Break my neck or Crush my skull?

[Ryan]

So, this past weekend I did some reading over at CC about harnesses/roll bars/harness bars and am now more confused then when I began.

Basically, before my last event, I was thinking about the whole harness roll bar thing and my car (86 SVO). I thought I'd put it off for another year. However, my instructor said I was 'fast enough' that I should consider it. So that answered the question for me. IN trying to read about how many point harness to go with I came up with the following things

1 - Harness bars are bad because in the event of a roll over I could potentially break my neck since you are held firmly in place by Xpt harnesses.

2 - Roll bars are bad for street cars because in the event of an accident, even with padding I could potentially bash my (or passenger's) skull

What is SVT P's OTers recommendations? My car is a STOCK car right now that rarely gets driven, even on the street. The purpose of the car was to do OT/HPDE.

Input?

 

[brkntrxn]

The opinions on this are going to vary from one extreme to another.....

My opinion is get a roll bar. I put one in our convertible several years ago and it never came back out. I do keep padding on it all the time. However, the car gets driven very little (an 01 with 37k). I am most likely going to put one in the 99 this year and it gets driven on the street even less than the 01 (23k on it). It is about >--< far from being a track only car.

This comment will stir up some trouble, BUT I have yet to hear of someone dying in a street accident from hitting their head on a roll bar (padded or unpadded). I have even searched multiple times for reference to such as incident and came up with nothing.

 

[brkntrxn]

Some insight from the NHTSA:

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Head Impact Protection. Final Rule.

Not sure what that is saying......

 

[Maynor]

I just went through this same dilemea literally over the past two months.

Your parameters and mine are similar. Result: I just dropped my car off at the shop to get a roll bar installed this weekend. Also adding six point harnesses and a Hans device now that the cost has gotten a little more reasonable.

I delayed all my suspension go fast parts upgrade for next season and sunk the money into all safety for the first time. I barely drive the car on the street so the trade-off with a rollbar on the street is negligible. On track, its not.

We've all seen enough incidents on track to know, yes, it could happen to us through no fault of our own. The cost of installing this stuff is cheaper than even one ambulance ride. Its also a one time cost, not recurring.

If I had to do over again, I would have bought someone else's race car with all the work already done. That would have put me money ahead big time.

John

 

[BlackBolt9]

If done right, the cage would pose no threat to you on the street or anyone in the front passenger seat. If you have down tubes in the rear, the back seat would be useless or at least hazardous to passengers back there. If you don't ever use the rear seat definitely get a cage. If you still want the rear seat to be useful, then maybe you could get away with no down tubes or possibly make them removeable somehow. It will probably cost more to get the custom cage instead of a cookie cutter though.

 

[Greensix]

If you are thinking about putting in harnesses or a roll bar than you have to do it all. I know the PCA and several other track day groups are going to the "system" approach in that you must have roll over protection with the harnesses along with proper seats and seat bracing. For a car that is not street driven much I would suggest the 4 point roll bar, pad the hell out of it, good fixed back seats with rear bracing, and proper harnesses. Remember that you need the same for the passenger as for the driver in many of the track groups so go ahead and do it at the same time.

 

[PETSNKE]

I use a Sparco harness bar and it serves me well.

My thought process was that I have a street car that I track at 7/10ths three or four events a year. I'll buy a retired race car in the future, until then I will just continue to have fun driving in the intermediate run groups.

 

[brkntrxn]

You know, after posting on this thread earlier today, I was driving our convertible home this afternoon (first time it has been on the street in what seems like months) and at a red light I took a good look around me.

- steering wheel and air bag 18-20 inches away from me
- padded roll bar down tube behind and to the left of the seat back at least 6-8 inches. I'd need to get my head past the headrest and the window somehow in order to hit it
- door panel touching my arm
- padded door bar touching my side and leg
- center console touching my other side
- dash area under the steering wheel only a few inches from my knees
- metal convertible top assembly two inches from my head... what?!?!?!

