Low dollar solutions for limp mode.

[racebronco2]

I'm still waiting for Carlos to build me a hood. I'm more of a buyer these days.....and less of a fabricator.

Well your going to have to wait til i finish the one for coolcobra. I'll let him post his thought on the hood when he gets out on the track august 9th at willow springs.

 

[Go~RillaSRT]

It's most effective on intercoolers that are air to air due to the low mass of air being easily influenced by the evaporative cooling.

It potentially could help slightly with a water filled H/E or rad but due to the mass of the water, and it's slowness to release it's heat load, I suspect it would take a lot of evaporating water to influence it very much.
At which point it would also pose a visibility and traction issue at large volume releases, which, to me, seems like a potential black flag from the corner workers, who would likely be thinking massive slippery coolant leak.

The whole rub is it not being air to air, and, of course, safety.

If one would run a RAD or H/E w/ such sprayers, running coolant temps close to evaporation temperatures, no flagger would flag a car STEAMING!


They flag cars for things like dropping oil, smoke, slick spots, debris, and track offs....but thats their job.

They know the difference between steam and an oil slick.

In open track days and in many SCCA classes, they allow water spray.

BUT, i totally agree with your point. A air to water cooler will not see similar benefits from a water/alcohol misting setup.

So, we are back to the question. How do we get IAT's down during long sessions.

Im thinking bigger rad. (Width and height) Slower water pump pulley, and either pure water, or that high boil point stuff i am now reading about.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

If one would run a RAD or H/E w/ such sprayers, running coolant temps close to evaporation temperatures, no flagger would flag a car STEAMING!


They flag cars for things like dropping oil, smoke, slick spots, debris, and track offs....but thats their job.

They know the difference between steam and an oil slick.

In open track days and in many SCCA classes, they allow water spray.

BUT, i totally agree with your point. A air to water cooler will not see similar benefits from a water/alcohol misting setup.

So, we are back to the question. How do we get IAT's down during long sessions.
Im thinking bigger rad. (Width and height) Slower water pump pulley, and either pure water, or that high boil point stuff i am now reading about.

The usual limp instigator is engine coolant temp.(though this does eventually effect IAT2s since the valley becomes so hot and the heat travels through the bolts from the heads into the lower intake)

If you do decide on a Terminator I would run it at least a few events mod free (except brake cooling and subframe connectors)to firm up in your mind what YOU FEEL will make the car more enjoyable/fast FOR YOU!

Very few Terminator trackers have gone to the trouble of boxing in the rad, even though most of us know it is VERY needed.(myself included)

A Term vert has a couple disadvantages. Compared to the coupe.
1. they are heavier
2. they require even more stout subframe bracing(which adds to # one)
3. they come with lighter spring rates

There is a link in my sig to my web site at gotstang which lists mods I've done on page 3. The Whipple is certainly optional.:rollseyes

Brake cooling ducts and cooling hoses, and a stout set of subframe connectors should be considered mandatory.

You may find that you don't need a diff cooler. I don't really understand why some IRS cars spew and some don't, mine never has, when I was slower I could see it, but people I respect have been telling me that I'm not slow.
I know the TrueTrac helps some, I also am still running stock 3:55 gears, and I use Royal Purple 75w140 Max Gear lube. The only tracks I've run are TWS and MSR Houston so far.

I believe it's going to come down to the tracks themselves, some may just heat the diff a lot more. You'll have to deal with that as symptoms occur.

Initially for cooling I would drill the stock stat with 4 3/16" holes, reset your fan kick points, build a wider deeper rad air dam, box in the rad and if you can afford it put Evans NPG+ waterless coolant in.

If you up the power or still need additional heat rejection ability an LFP or Fluidyne rad would be a good choice. I run an LFP rad and dual pass H/E.(yet I have not done my rad boxing yet:nonono::kaboom

 

[gcassidy]

Im thinking bigger rad. (Width and height) Slower water pump pulley, and either pure water, or that high boil point stuff i am now reading about.

Elaborate, please? I'm just running H2O with WaterWetter, and runing around 245 after some hot laps.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Elaborate, please? I'm just running H2O with WaterWetter, and runing around 245 after some hot laps.

http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html

NPG+ WATERLESS COOLANT ELIMINATES BOIL OVER, CORROSION AND ELECTROLYSIS
NPG+ OFFERS 'POUR IN' INSTALLATION - BETTER HEAT TRANSFER - AND STILL "SAFE!"


