Fuel System Upgrades-So Many Options, My Head Hurts! Help Please!

[funmoneypit]

Ok, I have been doing research for at least three days on upgrades for my fuel system. My car is basically stock with just an open air filter and a Bassani x-pipe and cat-back exhaust. I would really like some help determining which way I should go.

First my goals are fairly common; 2.76 upper with complete idler set, FIPK CAI, MAFia or a BA2600 maf, custom tune and ultimately I would like to run e85 (would upgrade to 80lb injectors then). From what I have read, without the corn I should probably get a BAP (I already have the wire upgrade). With the corn I doubt the BAP is enough again from what I have read. So then I am into pumps upgraded. So I buy the "improved" GT pumps from Walbro that are e85 compatible and need a new fuel hat. Pumps and hat set me back $750 - $800 but then I need another FPDM and wiring or a modified single FPDM to do that so now I am close to the cost of Lethal low buck return fuel system. But then I read about the fuel heating up so run it deadhead. I also am concerned if the pumps are too much when I am just running 93 octane.

My head hurts as to which way I should go!

Any insight into what you have done or which way you would suggest is highly welcomed to help me make up my mind.

Thanks in advance for any help!!

 

[MG0h3]

Since you would like to run E85, you should setup for that.

Get with one of the vendors on here---04sleeper(mod in distillery), MalcomV8, Turbovenom. They are all Fore dealers. Youll need a hat, pumps, lines, relays, regulator, Hobbs or other activation switch for second pump. Just tell them that you want to run E85 and they will get you all set up. Oh and injectors like you mentioned.

I dont even know what this modified FPDM thing is. If you go into the how-to section Malcolm V8 has a thread for "stock fuel pump activation" or something. You just use the FPDM, still controlled by the PCM, to trigger your relays. The entire electrical side of my system is two 8 dollar relays, some wire from FORE, and the Hobbs switch.

And if you dont want to run E85 right off the bat, youll just be on a gas tune and no, the pumps will be fine. They can happily pump all the fuel through the return line back to the tank. Running high pressure is hard on pumps, not volume.

 

[funmoneypit]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree to do it for my final goal of e85. I did read Malcolm's thread before on how to get a return fuel system to act like a stock one where it comes on and primes and then goes off until the car starts. Great option especially when loading a tune. By the way, a modified FPDM is one that can run both fuel pumps in a returnless system. One FPDM usually will overheat when trying to run two fuel pumps (not relays) off of it, again, in a returnless system.

I guess my actual question is the difference in a returnless and return style. I will break it down the way I have read it and while I don't necessarily need a return one, would it make more sense?

Upgrade my returnless.
To do this to support e85 I would most likely need new pumps. To do new pumps, I should buy a new fuel hat (instead of modifying the stock fuel hat which has arguments both ways). And to run two returnless pumps, I would need another FPDM and wiring or a modified FPDM. All this probably will be $900-$1000.

Go to a return system.
For this I can get the Lethal budget return system and probably be around $1100 total once I am done. One main concern I had with a return style system was heat buildup of the fuel if the fuel cycled through the entire system including the fuel rails and then back to the tank. This has been shown to increase the fuel temperature over time which is obviously not good. After looking at the Lethal system again, I see it is a deadhead system so that should alleviate the heat buildup issue. This can still be wired as Malcolm has laid out which would then turn on the pumps initially to prime the system and then turn off the pumps until the car starts.

I might have just answered my own question as my main concern was the heat buildup with a return system. So now I don't really see any concerns with the return system.

If anyone has more to add, I am all ears as I am just learning the whole Terminator platform as I have only had mine for 3 1/2 weeks.

 

[01yellercobra]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree to do it for my final goal of e85. I did read Malcolm's thread before on how to get a return fuel system to act like a stock one where it comes on and primes and then goes off until the car starts. Great option especially when loading a tune. By the way, a modified FPDM is one that can run both fuel pumps in a returnless system. One FPDM usually will overheat when trying to run two fuel pumps (not relays) off of it, again, in a returnless system.

All FPDM's from 99-04 are the same from the factory. The FPDM driving the twin pimps in your 04 is the same one they put in a V6. An upgraded FPDM will lower the duty cycle though. I ran my stock 01 FPDM with twin 04 Cobra pumps and twin GT pumps. Both had the wire upgrade. The FPDM never went into thermal shutdown on me.

