"...But on a road course..!!"

[E. Green Cobra]

Why the Mustang? Why not pick another car that was designed from the ground up with handling as the top most importance? There's plenty to choose from in the sub-$45k market:

RX8
Corvette
350z
EVO MR
STi
Elise
S2000

maybe he prefers fords? and I wasn't around back then but before the mustangs became big heavy bruisers they were "nimble" (by the days standards) handlers no? cars like the boss 302's, gt-350's?
one last poke- this car was designed ground up to handle as well- sla front suspension, irs rear rigid chassis-- sounds ground up to me- unfortunately none of those (save the chassis) made it to a production car yet

 

[01L2Cobra]

E. Green Cobra you are exactly right. This generation of Mustang was supposed to be the best handling Mustang to date. Unfortunately we will never see just how well this new body style will handle unless we get an IRS. AbusiveWombat you are so obsessed with driving in a straight line that you do realize the history SVT has of producing cars that handle well. Power has never been the only objective of the SVT division when it comes to the Cobra.

 

[CharlieCobra03]

From what I understand, this '05 Generation is already the best handling one, even without the IRS.

 

[01L2Cobra]

From what I understand, this '05 Generation is already the best handling one, even without the IRS.

Not the GT500 with its poor weight distribution.

 

[Dave07997S]

What makes you think that every C6 Z06/Viper owner on earth is a Schuey in training?

:lol:

 

[AbusiveWombat]

E. Green Cobra you are exactly right. This generation of Mustang was supposed to be the best handling Mustang to date. Unfortunately we will never see just how well this new body style will handle unless we get an IRS. AbusiveWombat you are so obsessed with driving in a straight line that you do realize the history SVT has of producing cars that handle well. Power has never been the only objective of the SVT division when it comes to the Cobra.

I'm not obsessed with straight line performance but I do value straight line performance more than handling (to a degree).

SVT may have created good handling Cobras in the past but none are on the level of the cars I listed above. The only exception is the CobraR but IMO that's a modded vs stock arguement because all the the cars listed above have room for improvement that the CobraR had stock (1.5" drop, camber changes, stiff springs, reduced weight...).

Even though this new Mustang is leagues ahead of the last it's still has one huge problem...its weight. At 3450 lbs, the MGT is already 200-600+ lbs heavier than all the cars I listed above. Add to that weight IRS, transmission upgrade, brake upgrade, engine changes/upgrade and you're looking at a car that's giving up 300-700 lbs or more to the competition. You know as well as I that lighter is always better for road racing. What are your solutions to the weight problem? How do you expect this mustang to be competitive in the corners carrying that much more weight?

The only solution that I see for road racing is the same formula that the GrandAm mustangs and GT500 are taking...be much faster in the straights and good enough in the corners. The Mustang doesn't have to be the best handling car on the track to turn in the fastest lap times.

Not the GT500 with its poor weight distribution.

Speculation. You don't know how the GT500 will handle.

 

[01L2Cobra]

SVT may have created good handling Cobras in the past but none are on the level of the cars I listed above. The only exception is the CobraR but IMO that's a modded vs stock arguement because all the the cars listed above have room for improvement that the CobraR had stock (1.5" drop, camber changes, stiff springs, reduced weight...).

Thats ture but we verry well could have had a Cobra that ranks right up there.

Even though this new Mustang is leagues ahead of the last it's still has one huge problem...its weight. At 3450 lbs, the MGT is already 200-600+ lbs heavier than all the cars I listed above. Add to that weight IRS, transmission upgrade, brake upgrade, engine changes/upgrade and you're looking at a car that's giving up 300-700 lbs or more to the competition. You know as well as I that lighter is always better for road racing. What are your solutions to the weight problem? How do you expect this mustang to be competitive in the corners carrying that much more weight?

Get rid of that PIG IRON 5.4. If you have to have a 5.4 go with an NA Al Block. The Al Block and IRS would even out the weight distribution quite a bit. Now I would much rather see a Cammer in there due to its weight. All of the fancy interior HTT wants in the GT500 is also unnecessary weight.