NPG+ is new coolant providing dramatic improvements in heat transfer and viscosity that make the new fluid a "pour-in," not requiring changes to cooling system components. Conversion to NPG+ waterless coolant from the use of conventional antifreeze and water coolant mixes, to take advantage of the benefits of non-aqueous engine cooling, is now simple to accomplish.

NPG+ waterless coolant virtually eliminates boil over in gasoline or diesel engines - the waterless coolant allows engines to tolerate running hotter, without boiling over, and allows the cooling system to run at very low or no pressure. Because there is no water in the system engines operating with NPG+ will be free from corrosion and electrolysis, and the engines will run well no matter how hard they are driven or how hot or cold the environment is.

A blend of non-aqueous ingredients, NPG+ retains all of the benefits of Evans original NPG coolant, while improving upon its thermal conductivity by about 32 percent and reducing its viscosity by about 65 percent. It is perfectly suited for the demands of any hard working engine, and there are no plumbing or pump changes needed to use this coolant.

A cooling system according to Evans technology uses a non-water-based, high boiling point coolant (over 350º) and controls the temperature of the coolant substantially below its boiling point. This is in sharp contrast to conventional water based coolant systems that operate near the boiling point of the coolant. In conventional systems, locally generated coolant vapor may not condense but rather form an insulating barrier between the coolant jacket metal and the liquid coolant, causing hot spots to develop.

Coolant Vapor Condenses Immediately

In Evans' waterless systems, any locally generated vapor is immediately condensed back to liquid coolant and an insulating layer of vapor can't develop.

Another advantage is that cooling system pressure is minimal, prolonging the life of hoses and other components, which lowers replacement and related maintenance costs.

NPG+ works well with liquid-to-liquid oil coolers and radiators. It is important to remember that although the thermal conductivity of water is great, conversely for water vapor it is about zero. Although not a requirement, engines running with NPG+ can be operated, by choice, at higher coolant temperatures while control of metal temperatures is maintained. This fact permits the selection of higher fan control temperatures and less fuel robbing parasitic drag.

NPG+ is ideally suited for handling the extra heat that comes from EGR coolers for NOx emissions control. With increased cooling system load from EGR cooling, conventional coolants can barely handle the extra heat without larger and heavier radiators and/or larger fans that add to parasitic engine losses. NPG+ coolant, held to a temperature well below its boiling point, can successfully transfer all of that heat without requiring larger radiators or fans.

Looking ahead, NPG+ is ideally suited for handling the extra heat that will be coming from the EGR coolers in 2002 model engines for NOx emissions control. With increased cooling system load from the EGR cooling, conventional systems will likely be unable to handle the extra heat without larger and heavier radiators and redesigned engines. NPG+ coolant held to a temperature well below its boiling point, can successfully transfer all of that heat without requiring larger radiators.

 

[racebronco2]

Elaborate, please? I'm just running H2O with WaterWetter, and runing around 245 after some hot laps.

You have an atlantic blue cobra right? You should not be running that hot in a n/a car.

If you local track allows you to run without a hood i would run 1 session to see if the temps were cooler. If the temps are cooler then you have an air management problem menaing that you need some way of getting all that air out from under the hood and probably big hood vents is the answer.

 

[gcassidy]

http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html

NPG+ WATERLESS COOLANT ELIMINATES BOIL OVER, CORROSION AND ELECTROLYSIS
NPG+ OFFERS 'POUR IN' INSTALLATION - BETTER HEAT TRANSFER - AND STILL "SAFE!"


NPG+ is new coolant providing dramatic improvements in heat transfer and viscosity that make the new fluid a "pour-in," not requiring changes to cooling system components. Conversion to NPG+ waterless coolant from the use of conventional antifreeze and water coolant mixes, to take advantage of the benefits of non-aqueous engine cooling, is now simple to accomplish.

NPG+ waterless coolant virtually eliminates boil over in gasoline or diesel engines - the waterless coolant allows engines to tolerate running hotter, without boiling over, and allows the cooling system to run at very low or no pressure. Because there is no water in the system engines operating with NPG+ will be free from corrosion and electrolysis, and the engines will run well no matter how hard they are driven or how hot or cold the environment is.

A blend of non-aqueous ingredients, NPG+ retains all of the benefits of Evans original NPG coolant, while improving upon its thermal conductivity by about 32 percent and reducing its viscosity by about 65 percent. It is perfectly suited for the demands of any hard working engine, and there are no plumbing or pump changes needed to use this coolant.

A cooling system according to Evans technology uses a non-water-based, high boiling point coolant (over 350º) and controls the temperature of the coolant substantially below its boiling point. This is in sharp contrast to conventional water based coolant systems that operate near the boiling point of the coolant. In conventional systems, locally generated coolant vapor may not condense but rather form an insulating barrier between the coolant jacket metal and the liquid coolant, causing hot spots to develop.

