hang with hellcat

[c6zhombre]

I break the tires loose at 2,500rpms in 3rd gear.... that doesnt mean I should start the race at that rpm... it just means I need better tire/suspension set up.

I would have no problem yanking a stock hellcat from 60mph if that's where the hellcat owner insisted on starting. That's fine lets roll

But I do have a ton of respect for those cars. I like them a lot and I'm very pleased Dodge is pushing all the manufacturers to keep up the power wars

 

[Bdubbs]

You might think "it hits hard".... but any good street racer knows that you dont start a race in the mid 3k rpms... (especially not in a higher gear like third).

At 60mph in 3rd you will be starting the run at about 3,500-3,600.

A much better spot for an 03/04 would be either 45-50mph in 2nd OR a 70-75mph in 3rd.

However hard 60mph in 3rd might feel, you will be "handicapping" yourself for the run.

But what do I know... lol

Honestly, it feels like it almost hits as hard as 2nd gear at 40. Here I'm only at 19 psi. Not sure about rpm, but it looks like close to 45 mph and it hooked.

 

[ZYBORG]

I would have no problem yanking a stock hellcat from 60mph if that's where the hellcat owner insisted on starting. That's fine lets roll

But I do have a ton of respect for those cars. I like them a lot and I'm very pleased Dodge is pushing all the manufacturers to keep up the power wars

I have absolutely no doubt that you would... even if starting at a "bad" spot. Your car is just that fast.

My point is /was that anytime you start a roll race well below 4K rpms, you handicap yourself (whether you win or lose).

Honestly, it feels like it almost hits as hard as 2nd gear at 40. Here I'm only at 19 psi. Not sure about rpm, but it looks like close to 45 mph and it hooked.

Car feels that way because it is just that strong. Doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best possible for a roll.

Sometimes your car can "afford" starting at a low rpm and still come out ahead, but in certain races, it might need all the t's crossed and the i's dotted, in order to win.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Most eaton cars are making peak power at 5100-5500rpm, then leveling off.

My best eaton combo pull was 473whp@4900 iirc. Car was very mismatched because I had 4.10's and 25.4" tires... Did like not even 70mph in 2nd at 6500rpm, but was already way out of power up there. I needed a 3.27 or 3.55 for that combo badly.

I always did 3rd gear for 60 rolls and short shifted at 80ish around 5750rpm.

If I revved out to 6500rpm, it heat sunk in 2 pulls and felt 100whp slower.

Part of "driver mod" with a supercharger is knowing the powerband. Eaton cars have little know business at 6500-7000rpm at my altitude anyways.

I'm sure it's healthier to rev them a bit more at sea level but up here it's a joke to take them over 6k rpms if it's got bolt ons.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Little to no* business wow. I'm tired.

 

[roy_1031]

I have absolutely no doubt that you would... even if starting at a "bad" spot. Your car is just that fast.

My point is /was that anytime you start a roll race well below 4K rpms, you handicap yourself (whether you win or lose).




Car feels that way because it is just that strong. Doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best possible for a roll.

Sometimes your car can "afford" starting at a low rpm and still come out ahead, but in certain races, it might need all the t's crossed and the i's dotted, in order to win.

I completely understand what you're saying, just because it can doesn't mean it's best. Starting in 2nd at 60 is too close to redline. 60 in 3rd gear my cars making full tq and will just pull and pull. Line me up next to another mod for mod cobra him being in second at 60 and me being in 3rd at 60, I would probably guess my car would have half a car at least by the top of 3rd gear. That 2-3 shift will kill the momentum. My cars an tvs e85 full bolt on cobra so it boogies when it's go time.


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[04sleeper]

My old car would trap between 138-140. Don't see any Hellcat's doing that stock. It would murder a stock Hellcat on the street.

 

[R.D.P.]

You might think "it hits hard".... but any good street racer knows that you dont start a race in the mid 3k rpms... (especially not in a higher gear like third).

At 60mph in 3rd you will be starting the run at about 3,500-3,600.

A much better spot for an 03/04 would be either 45-50mph in 2nd OR a 70-75mph in 3rd.

However hard 60mph in 3rd might feel, you will be "handicapping" yourself for the run.