The only solution that I see for road racing is the same formula that the GrandAm mustangs and GT500 are taking...be much faster in the straights and good enough in the corners. The Mustang doesn't have to be the best handling car on the track to turn in the fastest lap times.

The same suspension that is in the FR500C will never be put in to a factory built Mustang. Also so you know the dry weight of the FR500C is 3000 lbs. Why you seem to want to reference these cars when you talk about the GT500 is beyond me since they will never come close to their handling.

Speculation. You don't know how the GT500 will handle.

Not true we already know its going to have poor weight distribution and that is going to affect how well it handles.

 

[Fourcam330]

E. Green Cobra you are exactly right. This generation of Mustang was supposed to be the best handling Mustang to date. Unfortunately we will never see just how well this new body style will handle unless we get an IRS. AbusiveWombat you are so obsessed with driving in a straight line that you do realize the history SVT has of producing cars that handle well. Power has never been the only objective of the SVT division when it comes to the Cobra.

01L2, have you attempted to further your cause by writing/submittng a signed petition to Ford/SVT regarding the hurt feelings some of you OT guys have over the new Mustang? If you're going to spend the time "voicing out" anyway, it mind as well be worth the effort, no?

 

[Fourcam330]

Thats ture but we verry well could have had a Cobra that ranks right up there.

It ranks very well to most people (those that prize straightline over turning).

Get rid of that PIG IRON 5.4. If you have to have a 5.4 go with an NA Al Block. The Al Block and IRS would even out the weight distribution quite a bit. Now I would much rather see a Cammer in there due to its weight. All of the fancy interior HTT wants in the GT500 is also unnecessary weight.

What is it with you and "PIG" iron? How much less do you suppose a 5.0L big bore weighs than a Al 5.4L? :dw: If anything the heavy and expensive as hell dual runner R/GT head intakes will make the smaller motor the heavier one. A 5.4 makes more TQ with a single 7-9" runner than the big bore ever could with a 15"+ long runner.

The same suspension that is in the FR500C will never be put in to a factory built Mustang. Also so you know the dry weight of the FR500C is 3000 lbs. Why you seem to want to reference these cars when you talk about the GT500 is beyond me since they will never come close to their handling.

The bottom line is it won't take a full suspension conversion from Griggs/MM to make this generation of Mustang handle respectably well. There's no reason anyone couldn't get their '05 Mustang GT down to 3000lbs should they choose to, it's really not black magic.

Not true we already know its going to have poor weight distribution and that is going to affect how well it handles.

Show me a 3850lb S197 with GT500 suspension upgrades/wheels/tires. :shrug: The fact of the matter is you have a lot less to base your handling bashing off of than the straight line guys do with regard to engine/HP figures.

 

[AbusiveWombat]

Get rid of that PIG IRON 5.4. If you have to have a 5.4 go with an NA Al Block. The Al Block and IRS would even out the weight distribution quite a bit. Now I would much rather see a Cammer in there due to its weight. All of the fancy interior HTT wants in the GT500 is also unnecessary weight.

Al 4V 5.4L or Al 4V 4.6L, you're still adding weight. Yes the IRS will likely balance out the weight but you're still adding a lot of weight to an already porky 3450 lbs MGT. So how do you expect to compete with cars that are 300-700+ lbs lighter in the corners?

The same suspension that is in the FR500C will never be put in to a factory built Mustang. Also so you know the dry weight of the FR500C is 3000 lbs. Why you seem to want to reference these cars when you talk about the GT500 is beyond me since they will never come close to their handling.

Maybe you misunderstood me. We know that the GrandAm mustangs are not as agile as the M3s and Porsches but they are faster than the competition. So the winning formula is faster in the straights and good enough in the corners. The GT500 is likely traveling down the same path relative to its competition (350z, EVO, STi, GTO, RX8, C6). We know that it will be very fast, the question is will its handling be good enough that on most tracks the GT500 will be victorious.

Not true we already know its going to have poor weight distribution and that is going to affect how well it handles.