Coolant Vapor Condenses Immediately

In Evans' waterless systems, any locally generated vapor is immediately condensed back to liquid coolant and an insulating layer of vapor can't develop.

Another advantage is that cooling system pressure is minimal, prolonging the life of hoses and other components, which lowers replacement and related maintenance costs.

NPG+ works well with liquid-to-liquid oil coolers and radiators. It is important to remember that although the thermal conductivity of water is great, conversely for water vapor it is about zero. Although not a requirement, engines running with NPG+ can be operated, by choice, at higher coolant temperatures while control of metal temperatures is maintained. This fact permits the selection of higher fan control temperatures and less fuel robbing parasitic drag.

NPG+ is ideally suited for handling the extra heat that comes from EGR coolers for NOx emissions control. With increased cooling system load from EGR cooling, conventional coolants can barely handle the extra heat without larger and heavier radiators and/or larger fans that add to parasitic engine losses. NPG+ coolant, held to a temperature well below its boiling point, can successfully transfer all of that heat without requiring larger radiators or fans.

Looking ahead, NPG+ is ideally suited for handling the extra heat that will be coming from the EGR coolers in 2002 model engines for NOx emissions control. With increased cooling system load from the EGR cooling, conventional systems will likely be unable to handle the extra heat without larger and heavier radiators and redesigned engines. NPG+ coolant held to a temperature well below its boiling point, can successfully transfer all of that heat without requiring larger radiators.

Why Jimmy, I've never heard you sound quite so much like a commercial. oke:
I glanced at the web site, and I'll have to look into it more. Know of anyone using it?

You have an atlantic blue cobra right? You should not be running that hot in a n/a car.

If you local track allows you to run without a hood i would run 1 session to see if the temps were cooler. If the temps are cooler then you have an air management problem menaing that you need some way of getting all that air out from under the hood and probably big hood vents is the answer.

Carlos, I know Bright Atlantic Blue is a cool color, but I had no idea it had a factor in how hot the car would run! LOL Sometimes I kill myself. :bash:

Anyway, I should elaborate. At Summit's Shenandoah circuit, I run at 245 after 5 or more laps. But it's a technical track with lots of short straights, and little in long straights. If I'm always running it up to 7,000 rpm, it runs hot, up to 250 (I hit limp mode once 2 years ago with straight coolant). If I short shift some, I can keep temps down to a manageable 245, with no problems. I get the oil analyzed at each change-every 2 track events.

Now at Summit main track, or VIR, where there's longer straights and turns and I'm not zipping up to redline all the time, it tends to run closer to 230 or so.

That being said, I know I could benefit from some air flow management. And if someone had an extractor hood I could try sometime, I would. Unfortunately, there's two groups I run with that might allow me to run without a hood, and I just finished my last event with them for the year last weekend. All of the next weekends I'm registered for are with NASA. I doubt they'll go for that. Plus they're on the main track, and except for later this month, in Oct and Nov, so it may not be a true test.

And doggonit, the '98 Cobra hood just looks sooooo good, I'd have trouble replacing it anyway. It could only be for at the track. :shrug:

 

[racebronco2]

I would use a track only hood. The short track around here i run about 225*( in the summertime), speeds on the two straights are just a little over 100mph but there is a few 2nd gear turns (even though i have 4.10's).

 

[CobraRed01]

A technical question about limp mode.

Is limp mode in the Terminator possibly a function of the iron block running hotter than a comparable aluminum block?

I understand limp mode is a function of the tune in the Term's, but do aftermarket supercharged WAP/Teksid blocks have a similar issue during extended track times? If uneven heating and detonation is a problem it sounds like frying a FI/Al motor would be real easy without limp mode.

thanks.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

A technical question about limp mode.

Is limp mode in the Terminator possibly a function of the iron block running hotter than a comparable aluminum block?

I understand limp mode is a function of the tune in the Term's, but do aftermarket supercharged WAP/Teksid blocks have a similar issue during extended track times? If uneven heating and detonation is a problem it sounds like frying a FI/Al motor would be real easy without limp mode.

thanks.

It is a function of having 500+hp in a car designed for a V6. There is simply not enough airflow through the radiator in the stock configuration. These problems are what seperate a muscle car from a sports car.


To fix limp mode... how about lowering the boost? That is cheap and easy.

 

[racebronco2]

To fix limp mode... how about lowering the boost? That is cheap and easy.

