Concealed Carry in Texas

[txyaloo]

This is mostly for Iceman II, Adam, and other TX LE. It's purely an educational scenario/question. Assume the actor in this situation has a concealed handgun license in Texas and is a Texas resident.

Texas Penal Code defines UCW as:

§ 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not[...]

It makes no mention of a rifle or shotgun, nor does the penal code in any other section make reference that concealed or open carry of a rifle or shotgun is illegal; thus, it is assumed concealed carry of a "long" gun is legal in Texas.

There are places where carry is off limits by statute for concealed handgun licensees. See below:

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.

Then there is section 30.06 of the penal code that requires effective notice for carry to be off limits in places where carry isn't specifically banned by the penal code.

Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

Now, based upon Texas law, and assuming no "gun buster" or "no guns" signs are in place, would it be legal for an actor with a concealed handgun license to carry a concealed "rifle" in an area either prohibited by statute or marked by a valid 30.06 sign when said actor could not legally carry a handgun?

 

[Dominion]

I would assume that no means no.


The 30.06 sign is BS. Only thing it does is keep law abiding citizens that conceal out of your building or not carry. You think a robber is going to give a shit?

EDIT: Just jumped off my phone to my computer and saw where this was at. Mods, if need be please delete!

 

[txyaloo]

I would assume that no means no.


The 30.06 sign is BS. Only thing it does is keep law abiding citizens that conceal out of your building or not carry. You think a robber is going to give a shit?

EDIT: Just jumped off my phone to my computer and saw where this was at. Mods, if need be please delete!

You're fine. TX residents are free to post.

I agree 30.06 is BS. Thus the content of this thread. 30.06 applies to CHL holders carrying a handgun under the authority of their license. As far as I'm aware, no authority is needed to concealed carry a rifle, nor it is illegal. The penal code only says UCW applies to "handgun, illegal knife, or club".

I have "rifles" that are strangely in the shape of a Glock or a 1911.

 

[Dominion]

You're fine. TX residents are free to post.

I agree 30.06 is BS. Thus the content of this thread. 30.06 applies to CHL holders carrying a handgun under the authority of their license. As far as I'm aware, no authority is needed to concealed carry a rifle, nor it is illegal. The penal code only says UCW applies to "handgun, illegal knife, or club".

I have "rifles" that are strangely in the shape of a Glock or a 1911.

I just had a funny picture of a guy carrying a rifle in his pant leg walking with a limp. I guess if the law doesn't state it should be fine. Me like most when read "rifle" I picture something that can't be concealed, obviously that's not accurate 100% of the time.

 

[ITRIEDEL]

trech coat.... interesting will pay close attention to this post

 

[ITRIEDEL]

if im not mistaken isnt anything under 26 inches considered a handgun? Also, if you did get caught with a rifle, im guessing it could be considered criminal mischief of some sort? I dunno, just thinking

 

[txyaloo]

if im not mistaken isnt anything under 26 inches considered a handgun? Also, if you did get caught with a rifle, im guessing it could be considered criminal mischief of some sort? I dunno, just thinking

AFAIK, Texas law doesn't define what is a pistol or a rifle.

Any person can pay $200 to the federal government, engrave their information on a gun, and it becomes a short barrel rifle. Thus, federally it is a rifle. Texas' penal code specifically outlines the legalities of short barrel rifles, and it never says they can't be carried or carried concealed. An illegal knife, club, etc is defined in the same section of the penal code.

If a person is caught and told to leave, but refuses, it could be trespassing, but I don't see how it could be criminal mischief of any sort since it isn't illegal to concealed carry a rifle.

Essentially, from my reading and understanding, a person can carry a short barrel rifle, concealed, anywhere except the locations listed below or a building that has no guns signage. This means a CHL holder carrying an SBR can ignore 30.06 signs since that section of the penal code only applies to persons carrying a handgun under the authority of their CHL.

I just wondered what some of the legal minds thought of this.

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(2) on the premises of a polling place on the day of an election or while early voting is in progress;
(3) on the premises of any government court or offices utilized by the court, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the court;
(4) on the premises of a racetrack;
(5) in or into a secured area of an airport; or
(6) within 1,000 feet of premises the location of which is designated by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice as a place of execution under Article 43.19, Code of Criminal Procedure, on a day that a sentence of death is set to be imposed on the designated premises and the person received notice that:
(A) going within 1,000 feet of the premises with a weapon listed under this subsection was prohibited; or
(B) possessing a weapon listed under this subsection within 1,000 feet of the premises was prohibited.