 

[bigmoose]

Go full return. You are eventually going to want to upgrade the blower even if you say you don't now. The car will also run way better on a full return system, I've had both setups. The fuel pressure will be rock solid on a return system which makes for a smooth running car. A high volume returnless system will fluctuate fuel pressure some. This makes a big difference for idle, part throttle, and part throttle transitions.

As a side note, I killed a stock FPDM running GT pumps. Went modified with no problems, then I went return.

 

[funmoneypit]

Thanks for the replies guys!

All FPDM's from 99-04 are the same from the factory. The FPDM driving the twin pimps in your 04 is the same one they put in a V6. An upgraded FPDM will lower the duty cycle though. I ran my stock 01 FPDM with twin 04 Cobra pumps and twin GT pumps. Both had the wire upgrade. The FPDM never went into thermal shutdown on me.

Yes, I have read that some have done it successfully and some haven't (see below). I guess I am the worst case scenario guy. I would rather use two FPDM's and not worry about the thermal shutdown as both pumps draw more power than one FPDM is designed for.

Go full return. You are eventually going to want to upgrade the blower even if you say you don't now. The car will also run way better on a full return system, I've had both setups. The fuel pressure will be rock solid on a return system which makes for a smooth running car. A high volume returnless system will fluctuate fuel pressure some. This makes a big difference for idle, part throttle, and part throttle transitions.

As a side note, I killed a stock FPDM running GT pumps. Went modified with no problems, then I went return.

Thanks, I believe this is the way to go. It really isn't much more than the upgraded pumps and fuel hat for a returnless and it gives me room to grow.

C'mon, I KNOW I won't want a bigger blower just like everyone else. LOL!

 

[MG0h3]

Geez i didnt pay attention to the second FPDM thing. Ill have the actual power for the pumps running through two 40 amp relays. The FPDM will trigger pump 1, Hobbs pump 2. Im still going to use the FPDM as a power source for the trigger side of the relays though so that ok right? I mean its like .250 amps or something to trigger the relays.

 

[funmoneypit]

Geez i didnt pay attention to the second FPDM thing. Ill have the actual power for the pumps running through two 40 amp relays. The FPDM will trigger pump 1, Hobbs pump 2. Im still going to use the FPDM as a power source for the trigger side of the relays though so that ok right? I mean its like .250 amps or something to trigger the relays.

This is coming from a very green guy but from my research, yes you can use one FPDM to fire your relays. There is no issue there. It's when someone runs two pumps directly from the FPDM. Two pumps require too much power and can thermal lock the FPDM. Some have had no issues and some have. I like to err on the side of caution. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can chime in to confirm.

 

[MG0h3]

ok that makes sense. Ya just use the FPDM as a switch then and the relays will carry the load.

 

[TRBO VNM]

I didn't get a chance to read everything, just a little here and there. Bottom line is that you need to decide if you want to upgrade the returnless setup for now and then convert later or convert now and only touch the fuel system once?

The modded FPDM or dual FPDM setup is if you switch to ford gt pumps. They can cause the one stock fpdm into thermal shutdown. If you go return you do not need dual fpdm's and only 1 stock fpdm is needed if you want to wire it so the pumps prime like factory. I have customers that want it to prime like factory and some that don't.

I can assist with whatever you need or questions you have. What is the ultimate goal for the car?

 

[funmoneypit]

I didn't get a chance to read everything, just a little here and there. Bottom line is that you need to decide if you want to upgrade the returnless setup for now and then convert later or convert now and only touch the fuel system once?

The modded FPDM or dual FPDM setup is if you switch to ford gt pumps. They can cause the one stock fpdm into thermal shutdown. If you go return you do not need dual fpdm's and only 1 stock fpdm is needed if you want to wire it so the pumps prime like factory. I have customers that want it to prime like factory and some that don't.

I can assist with whatever you need or questions you have. What is the ultimate goal for the car?

Thanks TRBO VNM, I know you are very knowledgeable. I believe I understand the returnless and return systems. Here are my goals: First my goals are fairly common; 2.76 upper with complete idler set, FIPK CAI, MAFia or a BA2600 maf, custom tune and ultimately I would like to run e85 (would upgrade to 80lb injectors then). As you can see they are pretty basic except I want to run corn. Without the corn I think I could just do a BAP and be done(I already have the wire upgrade). With the corn, I am not sure the BAP is going to be sufficient. At that point, upgrading a returnless or going return is pretty close to the same amount of money. I do like the option of using the FPDM to trigger the relays so it acts like stock for priming on a return system. I guess I have basically decided that I would just as soon do the system once and be done unless I go huge horsepower so it is a return system. I think the best option is to run a deadhead.