Oh but the power is so intoxicating even if it's only going to last a few laps, kinda like sex you want to go slow but you just can't help yourself.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Greg LOL! That was a cut and paste from Evans cooling's web site. LOL!

First off be for warned that the web site navigating is absolutely HORRID!

Please don't let that sour you to the whole "waterless coolant" solution.

Read as much of the technical stuff on there that you can get through. You'll have to trust me when I say I'm not getting free coolant, sponsorship, or paid in any way from Evans.

One of my earlier gear head mentors had discovered Evans in the late 80s. He was a tech where I worked but also a good friend, and an amazing engine builder. He taught me most of what I know about engine forensics, power development, the importance of ULTRA CLEAN race engine building techniques, and even simple proper loading of appropriate fasteners.

I thought he was crazy at first when he started telling me about a guy who had pioneered a reverse cooling system and waterless coolant for small block Chevys. I listened and he explained all the reasons why it was valid.
Rick's not with us anymore, and I now explore engine building and power production innovations via the internet, not because I build engines anymore, but because I find it to be a fascinating subject that still has a very powerful draw for me.

In regard to diagnosing your cooling issue, as dead on the money as Carlos nearly always is on this topic, I fear running hoodless will not increase flow through the radiator, I'm afraid it might be too turbulent and disruptive to actually allow for a negative pressure enhancement to occur behind the radiator allowing it to pass more air through.
Not having ever tried this I can't say for sure. I have lived through the carbureted blower days when many guys would remove their hoods and promptly over heat. I realize that there are more factors at play here than just air flow. Let me just say that nearly every guy I counseled back then to cut a hole in the hood as small as possible and put it back on saw some improvement. Many still needed further cooling enhancements since the power was so much higher than before and most still had stock rads.

Try the deeper wider radiator air dam mod. It is incredibly cheap and fairly easy to do.
Home Depot, Lowe's, Ace hardware, and True Value all will likely have rolls of landscaping divider material. It is a semi rigid black plastic that can be cut to fit and anchored via sections of angle Aluminum to the bottom of the front facia. You will want it to hang down pretty far, if it scrapes a little it's not a big deal. It does not need to be dragging all the time obviously though. I'm talking driveways.
The idea is push air out around the car leaving a powerful negative air pressure source directly behind the radiator. This will promote more air flow through the rad by making it easier for it to get through. Hood and fender vents do the exact same thing only at different locations to the same body of air.

Greg, on the Evans topic again, there is a spot on the web site where you can see some of the racers using his coolant.

There are only a few Terminator people that I know of that are using the coolant due to the relative high cost of complete change over and the fear that they may need to add somewhere out on the road(how often does that actually happen:shrug.
A good friend and great instructor 03 Cobra Toy has had terrific results using the NPG-R (race) version along with his rather extensive, yet effective cooling mods. This guys is actually keeping himself in the mirrors of Porsche cup cars. Granted his driving is amazing, but the car is working too, as you know the higher you go in driver skill level the more important the equipment becomes as the driving tends to get closer and closer.

When I do my conversion I'm going to use the NPG+ version since it is a lifetime coolant and therefore much more affordable for someone in my income bracket.

I hope Troy doesn't get pissed at me for whoring up his thread with all these posts.

 

[gcassidy]

I hope we're giving Troy just what he needs, some low dollar solutions.

Me, I don't really have an overheating issue. My car just likes running on the track between 230 and 245. On the hi-way its at 180, and in traffic at just sits on 210. As long as the oil analysis is fine and it keeps running, I won't worry. But that doesn't mean I won't look into options like the NPG+.

BTW, is it low-buck? Just so Troy doesn't come after us. :bash:

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

I hope we're giving Troy just what he needs, some low dollar solutions.

Me, I don't really have an overheating issue. My car just likes running on the track between 230 and 245. On the hi-way its at 180, and in traffic at just sits on 210. As long as the oil analysis is fine and it keeps running, I won't worry. But that doesn't mean I won't look into options like the NPG+.

BTW, is it low-buck? Just so Troy doesn't come after us. :bash:

LOL! It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a detonation event! But compared to normal coolant options, you have to consider the lifetime aspect before low buck comes into the equation. Then YES!

 

[sonic cobra]

Intersting discussion. After 4 years of tracking my Cobra and with the new 3" pully and tune, I am now running into cooling issues as well.
I have been trying to understand the pros and cons of the larger dual pass rads and tend to agree with Jimmy that reduced air flow with the thicker rad, may offset any potential improvement.
I was also trying to decide if going to ceramic coated shorty/midlength headers would help by reducing underhood temps. Also not a cheap fix!
I've been trying to avoid the full blown evans cooling solution but, it may well be the best, once and for all, final solution to the problem.

