Custom N2O dyno #s!!

[wrenchhead46]

alright! I finally got the dyno done today, and heres the numbers! We're pretty sure with a little more tuning we can get around 450 but we encountered a nitrous solenoid prob. (we think) and the dyno got a little wacky...:bash:
sweet numbers none the less! on top of that i sacked myself a modded SRT neon on the way back home w/o nitrous! Those things are pretty damn quick.

 

[wrenchhead46]

whoa!! sorry about the image size, thought i sized it down!

 

[Weedo]

Your stock numbers look low! Did you not get the "fix" done yet?
At a 15% loss that puts you around 304 HP. Just curious. But the NOS numbers are insane!

How did you find out the SRT-4 was modded? I've seen a slightly modded one run upper 12's, pretty amazing!

 

[SLOWBRA]

What size shot are you running!

 

[NastyWS6]

Nice #'s

 

[wrenchhead46]

we're running a 82 jet(nitrous) and a 26 jet(propane) which is more or less equivalent to a 175 shot. and yes the car did have the fix performed, I called ford and had them do a VIN check to see if all the recalls were performed including the fix and they said yes, and listed them off to me. I was guessing it would be something like 280, we think there may have been a dyno prob...:nonono: My friend put his built 2001 SS on the dyno and only made 320 baseline..doesnt really make sense. Once we check out the solenoid and get everything set we'll go again. Until then, im pretty happy with the numbers, and also that my engine survived:thumbsup:

On another note, we thought it was kind of wierd that A/F started at like 14.4:1 and consistently got fat (12:1-12.2:1) throughout, with nitrous and w/o nitrous. Does Ford tune the cars this way? Ideally id like to get a MAFterburner, but im kinda broke right now!:beer:

 

[wrenchhead46]

of yeah, i got the SRT to stop afterwards, and other than all the stickers and shiznit like that:rollseyes he said it was modded and was running like 230HP??? I wasnt really sure cause my friend was showing him the dyno sheets we had just gotten. Damn quick though, I was definately surprised when he was right there next to me!

 

[wrenchhead46]

well, now i need everyones help/thoughts...
the nitrous solenoid is fine, which means that the probs. either the dyno or some sort of timing issue?? The problem we encountered was that after the dyno at 420 HP(propane and nitrous), each run afterwards would only produce 380, which was the max we ran with the dry shot alone(no propane)

baseline:265HP, 261 TQ
dry shot: (fitting 63) 393 HP, 423 TQ
wet shotfitting 82 nitrous, 26 propane) 421 HP, 471 TQ
then: continous runs of 380 HP, and around 480 TQ????

torque remained constant or increased, but a 40 HP drop?!
anyone have any ideas? is the computer pulling timing? remember, the fuel curve remained constant...and we did a final baseline run to make sure they were the same...so no mechanical probs...I used a scan tool and pulled codes as well, and again, nothing...:shrug: :??:

 

[99SVTcobraVERT]

well first off..... looks too smooth to be a timing problem. 2nd are you running stock bottom end on that car? nitrous and propane, ive heard a little about that but not much on the sucess? a 175 shot is too big for that car on stock bottom end with stock timing. of course its only making 420 at the tires so im not sure what the deal is. let me ask you a question, you said it hit hard and put down the numbers the first run but the other ones it wouldnt? sounds like to me bottle pressure issue to me. what was your psi during all the runs? im willing to bet it started out nice and high and dipped down once you started running. i run an nx wet kit (nitrous/fuel set up) with a 62 jet nitrous and 35 fuel (150) shot and i make more power than your 175. however i do make considerable more power on motor also. i think you need to switch over to an nx kit and go with it. sounds like its less stress and lot easier than your "custom n2o kit" if i can be any help dont hesistate to email. you have to look at it this way also.... you make 265 on the motor and made 421 on the nitrous. 421-265= a gain of 156rwhp at the tires out of a 175hp shot and even more torque, how much more power do you expect out of a 175? or maybe you meant you want more than the 380 it made the rest of the time. im telling you the difference between a heated bottle and a cold bottle can be difference in winning a race and losing.... goodluck:beer:

 