 

[Iceman II]

You are correct, the Penal Code makes no mention of carrying a long gun concealed or in open view, so it is legal to carry. This would bring up the point why would someone carry their long gun in open view? Bad guys would be extremely happy to take possession of it.

Here's the way I see it, since the concealed permit to carry only pertains to handguns then the question of a concealed permit holder carrying a long gun flys out the window. So having a CHL permit is no longer is a point in this question. He would be just like anyone else.
So the carrying of a long gun would fall under the section of 46.03. Places Weapons Prohibited in come the "firearm."
Or if a person asks you to leave then you would need to leave under the Criminal Trespass law.
Clear as mud?

 

[txyaloo]

You are correct, the Penal Code makes no mention of carrying a long gun concealed or in open view, so it is legal to carry. This would bring up the point why would someone carry their long gun in open view? Bad guys would be extremely happy to take possession of it.

Here's the way I see it, since the concealed permit to carry only pertains to handguns then the question of a concealed permit holder carrying a long gun flys out the window. So having a CHL permit is no longer is a point in this question. He would be just like anyone else.
So the carrying of a long gun would fall under the section of 46.03. Places Weapons Prohibited in come the "firearm."
Or if a person asks you to leave then you would need to leave under the Criminal Trespass law.
Clear as mud?

That's been my take on our laws as well, and in most situations, I agree about openly carrying a long gun. Here's where it gets tricky...

Federally, the firearm below is a rifle (actually a machine gun, but our penal code classifies them the same).

This could make things tricky since it is not a handgun, but it's also not a "long gun" as most LE would see it.

What would you do if you were interacting with a CHL holder, and they were carrying that in a CHL prohibited (30.06 or 51%) establishment? Let's assume there are no "no guns" signs, and said person is compliant if the firearm is discovered and freely leave if asked. Would you arrest them for UCW?

I'm not a proponent of open carry, so this is just discussion for the sake of discussion. What if said actor is openly carrying that same firearm in public and not on premises they control (where open carry is legal)? The firearm is still legally a rifle even though it may not fit the traditional view of a long gun.

Do you believe most LE in Texas would believe that the gun pictured is a rifle, not a handgun? Of course, when carrying an NFA item like that, the appropriate federal paperwork establishing NFA registration would also be carried and presented to LE.

 

[Iceman II]

First and foremost I cannot enforce federal laws, thats a whole different set of rules.
So looking at this weapon it is a handgun. Meaning, it can be fired with one hand. There would be no way of me knowing it is a machine gun? The only way to tell if it a machine gun, which has the meaning of capable of shooting more than two shots automatically by a single trigger pull is obviously firing it. Which would lead to a third degree felony as would be a CHL holder in places prohibited.
So I would make an arrest in the establishment whether or not he has a CHL or not.
Not sure about your third question? Openingly carrying a handgun in view? Yes an arrest.
No! I don't believe LEO's in Texas would believe the gun pictured is a rifle!

 

[83 5oh]

Even if the person was asked to leave and he did without any problems..The fact remains that he was in an establishment that 51% of it's revenue was derived from the sale of alcohol. So yes, i would arrest. Simply because during his UCW course he/she was made clear of these rules.
Also I believe that openly carrying a rifle in public is meant to provoke and cause a reaction. Unless the guy is walking in to Bass Pro, or a gunshop or somewhere that sells or repairs firearms. Seriously if the guy is walking into Family Dollar with a rifle, do you think people would just go about their day. It'd freak someone out and cause problems.

At the very least he would be carged with disorderly conduct 42.01 (8); Displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm.

*just graduated the academy in december so i am a TX LEO, not just talking out of my a**. Yes i am also working and licensed already.

 

[txyaloo]

First and foremost I cannot enforce federal laws, thats a whole different set of rules.
So looking at this weapon it is a handgun. Meaning, it can be fired with one hand. There would be no way of me knowing it is a machine gun? The only way to tell if it a machine gun, which has the meaning of capable of shooting more than two shots automatically by a single trigger pull is obviously firing it. Which would lead to a third degree felony as would be a CHL holder in places prohibited.
So I would make an arrest in the establishment whether or not he has a CHL or not.
Not sure about your third question? Openingly carrying a handgun in view? Yes an arrest.
No! I don't believe LEO's in Texas would believe the gun pictured is a rifle!