 

[racebronco2]

Intersting discussion. After 4 years of tracking my Cobra and with the new 3" pully and tune, I am now running into cooling issues as well.
1. I have been trying to understand the pros and cons of the larger dual pass rads and tend to agree with Jimmy that reduced air flow with the thicker rad, may offset any potential improvement.
2. I was also trying to decide if going to ceramic coated shorty/midlength headers would help by reducing underhood temps. Also not a cheap fix!
3. I've been trying to avoid the full blown evans cooling solution but, it may well be the best, once and for all, final solution to the problem.

1. I have read alot about the dual pass radiators and from what i have read it will help lower the temps by 5-8 degrees but you must have a high output water pump.
2. I have the coated shorties and yes they do reduce the under hood temps but they do nothing for keeping our cars cool.
3. I have most of the evens stuff with the exception of the npg+ and they do allow the car to run longer before it gets hot but have not actually lowered the cooling temps.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Intersting discussion. After 4 years of tracking my Cobra and with the new 3" pully and tune, I am now running into cooling issues as well.
I have been trying to understand the pros and cons of the larger dual pass rads and tend to agree with Jimmy that reduced air flow with the thicker rad, may offset any potential improvement.
I was also trying to decide if going to ceramic coated shorty/midlength headers would help by reducing underhood temps. Also not a cheap fix!
I've been trying to avoid the full blown evans cooling solution but, it may well be the best, once and for all, final solution to the problem.

The real world best solution is more air through the rad. IMHO.

However you can get more air through will always be a worth while endeavor.

I'm convinced even with a relatively stock cooling system, a boxed in radiator plus a full boogie heat extractor hood,(a Terminator hood is just not enough) plus a deeper wider air dam, would likely do it for most 500 RWHP cars doing twenty minute sessions.
I have no tech/proof though.:nonono:

Any longer than that and a LARGE air to air oil cooler, larger rad, high flow stat, and probably the removal of the A/C condenser would be some of the possible the next steps taken.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The real world best solution is more air through the rad. IMHO.

However you can get more air through will always be a worth while endeavor.

I'm convinced even with a relatively stock cooling system, a boxed in radiator plus a full boogie heat extractor hood,(a Terminator hood is just not enough) plus a deeper wider air dam, would likely do it for most 500 RWHP cars doing twenty minute sessions.
I have no tech/proof though.:nonono:

Any longer than that and a LARGE air to air oil cooler, larger rad, high flow stat, and probably the removal of the A/C condenser would be some of the possible the next steps taken.

I agree with that.

 

[TroyV]

There was a comment from one of you earlier in the thread about a higher flow water pump. Can anyone comment on the higher flow pump's effectiveness? I was always under the impression that higher flow wasn't necessarily more effective as it decreases dwell time....potentially cutting the time the coolant has to draw heat from a location. I can't remember where I heard that, but it would seem to make sense.

I got the car back from its big head gasket repair (added a clutch as well...........ARP2000 studs also) .....and the car runs very smooth. I had it to an autocross last Saturday, and the car was perfect. I remained on street rubber, and there was a looming threat of rain from Hannah, so the course design was much shorter, and the relative speeds were down.

It was interesting. I haven't driven on street tires at an event....autox or track, in over four years.

300 treadwear Riken Raptors.........not what I would say is a very good tire for this.

I looked like I was auditioning for D1 drift team.......except these tires are too hard to even make a little smoke.

Fun fun.

Keep the suggestions coming. Has anyone here used the Killer Chiller or the true forged piece? I like the concept, but I would think that for us cooling the IAT2's is just one component of the overall problem.

 

[racebronco2]

There was a comment from one of you earlier in the thread about a higher flow water pump. Can anyone comment on the higher flow pump's effectiveness? I was always under the impression that higher flow wasn't necessarily more effective as it decreases dwell time....potentially cutting the time the coolant has to draw heat from a location. I can't remember where I heard that, but it would seem to make sense.

Keep the suggestions coming. Has anyone here used the Killer Chiller or the true forged piece? I like the concept, but I would think that for us cooling the IAT2's is just one component of the overall problem.

When i contacted evens a few years ago they said the water pump was the last cooling upgrade. I had the flow rates of our pumps and the evans pump (came with the remote thermostat but can't find it), and if you are doing alot of rpms open tracking you need to slow down the both pumps.

I thought you wanted low dollar solutions????