[wrenchhead46]

the bottle was actually heated and the numbers we're getting i know are low. The propane is exactly the same as a wet shot, however it is a hell of a lot easier to set up, being that you run a line straight from the propane bottle to the nozzle. Propane is higher octane(around 110) and burns slower, and it can even be burned in a gas or liquid state.
But heres why the numbers are low..and it really sucks... the dry shot test was too lean on fuel, and ended up actually roasting a plug in one cylinder , which is pretty wierd considering the car was running rich and all the other plugs were sooted black! (Detonation) probably caused by too low octane, the plug itself, not enough timing retard. So thats where the big HP drop came from! In addition, we discovered that the dyno computer freaked out, how much we're not really sure.
Heres what sucks though. I wanted to know why my baseline numbers sucked(even though I was pulling from 3rd for all runs, which will result in lower numbers). So today, we ran some tests including a cylinder leak down test and a compression test. From what I can see, it looks like some blown rings, a blown head gasket, and hopefully if that much, nothing more!:cryying: Im gonna have someone with more experience check it out tomorrow. If all goes well, afterwards, me and my friend from NOS will re dyno and start tuning at 150 again and see what we can do. You are definately right though, we should be seeing much higher numbers.


and by the way, keep in mind this car has 82000 miles on it!:thumbsup:

and by the way, do you think pulling from third and stopping at 6100 RPMS is a good way to go for the N2O dyno pulls? Thanks for the reply man!:beer:

 

[wrenchhead46]

oh, and i meant that the propane can be introduced in a gas or liquid state!

 

[99SVTcobraVERT]

well blown head gasket and fried seals dont sound all that suprising with as much gas as you were shootin to the motor, esp dry shot. the car doesnt even have return fuel system. those motor's dont respond well to a dry shot,ive seen this myself. if you have stock 24lb injectors then you are overworking them by making them add that much fuel. let me ask you a question. you were dry shot before spraying before the maf, after you installed the wet were you spraying before the maf also? because if you sending in your own fuel then you dont need to have the computer put in more for you. and if your jets are same i use a 62 jet and 35 fuel for a 150. sounds like going up 20 should be more than 25hp increase because a 52 which is 10 down is a 100 shot for me. sounds like if you doing it w/o help of computer then you not putting enough fuel with it. i think an 82 is bigger than a 175...

 

[wrenchhead46]

im actually introducing the nitrous and fuel after the MAF as to not screw up air readings to the computer. The only thing thats changing the stock fuel is the fuel enrichment unit which tricks the computer into thinking it needs more fuel(just a little more) the rest of the additional fuel is provided via the propane. Being that A/F ratio was around 12.3:1 I doubt it was too rich, and it definately wasnt too lean. I really think this prob was either there before the nitrous...or my injectors are dirty and are not supplying the proper amount of atomized fuel. Since my baseline numbers were the same before and after the nitrous testing...Im pretty sure these probs. were already there. I will be putting in a forged short block soon, and we will re tune and see what happens, personally I dont think near 500 hp numbers are out of the question, but time will tell.:-D

 

[99SVTcobraVERT]

500 will take a great tune, a rebuilt motor and a nitrous system that isnt custom. or at least should i say it will be easier that way. i am putting my kit up for sale which has proven itself time after time if you are interested let me know.

 

[wrenchhead46]

ok man, whatever, the only reason that you think a regular system would be easier is because you dont have a total grasp of the simplicity system that I have explained to you.
Its not like I rigged this up from some old BS parts, I custom made it with the people from NOS. The system alone costs 650.00 plus whatever accesories you want(which is less than most kits out there for the cobra from what I know), and requires no injectors, no fuel pump...no tampering with the fuel system whatsoever except for the enrichment unit(which equals less money spent)....AND it will make more power than a regular wet system, and its safer! And personally, besides these facts, I think its pretty sweet that we're testing and running these systems, rather than throwing on the same thing as the next guy.
so, as soon as I have the engine rebuilt, we will tune for 150 and see what we get. I dont think we'll have a problem exceeding 450 HP on a 150 shot, but we will soon see.