I am open to any suggestions you have and what kind of package you could put together for me. Either reply here or feel free to PM me.

Thanks!

 

[TRBO VNM]

Your initial goals are typical like you said. The rule of thumb has been the stock pumps with BAP should support 600rwhp. But I have had 2 cars recently only make 570-580 on that setup. The other thing you need to consider is how old the pumps are now because they don't last forever. So that 600hp rule of thumb may be dropping now. With your initial mods you are in the 400's. Doing a port and lower would put you over 500. With corn you will need 30-35% more capacity with the fuel system. Assuming 450, the pumps would need to support 585 at least. So you are on the edge of the BAP and stock pumps supporting that. The other issue is that I wouldn't use the stock filter with e85.

The other thing I would consider, depending on your future power level you want, maybe going with the ID1000's instead of the 80's, but that depends on your future goals. you could always sell the 80's later if needed.

 

[MG0h3]

Id 1000s and Fore Level 1E

Delete the "controller" and save a couple hundred if you can wire some 8 dollar relays in there.

 

[TRBO VNM]

Depending on what else he mentioned, ^ that is what I was going to recommend depending on the power goal, but rails can be added later if needed. The controller, that makes the wiring idiot proof basically. I have a lot, really majority of customers who hate wiring and are literally almost scared to do it. The controller makes it virtually plug and play. Not to mention, the wiring that is provided with the controller kit, you will not find another setup, company, manufacturer out there with better quality parts provided. You get what you pay for. Just like MM suspension.

 

[funmoneypit]

Depending on what else he mentioned, ^ that is what I was going to recommend depending on the power goal, but rails can be added later if needed. The controller, that makes the wiring idiot proof basically. I have a lot, really majority of customers who hate wiring and are literally almost scared to do it. The controller makes it virtually plug and play. Not to mention, the wiring that is provided with the controller kit, you will not find another setup, company, manufacturer out there with better quality parts provided. You get what you pay for. Just like MM suspension.

Is there a wiring diagram on here to wire up the two pump return system? I am pretty sure between my son (he is in his senior year to be an electrical engineer) and myself we can figure it out. I know the upgraded power wires to power the pumps. Use the FPDM to fire two relays for each of the pumps and then some other miscellaneous wiring. Of course the pumps, fuel hat, return fuel line, pressure regulator and assorted connectors. TRBO VNM, can you shoot me a parts list and cost? Could you do it with and without the controller? That would be great, thanks.

 

[TRBO VNM]

Yeah I can do that tomorrow. If you source the power and ground wire to match what fore provides, the cost of the controller isn't that bad. Buying a couple $10 relay kits is cheap but you need to still spend the money on the proper wiring. That wire upgrade you have will need to be removed.

Wiring diagrams, I am sure there is something on here but I do my own thing so I haven't looked on here.

 

[MG0h3]

Main power from the BAT should be like 8-10 Gauge. That will feed both relays.

PUMP 1 is triggered by the FPDM. Go into the HOW TO section and find Malcolms write up. How to wire pumps to prime like factory...

PUMP 2 is usually triggered by a Hobbs switch. Im still going to have the power (trigger) side of the relay fed by the FPDM and the Hobbs will give it ground.

Thats three terminals on both relays.

Then you just have the power going to the pump (s).

As TurboVNM said, the FORE controller is just a prebuilt all in one relay. Nice piece but I just bought two 30-40 amp PICO relays from Summit. 16 bucks.

You can find the Hobbs install info on here too but most just tap into the boost line running to the gauge. Tap into behind the glove box. One lead from the Hobbs will go to ground, the other goes back to the relay for the second pump. When you hit 5psi, it closes the circuit and in turn closes the circuit to the relay for the second pump.

 

[TRBO VNM]

Fore provides either 4 or 6 gauge wiring depending on controller used and heavy duty fuse holder and fuse. I would never run 10 gauge from battery. And for the demands and risks I think 8 gauge is cutting it close. I don't take shortcuts with my builds or customers. The larger wire you will never have to worry about overloading it or losing duty cycle. But it's not my money if people rather do things differently.

 

[funmoneypit]

Thanks guys for all the info. It has given me a lot to think about!

 

[MG0h3]

Thanks guys for all the info. It has given me a lot to think about!

My car came with 8 gauge to the BAP but its not copper. I think it says singer high performance or something and I guess its alumiunm? Fine strand wire when i opened it up.