Just because the GT500's estimated weight dist. is not 50/50 does not mean that it won't handle as good or better than the '05 Mustang GT. So therefore, neither you or I can draw any conclusions as to how well it will handle.

Maybe history can shed some light. Has there ever been a Cobra that didn't handle as well or better than the Mustang GT?

 

[01L2Cobra]

Al 4V 5.4L or Al 4V 4.6L, you're still adding weight. Yes the IRS will likely balance out the weight but you're still adding a lot of weight to an already porky 3450 lbs MGT. So how do you expect to compete with cars that are 300-700+ lbs lighter in the corners?

I never said it would compete with most of those cars but at least it would consistantly beat cars like the M3 and even GT500.

Maybe you misunderstood me. We know that the GrandAm mustangs are not as agile as the M3s and Porsches but they are faster than the competition. So the winning formula is faster in the straights and good enough in the corners. The GT500 is likely traveling down the same path relative to its competition (350z, EVO, STi, GTO, RX8, C6). We know that it will be very fast, the question is will its handling be good enough that on most tracks the GT500 will be victorious.

The Mustangs are not winning every race simply because they are not agile enough. The EVO and the STI will give it trouble around the smaller tacks. The C6 will out run it because of how well they will corner and their over all speed. The only cars that it has a chance of consistently beating are the GTO, RX8, and 350Z.

Just because the GT500's estimated weight dist. is not 50/50 does not mean that it won't handle as good or better than the '05 Mustang GT. So therefore, neither you or I can draw any conclusions as to how well it will handle.

Estimated weight dist. of 57/43 (likely to be even more unbalanced), a 3 link SRA, and 2 tons does not equal good handling at least not here on earth. Even if it does manage to handle as well as the Mustang GT it still won’t handle as well as a 99 or 01 Cobra. The 99's and 01's were the best handling of all of the 99up non R Cobras not the 03's that they say it will out perform.

Maybe history can shed some light. Has there ever been a Cobra that didn't handle as well or better than the Mustang GT?

Well how about I shed some light as well. The 03's with all their upgrades do not handle as well as the 99's and 01's do. Do you know why? Could it be all the added weight and the change in weight distribution? I think so.

 

[01L2Cobra]

It ranks very well to most people (those that prize straightline over turning).

That is my point this car is only good for that one thing.

What is it with you and "PIG" iron? How much less do you suppose a 5.0L big bore weighs than a Al 5.4L? :dw: If anything the heavy and expensive as hell dual runner R/GT head intakes will make the smaller motor the heavier one. A 5.4 makes more TQ with a single 7-9" runner than the big bore ever could with a 15"+ long runner.

Pig Iron is way too heavy and I would rather Ford Build a Cobra again with out using in the blocks. Either way both would weigh less than the engine in the GT500.

The bottom line is it won't take a full suspension conversion from Griggs/MM to make this generation of Mustang handle respectably well. There's no reason anyone couldn't get their '05 Mustang GT down to 3000lbs should they choose to, it's really not black magic.

That’s true its not but in order to see just how well this platform will handle it needs the IRS it was designed for not a after thought SRA .

Show me a 3850lb S197 with GT500 suspension upgrades/wheels/tires. :shrug: The fact of the matter is you have a lot less to base your handling bashing off of than the straight line guys do with regard to engine/HP figures.

Not true since there is an estimated 57/43 weight distribution and an overall weight of 2 tons. The SRA isn't going to help out much.

 

[AbusiveWombat]

Well how about I shed some light as well. The 03's with all their upgrades do not handle as well as the 99's and 01's do. Do you know why? Could it be all the added weight and the change in weight distribution? I think so.

who's faster on a road course ('03 or '01)? ohhh, the handling isn't that much better. MT recorded a 64 mph slalom with a convertable.

 

[CobraRed01]

who's faster on a road course ('03 or '01)? ohhh, the handling isn't that much better. MT recorded a 64 mph slalom with a convertable.