I understand you can't enforce federal laws, and this is specifically pertaining to Texas state law.

Now, while that weapon may look like a handgun, it could in fact be a short barrel rifle or a machine gun. It's like a person looking at an AR-15 and calling it an automatic M4, or an AK-47 clone and saying it's fully automatic. The way a firearm looks can be deceiving. As far as I can tell, it's not illegal to carry openly or concealed either a short barrel rifle or a machine gun.

As you mentioned, section 46.01 of the penal code defines handguns, it also defines SBRs, and MGs.

(9) "Machine gun" means any firearm that is capable of shooting more than two shots automatically, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

It seems like the Legislature made specific definitions for handguns, SBR, MG, illegal knife/club, etc, and 46.02/UCW only prohibits carrying "a handgun, illegal knife, or club". Would you still arrest if a person provides the appropriate paperwork showing the weapon is registered as a rifle or machine gun? (I know LE can arrest for that anyway since technically they are illegal to own in Texas, and being properly registered at the federal level is only a defense to prosecution.)

I guess my third question/scenario is where things are more of a stretch. 99% of the public sees a handgun when they look at that picture. I know it may look like a handgun, but it is actually an SBR or machine gun. It seems like open carry of those is completely legal.

If you're presented with paperwork during an interaction that shows firearm XX is an SBR or MG, how would you proceed?

 

[txyaloo]

Also I believe that openly carrying a rifle in public is meant to provoke and cause a reaction. Unless the guy is walking in to Bass Pro, or a gunshop or somewhere that sells or repairs firearms. Seriously if the guy is walking into Family Dollar with a rifle, do you think people would just go about their day. It'd freak someone out and cause problems.

You feel free to arrest a person on that and present that arrest to the CA/DA. In many situations, it's not going to get you very far.

Carrying a rifle in public is not meant to provoke or cause a reaction. It is 100% legal in Texas to walk down the street with a loaded rifle or shotgun. Hell, Quanell X marched in downtown Houston several years ago and his "security" carried loaded AR-15's.

I've seen people carrying rifles at HEB and Wal-Mart and have never been alarmed by it. Also, entering private property openly carrying a firearm is quite different than walking down a public street.

In addition:

42.01 Disorderly Conduct. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly (8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm; (c) for purposes of this section: (1) an act is deemed to occur in a public place or near a private residence if it produces its offensive or proscribed consequences in the public place or near a private residence.

Simply carrying a rifle slung over your shoulder is not intentionally or knowingly displaying a firearm in a manner calculated to alarm.

 

[83 5oh]

i feel that it's one of those, Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you want to carry a rifle in public go ahead. But emergency services is gonna light up with calls about a guy walking into a store with a loaded rifle. Is it really worth the trouble?

 

[EvergreenSVT]

First and foremost I cannot enforce federal laws, thats a whole different set of rules.
So looking at this weapon it is a handgun. Meaning, it can be fired with one hand. There would be no way of me knowing it is a machine gun? The only way to tell if it a machine gun, which has the meaning of capable of shooting more than two shots automatically by a single trigger pull is obviously firing it. Which would lead to a third degree felony as would be a CHL holder in places prohibited.
So I would make an arrest in the establishment whether or not he has a CHL or not.
Not sure about your third question? Openingly carrying a handgun in view? Yes an arrest.
No! I don't believe LEO's in Texas would believe the gun pictured is a rifle!

I don't know about Texas law but as far as the United States is concerned it isn't a handgun, it is a machinegun. Your inability to function test it and determine that doesn't make it a handgun, though it would make arresting him for carrying a handgun plausible because you've not been trained to identify the difference and therefore likely aren't expected to know.

For reference, unload the weapon and place the selector (where is it on that Glock btw?) in the auto position. Press the trigger and cycle the slide. If the striker snaps forward every time when it goes back into battery so long as the trigger is depressed, it is a functioning automatic weapon (or a malfunctioning semi-automatic weapon). This applies also to rifles.

