Colgan 3407 crash

[Steeda30]

Very sad day in aviation, RIP to all onboard.

Here's the tapes from Buffalo ATC - callsign Colgan 3407

Abbreviated version
Download Crash - MP3 Crash by Colgan Free Music Hosting

Full version - 15 mins in they're cleared for the ILS 23
http://event.liveatc.net/kbuf/KBUF-Feb-13-2009-0300Z.mp3

Hearing the cheer in the FO's voice just minutes before they went down, then hearing ATC not being able to contact them again is gut-wrenching

There was another Colgan crew cleared for the approach a few minutes after, and they asked the tower if they knew what was going on down there, I imagine they saw the fire, that had to be tough to stomach.

Many pilots reporting icing conditions while in the approach area. Not the time to speculate, but the NTSB said that after 15 degrees of flaps was selected, there was severe pitch down and roll. Very likely that it was a tail stall, as a result of the ice it had accumulated. In an icing situation like this it's usually always encountered when adding flaps.

 

[cobb289]

i want to be a helicopter pilot but with all of these crashes here lately it makes me want to change my mind...

 

[sharkbite]

What really sucks is that they removed the icing certs on the ATR-72, which is almost the same exact plane, but not for the Dash 8.

 

[sharkbite]

i want to be a helicopter pilot but with all of these crashes here lately it makes me want to change my mind...

Old ATC mantra regarding helos: If the wings are traveling faster than the fuselage, it is probably a helicopter, and therefore unsafe.

 

[Steeda30]

I can't stand the comments by some of these "experts" they have on the media. "Well it could have been carburator ice" said one of them, idiot.

They'll start comparing this crews flight experience with that of Sully and Skiles before you know it, terrible.

What really sucks is that they removed the icing certs on the ATR-72, which is almost the same exact plane, but not for the Dash 8.

Interesting, I know an ATR-72 crashed in '94 - was it in icing conditions?

 

[FoxFour]

I'm sure it will be a while before the NTSB comes out with an official, detailed report, but was there any mentioning of a 'split flap' condition when the flaps were set? That may or may not be easy to spot by forensics crews on the scene there.

 

[sharkbite]

The word around the radar room is that it was icing that caused the crash. I dunno about the date of the crash, but an ATR-72 crash due to icing was what caused the FAA to disallow that specific a/c to operate in icing conditions.

 

[ItsReal93]

Its crazy how things like this happen.... You always see other people in other places and never think its gunna happen near you.... I live about 7 minutes away from where it happened and my girl friend was good friends with the daughter, back in highschool, who was in the house at the time.... its just nuts

 

[COBRA97SVT]

R.I.P. to all.. But did you hear about one of the ladies on board? Her husband died on 9/11 and i guess she was on her way back from a memorial service..

 

[DHG BULLITT]

R.I.P. to all.. But did you hear about one of the ladies on board? Her husband died on 9/11 and i guess she was on her way back from a memorial service..

Of course the media would highlight this situation.

I'm not very well versed on turbo prop commuters. I know what the Q400 is and about the nose gear problems of old but that is about it.

 

[firemanmike]

Sad

 

[scn]

I can't stand the comments by some of these "experts" they have on the media. "Well it could have been carburator ice" said one of them, idiot.

They'll start comparing this crews flight experience with that of Sully and Skiles before you know it, terrible.

Interesting, I know an ATR-72 crashed in '94 - was it in icing conditions?

I do aircraft refueling, de-icing, and maint. and deal with Colgan's Q400. Sad to say but they really shouldn't be flying in icing conditions. Many of the pilots have complained about the aircrafts poor anti-icing system and how it becomes a real challenge to fly in those conditions. From what I have heard firsthand, the plane went through some rough conditions and picked up some clear ice on the tail and wings. As they were on final approach, the increased drag caused them to slow to the point of stalling an engine. When the pilot (God rest her soul) began to dive to increase speed, the drag (and perhaps a stalled engine) became too much and plane rolled and crashed.
Also, if I am not mistaken, the ATR-72 and Q400 were banned in Europe over faulty landing gear. It is so sad to see something like this happen in order for the aircrafts cold weather capabilities to be questioned.

 

[DHG BULLITT]

I do aircraft refueling, de-icing, and maint. and deal with Colgan's Q400. Sad to say but they really shouldn't be flying in icing conditions. Many of the pilots have complained about the aircrafts poor anti-icing system and how it becomes a real challenge to fly in those conditions. From what I have heard firsthand, the plane went through some rough conditions and picked up some clear ice on the tail and wings. As they were on final approach, the increased drag caused them to slow to the point of stalling an engine. When the pilot (God rest her soul) began to dive to increase speed, the drag (and perhaps a stalled engine) became too much and plane rolled and crashed.
Also, if I am not mistaken, the ATR-72 and Q400 were banned in Europe over faulty landing gear. It is so sad to see something like this happen in order for the aircrafts cold weather capabilities to be questioned.

They were not banned, FlyBE (British European) Lufthansa Cityline, Austrian Arrows and a few others operate the Q400.

Edit: They may have been banned, if so that has been repealed since because the airlines listed do currently operate the aircraft.

 

[scn]

They were not banned, FlyBE (British European) Lufthansa Cityline, Austrian Arrows and a few others operate the Q400.

Edit: They may have been banned, if so that has been repealed since because the airlines listed do currently operate the aircraft.

Could be that the ban was only on the ATR-72. Hmmm...

 

[DHG BULLITT]

Could be that the ban was only on the ATR-72. Hmmm...

I was thinking more along the lines of a temporary thing until Bombardier came up with a solution and the airline techs could then fix the planes...

ATR-72s are only operated in the south stateside. American Eagle operates a few out of DFW in place of the Saab 340 that was recently retired, and of course their operations of the ATR-72 out of MIA and SJU.

Side note...did anyone also see the crash at London City...that airport has to be closed, it is just too dangerous of a glide slope.

Plane crash lands at London City Airport - Telegraph

Looks like a BAe-146

 

[FoxFour]

When an aircraft is certified for flight into known icing conditions, that doesn't mean it is impervious to all icing conditions. I listened to the tapes and it seemed to be some rough icing in areas, especially where Colgan 3407 was.
Judging by the weather in the area at the time, it seems to be that it was conducive to supercooled water droplets forming.

 

[Steeda30]

Here's an excellent video about tail icing from NASA with some in-flight tests at various flap configurations with simulated tail-ice. Skip to 11 minutes into it to get to the actual in-flight test footage.

15:30+ starts the clip with the most severe pitch over.

[ame=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946]Tailplane Icing[/ame]

 

[PSUCOBRA96]

very sad, seems like no one had a chance once the problem occured..RIP

 

[FoxFour]

Here's an excellent video about tail icing from NASA with some in-flight tests at various flap configurations with simulated tail-ice. Skip to 11 minutes into it to get to the actual in-flight test footage.

15:30+ starts the clip with the most severe pitch over.

Tailplane Icing

Video not working for me.
Nevermind, just click on 'Tailplane Icing' and a separate window will pop up.