But what do I know... lol

100% agree, and one of the reasons I've considered a gear change. I've raced cars from 45, starting in second and 60, starting in third and it was a big difference. I will say this was before the Whipple. Problem is most casual runs are from 60 and usually over by 120-130, which is why I've thought about a shorter gear.

As for the race - I predict if it's an A8, OP will have a tough time from a roll, but have a better chance from a dig.

 

[ZYBORG]

I completely understand what you're saying, just because it can doesn't mean it's best. Starting in 2nd at 60 is too close to redline. 60 in 3rd gear my cars making full tq and will just pull and pull. Line me up next to another mod for mod cobra him being in second at 60 and me being in 3rd at 60, I would probably guess my car would have half a car at least by the top of 3rd gear. That 2-3 shift will kill the momentum. My cars an tvs e85 full bolt on cobra so it boogies when it's go time.


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If I had a 03/04 with stock gearing, I would avoid doing 60 rolls. I would "negotiate" my way into a better roll for me. Especially against a car like a C6Z or 13/14 GT500 where 60 rolls are butter!

If I wanted to do 60 rolls that bad, Id change my gearing. Some 3.27s might fit the car nicely for 60 rolls.

I do agree with you that IF I had to do a 60. Id go with 3rd as opposed to 2nd, since there wouldnt be enough "meat" in the power band and Id lose momentum.

 

[c6zhombre]

I completely understand what you're saying, just because it can doesn't mean it's best. Starting in 2nd at 60 is too close to redline. 60 in 3rd gear my cars making full tq and will just pull and pull. Line me up next to another mod for mod cobra him being in second at 60 and me being in 3rd at 60, I would probably guess my car would have half a car at least by the top of 3rd gear. That 2-3 shift will kill the momentum. My cars an tvs e85 full bolt on cobra so it boogies when it's go time.


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I couldn't agree more

 

[c6zhombre]

If I had a 03/04 with stock gearing, I would avoid doing 60 rolls. I would "negotiate" my way into a better roll for me. Especially against a car like a C6Z or 13/14 GT500 where 60 rolls are butter!

If I wanted to do 60 rolls that bad, Id change my gearing. Some 3.27s might fit the car nicely for 60 rolls.

I do agree with you that IF I had to do a 60. Id go with 3rd as opposed to 2nd, since there wouldnt be enough "meat" in the power band and Id lose momentum.

Have you driven one of these terminators with a blower swap and E85? The power band gets extended....serious TQ will start earlier and extend further, broadens. The timing comes on earlier versus a pump gas setup.

I've owned a lot of cars....from NA '98 cobra....strim'd '98 cobra 4.10 gears....c5z from stock to h/c 3.90 gears.....c6z. These terminators on ethanol are just a different animal with the power band. I'd prefer to start lower rpm and roll that gear out as long as possible and avoid a shift. Totally opposite of how I'd roll my 3.90 c5z....I would tend to approach it the the way you are thinking, roll start higher rpm and make the shift. That c5z TQ band was shorter and it made most it's hay up top rpm so it was beneficial to stay as high an rpm as possible. So much so that at a drag strip I would launch on et streets damn near off the rev limiter.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

If your powerband looks like this, 2nd at 60 sucks (mine was similar to this but even worse). I'm at 4500ft of altitude so mine was a dog after 5000rpm. It revved fine to 6500 but lost tons of power and overworked the blower/heat soaked.

Seeing that everyone at lower altitude has graphs more like this,

my real world experience doesn't help here.

If it looks like that, or like this,

then 2nd at 60 is probably great. My car dragged ass with that though.

 

[ZYBORG]

Have you driven one of these terminators with a blower swap and E85? The power band gets extended....serious TQ will start earlier and extend further, broadens. The timing comes on earlier versus a pump gas setup.

I've owned a lot of cars....from NA '98 cobra....strim'd '98 cobra 4.10 gears....c5z from stock to h/c 3.90 gears.....c6z. These terminators on ethanol are just a different animal with the power band. I'd prefer to start lower rpm and roll that gear out as long as possible and avoid a shift. Totally opposite of how I'd roll my 3.90 c5z....I would tend to approach it the the way you are thinking, roll start higher rpm and make the shift. That c5z TQ band was shorter and it made most it's hay up top rpm so it was beneficial to stay as high an rpm as possible. So much so that at a drag strip I would launch on et streets damn near off the rev limiter.