Yes, the metal frame of the convertible top is literally 2-6 inches from my head depending on how I am sitting. It is covered by 1/4 inch of padded top liner. As I sat there, I realized how often I have actually rested my head on that very spot and not realized that it is barely covered metal.

With that said, I am more worried about banging my head on that metal structure than I am on the roll bar that I would have to un-naturally contort to in order to contact. Yes, anything can happen in a wreck, but it won't take much at all to hit that metal framework of the top.


edit: bad=bag

 

[racebronco2]

Last year i did a 360* at 120mph with a friend in the car. I stayed on track and continued to the pits, i happen to blow an oil line. I was thinking about a roll bar at the time but after that event i ordered one. The past year i have gotten race seats and a 5 point harness. Sometimes cars loose fluid before the corner workers can get the flags out and before you know it you're off track. Happened to a friend and the damage to the car was over $5000.00, that was 4 years ago and last september was thier first time on track since them.

 

[David Hester]

No way would I consider a harness bar in any car. :dw:
You are fooling yourself if you think having a harness and bar to hang your clothes on is going to make you safe.
Think about it. Anything other than a hard application of your brakes, the harness bar is only going to get you in trouble.
1) roll over, you get seperated at your shoulders- you can't lean over.
2) side impact, the bar moves with the side of the car. That means your belts move with the bar. If your head happens in be in the path, you get seperated at your shoulders by the belts. Even if belts don't chop your head, the harness bar/ belts moving sideways at speed is going to whip your neck and you get seperated from your shoulders.
Look at this crash.

Driver survived, but what if there was a harness bar from one side to the other. The bar is going to be pushed to the left. If belts are secured to the bar, they are going to move also.
Your belts are against your neck on either side. The bar moves 6 inches to the left, the belts move 6 inches to the left. Where does that leave your neck?
Just a really bad idea. If you want to look "racy", buy some carbon fiber overlays for the dash or something.
A properly fitted rollbar is going to be above and behind your head.
Yeah, in a crash you can get back there, but with a harness and proper rollbar, you should be held away.
Note there are rollbars and there are "show bars". No. Not nudey bars, "roll" bars that are for looks and not safety. I'd stay away from them, too.
Autopower Industries - Roll Bars
I'll not bore everyone with the picture of my old Fox body after it center punched a powerpole.
FULL CAGE is ALL that saved my girlfriend-now-wife from a world of hurt. That was about 65-70 mph.
How fast do you plan to drive? How hard do you plan to crash? No one does, but it happens.

 

[wheelhopper]

Ryan, I would get a chromoly roll bar. There is a guy by me that has been doing roll bars/cages for years. He will only do it with chromoly. Which is stronger and lighter than mild or DOM steel. Because it is stronger the tubing can be thinner so it is also lighter. He will do a custom 4 pt bar installed for under $1000. By the time you order a bar, pay for shipping, either pay for the install or do it your self, you're close to $1K anyway. His installs look like they are factory parts and all your reinforcement points are welded. So you also get better structural rigidity. I bet for a tad bit more he would run some side bars for you to make an 8pt cage. If your interested PM me and I will get you his contact info.

 

[BlackStripes]

I put a rollbar in my car several years ago and i daily drove the car for many many months... the bar is waaay too far from me, as said before, if i touch my bar i am having a lot more problems!! All my bar is covered with the high density padding.

The bar will give you stiffer chassis, you can have race seats and with the harnesses you won't move at all. I am adding harness in a couple of weeks and i am sure i will be able to drive faster just being able to concentrate 100% in driving and not moving my torso to compensate while turning

 

[Ryan]

Thanks for the info guys. Its frustrating thinking you are on the right path, then research it to validate it only to come out a bit more confused than going in.

Greg - PM me the info, but I have a guy in the Manasass area I'm kind of leaning towards.

 

[Maynor]

..He will only do it with chromoly. Which is stronger and lighter than mild or DOM steel. Because it is lighter the tubing can be thinner so it is also lighter.