 

[99SVTcobraVERT]

ok the attitude goes up so my offer to help goes down. i wasnt being a d*ck to you i was just offering my help. 1st off it dont get much more simple than installing a shark nozzle and putting in two labled jets coming from 2 selanoids, one from your stock fuel rail, the other from a bottle. activated by a switch that only sends a signal when you are full throttle. a 3 year old could operate this system. you mean to tell me that hooking up some crazy system with not one but two "contents under pressure" bottles is better and more simple? as if having a nitrous tank under extreme pressure in your car wasnt dangerous enough you want to add a propane tank :burn: ...no thanks. more efficent, MAYBE i havent seen much with it. simple, yeah sounds like it from all your problems. and you are bragging that just your parts cost 650 and that its cheaper than the complete systems out there? its actually about 150 over actually if you know how to surf the net or read performance mag. adds, and oh yeah... this is a good thing? and comes with instructions that my grandmother could read and install, where as yours is still in the testing stage where you are frying seals? :rollseyes 2nd since when has it been a must to replace injectors or fuel pumps with bolt on systems that arent a big shot? and one more thing you are telling me that a car that makes 265rwhp is going to make 450+rwhp on a 150hp shot? does anyone but me see a problem with you math? looks like you going to make a 150shot make 185 at the rear tires....goodluck! p.s. i never said it wasnt cool that you are trying something different. i think its actually quite cool that you have the money to blow your car up and build it back up again. but again please tell me how having a propane tank in my car is going to make me rush out and buy a kit like yours when it is available? p.s. how much are propane fills? add that with the average of 30-40/bottle for nitrous and tell me how its even worth it over a blower? because cost efficiency just went out the window! but maybe you can make me see the light?:shrug:

 

[99SVTcobraVERT]

p.s. excuse grammar it is, after all, almost 4am here....

 

[wrenchhead46]

ok man, if youre worried about having a propane tank in the car I can understand that, doesnt scare me that much since propane has an odor added to it just like nitrous, so if it leaks you'll know. In addition, the fact that its under pressure doesnt matter since both the nitrous and propane tanks have safety blow off valves.
A 4lb tank will last at least 6 n2o tank fill ups. Currently we're working on an adaption so that we can use the little coleman 1 lb. tanks that dont cost that much.

The 99-03 Cobra Dry kit from NOS is actually 860.00, im sure there are universal kits out there for less, however this is the kit specifically made for our cars, and it is a good deal more expensive than the propane/nitrous kit i am describing which includes a majority of the equipment in the dry kit. Therefore the directions are exactly the same, the only thing thats different is the fuel jetting since the propane is more dense. It is also highly recommended by NOS and all other nitrous system manufacturers that the fuel system is modified to handle more fuel flow in regular wet systems. So tack on extra cash for a pump and injectors. Heres some calculations:

(24lb/hr*8(injectors)*.8)/(.48 Brake Specific Fuel Consumption)=
320 Horsepower-------.8 adjusts the calculated injector size to produce peak power at 80% injector duty cycle

so lets say we want 450 HP w/nitrous which is I believe what your car makes.

(450 HP*.48 BSFC)/(8injectors*.8)= 34 lb/hr injectors needed for proper fuel flow at 450 HP

This means that you are definately pushing the limits of your 24 lb/hr injector capabilities.(most likely the duty cycle is being pushed to its limits)...stock fuel pump is at its limits as well

I also did not, "fry any seals," nor did any damage occur during the testing. We baselined at 265 before and after all testing. Any damage would have resulted in power loss. We actually discovered the damage was there already, blown head gasket and rings....which is why the car is dynoing so low, aside from the fact that these are pulls in 3rd, not 4th. And, yeah its cool that im gonna get a built engine, but the cost is definately not cool.

In the end however, dyno #s prove much more than words, and I wont have any til the engine is rebuilt. And im sorry if I came off as having an attitude, but substituting another system as an answer to my probs. doesnt help me. I think ive proven that this system is cheaper, and most likely more effective. Engine work is only because I want it, and the engine is already damaged. I dont know if this will make anyone see the light, but I hope it proves that a lot of research and hard work has gone into this system, and that I would like it to work for others as well. In the end isnt the point to show those blown guys whats up at less than half the cost?!:-D

 

[99SVTcobraVERT]

explain what makes the nos kis specific and different just for the 4v cobra?

 

[wrenchhead46]

heres NOS tech line number: (714) 546 0592
I dont know the full details about the 99-03 dry kit..

among other things, the new kit comes with the enrichment unit, window switch, special wiring harness...im not completely sure cause I didnt buy it...yeah you could use a universal kit, but from what I understand, the dry kit is a plug and play type deal, and you lose the fuel enrichment unit designed for our cars which really is a nice part of the system.