, cfm etc...) between the 2 engines.

yeah i guess all things being equal, same cubes, same compression, same head flow, same everthing, then add same boost, the modular might come out on top, thats expected cuz of the valves.



and those examples i showed clearly match modular numbers.... 510rwhp on 5psi... etc, etc...bump that to 9psi and DAMN. what dont you see about that?

Believe w/e you want, multiple dyno sheets don't lie. I've seen 2 graphs of off the lot cars with no break-in mileage put down over 510 each in the last 3 or 4 weeks.

still dont know how that SS beat it that bad... tq yes. but still... it should have been alot closer than that i would think

That Mach 1 you quoted in your last post...you should know that it's either bullshit or there is a serious problem with the tune etc.

hahah this is what everyone here says.... its like that a mach I on 9spi HAS to be pushing like 700hp or something... come on.. face it.. it just doesnt.. i have found several examples of Mach I making 390-480rwhp on that boost.i've been to mach I registry, and other sites... and yall deny that, and state something must be wrong. :shrug:
one procharged Mach I on 15psi ran 120.89mph in the quarter. the car weighed 3710lbs. so thats about 510-530rwhp according to most calculators

 

[50 BMG]

and those examples i showed clearly match modular numbers.... 510rwhp on 5psi... etc, etc...bump that to 9psi and DAMN. what dont you see about that?

I meant my examples. I edited my previous post for my lack of clarification.

Your examples (or mine) still do not match a stock longblock Cobra R 5.4 @ 9 PSI that puts down over 700 rwhp. I haven't seen a 9 PSI LXX car put down anything near 650, nevermind 700. Again, the 427 TT stage 1 puts down about 630 at the wheels @ 10 PSI, which is right in line with this guy you linked:
http://home.comcast.net/~deezuns/Mods_list.htm

its like that a mach I on 9spi HAS to be pushing like 700hp or something... come on.. face it.. it just doesnt.. i have found several examples of Mach I making 390-480rwhp on that boost.i've been to mach I registry, and other sites... and yall deny that, and state something must be wrong. :shrug:
one procharged Mach I on 15psi ran 120.89mph in the quarter. the car weighed 3710lbs. so thats about 510-530rwhp according to most calculators

If thats truly the case (I don't pay attention to Mach's), then there is something else completely wrong with Mach engines on FI. You should realize that when a stock longblock TT 03 Cobra @ 16 PSI makes the same rwhp as a 427 TT @ 16 PSI.

 

[Orr89rocz]

where is this turbo'd 5.4 on 9psi? i want to see it... i have heard of it before, and i know a guy with one thats puttin out like 1000rwhp now i believe
i bet he has cams, and lots of other work to increase the horse power NA before the turbo swap. just like how those LS1's were doing 600rwhp with 4-5psi on cams and head swap motors


and a 03 cobra motor isnt exactly the same as a mach I motor. the internals are different changing the compression ratio, and i think the cams are different too.

like i said, the power levels are all dependant on whats all done to the motor, compression, cams, headwork, etc... lingenfelters power numbers are kinda weak man

at 10psi he's putting down 630rwhp.. that guy i linked is doing that with a 366 inch motor... thats 61 less inches...

that parish guy had 538 on 10psi on a 408incher... see how it all can vary on whats done to the motor?

 

[50 BMG]

where is this turbo'd 5.4 on 9psi? i want to see it...

480-998-8885. SVC Motorsports.

Ask for Dave. He tuned & dyno'd it.

i bet he has cams, and lots of other work to increase the horse power NA before the turbo swap...

Seeing how I was there with my car swapping out the POS navigator cams in my 04, I'll bet he doesn't. Cobra R spec'd engines don't need swap-outs. They already have the best cams and cfm heads on any OHC Ford currently builds in a production car. Like I said, it's a factory stock longblock.

like i said, the power levels are all dependant on whats all done to the motor, compression, cams, headwork, etc... lingenfelters power numbers are kinda weak man

at 10psi he's putting down 630rwhp.. that guy i linked is doing that with a 366 inch motor... thats 61 less inches...

I can care less about lingenfelter vs whoever's car you're talking about, or what CID and headwork and cam spec etc etc. they did. Whether Joe Todd Racer is close to Lingenfelter or not, they are -all- still considerably behind Ford stock longblocks on equal PSI.

Fact is the point of this argument still seems to escape you... factory longblock 00R/03 cobra engines will at least match & usually put down more rwhp @ equal PSI, with 80 less CID or 140 less CID.

This is my last repsonse in this thread, I'm tired of it.

Unsubcribing.

 

[Orr89rocz]

i guess so

i am done with this also

thanks for ur information, i have learned alot. its been fun