The Terminator was both a move in the "right" and "wrong" direction over the 2001 depending on your point of view. Beefing and stiffening up the IRS, lowering the stance and adding wider wheels really was a step in the "right" direction for handling. Sadly, the IRS wasn't strong enough for hard drag starts. Going to the iron block was a step in the "wrong" direction from a handling perspective, but allows for massive HP buildup for drag racers... a step in the "right" direction for these enthusiasts. The GT500 is leaning even more toward acceleration over lighter weight and maximum handling. What many of us handling enthusiasts are wondering is how well the 2001 would have handled with the beefed up 03/04 IRS, lower stance and wider tires. Certainly even better than it's originally impressive handling figures...and most certainly better than the Terminator. In our minds that would have been a step in the "right" direction toward uncompromised handling that we expected in 03. Considering the even stiffer s197 platform, we savor the thought of an aluminum block N/A with a proper IRS. Enter the GT350...someday.

Again, slalom figures are fine... without bumps, but if you need to fight to keep the heavier car on the road (especially on a real world roads) so you can "point and shoot" at the next turn...turn after turn... some of the fun goes out of it.

 

[E. Green Cobra]

The Terminator was both a move in the "right" and "wrong" direction over the 2001 depending on your point of view. Beefing and stiffening up the IRS, lowering the stance and adding wider wheels really was a step in the "right" direction for handling. Sadly, the IRS wasn't strong enough for hard drag starts. Going to the iron block was a step in the "wrong" direction from a handling perspective, but allows for massive HP buildup for drag racers... a step in the "right" direction for these enthusiasts. The GT500 is leaning even more toward acceleration over lighter weight and maximum handling. What many of us handling enthusiasts are wondering is how well the 2001 would have handled with the beefed up 03/04 IRS, lower stance and wider tires. Certainly even better than it's originally impressive handling figures...and most certainly better than the Terminator. In our minds that would have been a step in the "right" direction toward uncompromised handling that we expected in 03. Considering the even stiffer s197 platform, we savor the thought of an aluminum block N/A with a proper IRS. Enter the GT350...someday.

Again, slalom figures are fine... without bumps, but if you need to fight to keep the heavier car on the road (especially on a real world roads) so you can "point and shoot" at the next turn...turn after turn... some of the fun goes out of it.

well the 03 was a compromised project- SVT wanted to go another direction (I assume it was some form of n/a 4.6 with fr500 heads/intake) however the car didn't perform the way Colletti felt it should so the blown 4.6 got the nod...after that the al block was nixed because the ford blocks were failing, they didn't have time/money to go back and recast an appropriate block- (similarly the 00R was to get an AL 5.4 back in 2000, but the bean eaters cancelled the al blocks scheduled for the navigators) so you ended up with the current cobra- the car you and others are looking for will come -someday just drive that 01 a little longer... obviously Ford knows that a light n/a mustang is a winner-they race em that way- eventually they'll figure out a way to sell em to us. IRS,AL block gives Ford something to sell when the retro thing wears off

 

[200MPHCOBRA]

E. Green Cobra you are exactly right. This generation of Mustang was supposed to be the best handling Mustang to date. Unfortunately we will never see just how well this new body style will handle unless we get an IRS. AbusiveWombat you are so obsessed with driving in a straight line that you do realize the history SVT has of producing cars that handle well. Power has never been the only objective of the SVT division when it comes to the Cobra.

Cobras were about doing everything better than the GT version of the Mustang. Every new version was better than the last. This will be no exception to that rule. The car won't be perfect, but it will be outstanding. Do you believe a regular GT will outhandle it? I think its safe to say you are obsessed with being negative about the GT500. You are entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided.

 

[Captain Beyond]

Cobras were about doing everything better than the GT version of the Mustang. Every new version was better than the last. This will be no exception to that rule. The car won't be perfect, but it will be outstanding. Do you believe a regular GT will outhandle it? I think its safe to say you are obsessed with being negative about the GT500. You are entitled to your opinion no matter how misguided.

:thumbsup:

 

[chuckstang]

nope, 21 :-D