Not quite. Chromoly and mild steel for a given dimension weigh about the same. Chromoly has a higher carbon content versus mild steel which gives it a bit more stiffness so a thinner wall tubing is allowed versus a mild steel cage. That's where the weight savings comes in. There are drawbacks though.

We can get into a detailed discussion of the different metals here but that's not going to help Ryan.

Ryan, no one has ever regretted a 4 point. As much as you track your car, its the only thing that makes sense right now. If you want, start with an Autopower bolt in and go from there... You can install it yourself and save your wallet and your head in the process.

John

 

[ac427cobra]

If you want, start with an Autopower bolt in and go from there... You can install it yourself and save your wallet and your head in the process.

John

Not sure how this Auto-Power bar is installed but I have seen bolt-in roll bars punch through the floor on a roll-over.

I like the custom fabbed version myself.

Ryan:

Harness bars are for video camera mounts only! :read:

To answer your question, I'd rather crush my skull than break my neck! ;-)

FWIW

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[black-plasma]

For you guys with the 4pt's and harness do you wear the harness when driving on the street or is it better to use the seat beat?

 

[wheelhopper]

Maynor, you're right about my previous post. I mistyped. The chromoly is stronger, therefore thnner walled tubing can be used. Resulting in a lighter cage/bar.

Mistype corrected.

Either way Ryan. A chromoly custom/welded bar is the only way to go. Save yourself the headache of trying to fit a bolt in bar yourself. You'll be cussing for the next 2 weekends trying to make it look right, and it still won't be as safe/strong/pretty as a welded custom bar.

I left you my number in a PM about your garage thread. Call me if you want any info. I have a guy that I OT with that I think is getting his bar done and I was considering getting mine. Maybe I can work out a group price.

 

[BlackBolt9]

FWIW, at least one of the sanctioning bodies (can't remember which one) is no longer allowing thinner walls with chromoly. Apparently they don't feel that it is that much stronger to allow the thinner wall. Take that for what it is, IMO I would deal with the extra weight to stay away from the price of chromoly tubing, especially in an open track car that isn't trying to be as competitive with everyone else. I am going to do the calculations later to see what the difference in strength to weight ratios for 4130 and 1018 1-3/4" tubing are, but that'll have to wait until I don't have other stuff to do at work

 

[Maynor]

I went mild steel vs. chomoly for the same reason. Cost and you also need to heat treat the welds to do it correctly which adds additional unnecessary cost.

I'm not running competitive events so every last ounce of weight savings isn't as critical as a full racing environment would be.

I can also use those dollars saved towards more driver improvement and suspension stuff. I'm still running a stock k-member and that needs to go at some point. The MM, Griggs, Agent47 bug is still with me and I need to resolve that at some point.

Good point about the sanctioning bodies. Pick one and follow their rules. You're less likely to have to re-do the bar later and and a lot of the engineering work in terms of tube size/thickness, locations etc etc, has already been done for you.

I followed the NASA AI rules for mine to save time and probably went one bar size bigger than AI racing rules required for additional peace mind. I like my brain unscrambled, if at all possible.

John

 

[wheelhopper]

I watched an episode of Myth Busters, where they compared/tested, DOM tubing, chromoly, and aluminum. Aluminum came in last. The chromoly was so much stronger, even with a thinner wall, it was a clear winner for strength. The DOM was not even close.

From what I have read. SCCA no longer allows roll bars for competition, period. They do allow seamless, DOM and ERW mild steel, and chromoly. They also allow thinnner wall tubing for the chromoly because it is stronger.

NASA will allow, for the weight range most of us fall into, seamless DOM or chromoly. The size tubing at our weight rating is the same.

So if we are talking safety, why not spend the extra couple hundred bucks on the stronger/safer metal. If you are doing mostly SCCA events then your cage/bar will be lighter. If you are doing NASA events then it will be stronger.

If we are not competing in any racing events, as some have mentioned, then you can adjust the size tubing and material to fit your needs/budget. Also, why would you need to save a little money on safety for an Agent 47 or Griggs suspension. They will only add seconds on to your time, and you're not racing, so seconds should not matter.