As for short barreled weapons, they are only SBR/SBS as far as the federal government is concerned when they are in that configuration. If you remove the stock from a registered SBR Glock or put a 16" upper back on an AR, it is a Title 1 firearm again and can be carried interstate or sold as a Title 1 firearm. ATF of course asks that you send them a letter and have it stricken from the Registry. The good news is you can keep two uppers and travel without the little one if you don't want to do a form 20.

 

[EvergreenSVT]

i feel that it's one of those, Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you want to carry a rifle in public go ahead. But emergency services is gonna light up with calls about a guy walking into a store with a loaded rifle. Is it really worth the trouble?

What in your experience and training causes you to feel that way?

You're going to have to field that question in real life sometime, might as well try it once on the internet.

 

[txyaloo]

I don't know about Texas law but as far as the United States is concerned it isn't a handgun, it is a machinegun. Your inability to function test it and determine that doesn't make it a handgun, though it would make arresting him for carrying a handgun plausible because you've not been trained to identify the difference and therefore likely aren't expected to know.

NFA is illegal in Texas. It's only a defense to prosecution to have the firearm registered in the NFRTR. Anyone that owns a legal MG, SBR, etc can still take a ride due to ownership. Though I don't know any LE that would actually make that arrest after being presented with the proper federal paperwork.

For reference, unload the weapon and place the selector (where is it on that Glock btw?)

It's not select fire. The gun is an MG and full auto only.

As for short barreled weapons, they are only SBR/SBS as far as the federal government is concerned when they are in that configuration. If you remove the stock from a registered SBR Glock or put a 16" upper back on an AR, it is a Title 1 firearm again and can be carried interstate or sold as a Title 1 firearm. ATF of course asks that you send them a letter and have it stricken from the Registry. The good news is you can keep two uppers and travel without the little one if you don't want to do a form 20.

Just fyi, I'm an 07/02. This is a recent ATF opinion. ATF has made many opinions over the years including one saying a piece of string is a machine gun.

Yes, many people are following this new opinion, but the law as codified does not have that stipulation for an SBR. Once your F1 or F4 are returned, the firearm is an SBR. While technically, I can take a virgin AR lower and register it as an SBR, the ATF isn't happy about that unless it has a short barrel and stock on it. Once the stock is removed, the firearm is still registered as an SBR. Texas law defines what is a handgun, SBR, MG, etc, but it never defines what is a rifle. It says an SBR is a rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length. It does not say said rifle must have a stock of any sort. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any case law dealing with this either.

Also, items are never "stricken" from the NFRTR. Once a serial number is in the NFRTR, there it stays. ATF will make a note that the firearm is no longer in a certain configuration, but the item is never removed.

 

[txyaloo]

Even if the person was asked to leave and he did without any problems..The fact remains that he was in an establishment that 51% of it's revenue was derived from the sale of alcohol. So yes, i would arrest. Simply because during his UCW course he/she was made clear of these rules.

I forgot to address this part last night. I've never taken a UCW course in Texas. There is no such thing. UCW is a charge in the penal code. It is not a course or a license. UCW does not apply in bars if a person is carrying a rifle, SBR, SBS, or machine gun. Go read the statute. It only applies for handguns, illegal knives, and illegal clubs. A person carrying in one of those establishments with one of the firearms mentioned previously would not be carrying under the authority of their CHL. They would be carrying under the provisions of Texas law that does not prohibit a person, CHL licensee or not, to carry openly or concealed a rifle, shotgun, SBR, SBS, or MG.

i feel that it's one of those, Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you want to carry a rifle in public go ahead. But emergency services is gonna light up with calls about a guy walking into a store with a loaded rifle. Is it really worth the trouble?

You can "feel" all you want. What does the law state? You may feel abortion is wrong, but Texas law says it is legal. Do you go to abortion clinics and arrest doctors performing abortions? I doubt you do because state law permits abortion. State law does not prohibit open carry of any firearm except handguns.

Sure, in some places, emergency service may get calls. It's your responsibility to investigate the call, verify the person is not a criminal, and let them go on their way, because walking down a public street with a slung rifle is simply not disorderly conduct.

You're mixing up two concepts here. Walking in public and entering private premises. Two different things.

 

[Stanley]

What makes this not a handgun for those of us not in the know?

 

[rubicon04]

What makes this not a handgun for those of us not in the know?

I believe its an upgraded Glock 17 which can be made fully auto like the 18 , the Glock 18's have a selector switch which i dont see pictured.