Ive driven/raced, ported and whipple cars. Not on E thought.

I see that you are focusing a lot on TQ. I rather focus mostly on HP and the curve itself. The torque deficit of being higher up in the rpms will be more than made up by the lower gear multiplication factor. (2nd vs 3rd).

I guess my main point is that for me personally, I would not race a sub 600hp terminator (on stock gearing) at 60mph in 3rd. Id negotiate another run.

You do bring up a great point which is every car is different and it is very important to look at how your car delivers the power and use the "power band" to your advantage.

 

[ZYBORG]

View attachment 88532 If your powerband looks like this, 2nd at 60 sucks (mine was similar to this but even worse). I'm at 4500ft of altitude so mine was a dog after 5000rpm. It revved fine to 6500 but lost tons of power and overworked the blower/heat soaked.

Seeing that everyone at lower altitude has graphs more like this, View attachment 88533 my real world experience doesn't help here.

If it looks like that, or like this, View attachment 88534 then 2nd at 60 is probably great. My car dragged ass with that though.

I dont miss being located by the Denver area.... not one bit...

 

[c6zhombre]

Ive driven/raced, ported and whipple cars. Not on E thought.

I see that you are focusing a lot on TQ. I rather focus mostly on HP and the curve itself. The torque deficit of being higher up in the rpms will be more than made up by the lower gear multiplication factor. (2nd vs 3rd).

I guess my main point is that for me personally, I would not race a sub 600hp terminator (on stock gearing) at 60mph in 3rd. Id negotiate another run.

You do bring up a great point which is every car is different and it is very important to look at how your car delivers the power and use the "power band" to your advantage.

Well I keep saying "TQ"...but honestly it's both hp and tq. I don't have an overlay but they are here on the forum. It's pretty dramatic when you see the graph. And that's from a car that's 99.9% identical with the exception of fuel swap pump gas to E85 and the pulley swap. At every rpm along the graph, from start of pull to redline there's a LOT of hp/tq daylight between the 2.

 

[roy_1031]

Torque wins races.


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[R.D.P.]

If I had a 03/04 with stock gearing, I would avoid doing 60 rolls. I would "negotiate" my way into a better roll for me. Especially against a car like a C6Z or 13/14 GT500 where 60 rolls are butter!

If I wanted to do 60 rolls that bad, Id change my gearing. Some 3.27s might fit the car nicely for 60 rolls.

I do agree with you that IF I had to do a 60. Id go with 3rd as opposed to 2nd, since there wouldnt be enough "meat" in the power band and Id lose momentum.

You're talking about going the wrong direction. I don't plan on going much over 130 for any reason in my '78 Fairmont, so I want to be hitting redline in 4th around there. If I'm remembering correctly, 3.90 rear with a stock T56 is 128 at 6500 in 4th. That leaves one easy 3-4 shift for a 60-130 roll.

 

[c6zhombre]

You're talking about going the wrong direction. I don't plan on going much over 130 for any reason in my '78 Fairmont, so I want to be hitting redline in 4th around there. If I'm remembering correctly, 3.90 rear with a stock T56 is 128 at 6500 in 4th. That leaves one easy 3-4 shift for a 60-130 roll.

No, for his theory he's saying it right....go down to 3.27s from 3.55s for a roll race from 60. Get the car into 2nd gear and avoid starting in 3rd. Dropping to 3.27s would make the top of 2nd gear more usable.

I'm saying on E85 it's not necessary. Maybe a pulley eaton or pump gas twin screw that might work better from 60

 

[apex svt]

Torque wins races.


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Any truth behind this? I got more torque than a dump truck

 

[MarcSpaz]

Any truth behind this? I got more torque than a dump truck

It's beyond well known truth. Torque to weight ratio dictates rate of acceleration and horsepower to weight ratio defines top speed.

Of course, there is a bit more to both, but that's the gist of it.