MS3 Pro?
- Thread starter static74
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Did you do a thread on it? Just wondering what the install looks like and what sensors and harnesses I would need to order.
Do you retain all the factory wiring for brake lights, head lights, etc? Or do you make your own? Does the key still work? That kind of thing. Not clear on how all that works.
Thanks!
Do you retain all the factory wiring for brake lights, head lights, etc? Or do you make your own? Does the key still work? That kind of thing. Not clear on how all that works.
Thanks!
No I didn't do a thread on it.
Yes all the factory wiring etc. stays in place. You don't mess with brakes, headlights etc. The MS3-Pro is for controlling the engine only.
I retained the stock ECU as it drives the factory gauge cluster via CAN bus and is also part of anti-theft / alarm. However PATS will no longer stop your car from starting.
You just need to take engine control away from the stock ECU and splice it into the MS3.
So cut the ignition, injectors and IAC motor wires and connect them to the MS3 instead. Now it's controlling your engine and the stock ECU just thinks it is but its not.
As for inputs you can splice in and join most but not all. The crank trigger, cam sensor, TPS etc. you can just splice in and share with the MS3.
Coolant temp and intake air temp technically could be used but the Ford data on them is sketchy. You need to know exactly what resistance the sensors produce at various temps to get accurate readings. So what most everyone does, myself included, is install a few additional GM sensors. The GM temp sensors are very well documented and even pre-programmed into the MS3 so you just select from a drop down and tell it which sensor you have and boom its done.
You really only need one intake air temp. What we call IAT2 on our cars. So drill and tap the sensor into the lower intake manifold post blower. I went ahead and added an additional IAT sensor in the front bumper just so my data logs will show ambient temps which is good to know when you go back days later and are reviewing and comparing.
Fuel pumps, fans and all that stuff you could leave the stock ECU controlling. I migrated some over just so I don't have to switch between ECUs and tuning software when tweaking things.
The MS3 will control your fuel pump like OEM, key on prime and off etc. It also supports activating your second pump when certain conditions you program in are met. This allowed me to remove my custom built fuel pump module that activated my second pump only when needed.
It also has built in knock control which can do per cylinder timing retard. Hopefully it works as good as my J&S Vampire did as I already sold it. If not I'll be buying another one as that J&S system is amazing and saved my engine many times over the years. I may have been to hasty in selling it. We'll see.
Oh I almost forgot the most important. Your MAF sensor is no longer needed. While the MS3-Pro does support using your MAF a VE based system using a MAP sensor is so much better. You can add a simple, cheap 3 BAR GM MAP sensor. I put it under the dash behind the glove box and spliced it into the boost/vacuum line that runs back there to power the stock boost gauge.
I also added an optional 1 BAR GM MAP sensor under the dash hooked up to nothing that will feed as a barometric sensor input to the MS3. That way it will compensate for altitude changes automatically in the tune. Much like how the OEMs do it.
Also optional I added a GM flex fuel sensor which the MS3 completely supports so I can now run any blend of gasoline or ethanol. So I can pump in 91, 93, E70, E75, E85 or anything in between and the car figures out the fueling and timing automagically based on how I've tuned it. Very cool.
The MS3 will also do per cylinder widebands and temp probes. That seemed way over kill for me but I am running dual widebands. One per bank and unlike the stock ECU setup this is not just for data logging or monitoring but the MS3 will actually correct fuel trims per bank of cylinders the way I have it setup. I'm using dual Zeitronix ZT-3 widebands for that. Unfortunately my old speedhut wideband on the gauge cluster doesn't support that so I'm also running a third wideband, dynojet wideband2, to power the gauge. A little silly but that's what happens when you mix old legacy stuff with a new setup.
That's pretty much the bulk of the installation. Let me know if you have any questions.
Malcolm
Yes all the factory wiring etc. stays in place. You don't mess with brakes, headlights etc. The MS3-Pro is for controlling the engine only.
I retained the stock ECU as it drives the factory gauge cluster via CAN bus and is also part of anti-theft / alarm. However PATS will no longer stop your car from starting.
You just need to take engine control away from the stock ECU and splice it into the MS3.
So cut the ignition, injectors and IAC motor wires and connect them to the MS3 instead. Now it's controlling your engine and the stock ECU just thinks it is but its not.
As for inputs you can splice in and join most but not all. The crank trigger, cam sensor, TPS etc. you can just splice in and share with the MS3.
Coolant temp and intake air temp technically could be used but the Ford data on them is sketchy. You need to know exactly what resistance the sensors produce at various temps to get accurate readings. So what most everyone does, myself included, is install a few additional GM sensors. The GM temp sensors are very well documented and even pre-programmed into the MS3 so you just select from a drop down and tell it which sensor you have and boom its done.
You really only need one intake air temp. What we call IAT2 on our cars. So drill and tap the sensor into the lower intake manifold post blower. I went ahead and added an additional IAT sensor in the front bumper just so my data logs will show ambient temps which is good to know when you go back days later and are reviewing and comparing.
Fuel pumps, fans and all that stuff you could leave the stock ECU controlling. I migrated some over just so I don't have to switch between ECUs and tuning software when tweaking things.
The MS3 will control your fuel pump like OEM, key on prime and off etc. It also supports activating your second pump when certain conditions you program in are met. This allowed me to remove my custom built fuel pump module that activated my second pump only when needed.
It also has built in knock control which can do per cylinder timing retard. Hopefully it works as good as my J&S Vampire did as I already sold it. If not I'll be buying another one as that J&S system is amazing and saved my engine many times over the years. I may have been to hasty in selling it. We'll see.
Oh I almost forgot the most important. Your MAF sensor is no longer needed. While the MS3-Pro does support using your MAF a VE based system using a MAP sensor is so much better. You can add a simple, cheap 3 BAR GM MAP sensor. I put it under the dash behind the glove box and spliced it into the boost/vacuum line that runs back there to power the stock boost gauge.
I also added an optional 1 BAR GM MAP sensor under the dash hooked up to nothing that will feed as a barometric sensor input to the MS3. That way it will compensate for altitude changes automatically in the tune. Much like how the OEMs do it.
Also optional I added a GM flex fuel sensor which the MS3 completely supports so I can now run any blend of gasoline or ethanol. So I can pump in 91, 93, E70, E75, E85 or anything in between and the car figures out the fueling and timing automagically based on how I've tuned it. Very cool.
The MS3 will also do per cylinder widebands and temp probes. That seemed way over kill for me but I am running dual widebands. One per bank and unlike the stock ECU setup this is not just for data logging or monitoring but the MS3 will actually correct fuel trims per bank of cylinders the way I have it setup. I'm using dual Zeitronix ZT-3 widebands for that. Unfortunately my old speedhut wideband on the gauge cluster doesn't support that so I'm also running a third wideband, dynojet wideband2, to power the gauge. A little silly but that's what happens when you mix old legacy stuff with a new setup.
That's pretty much the bulk of the installation. Let me know if you have any questions.
Malcolm
Malcom,
With the stock ecu still running the gauges will the obd port still function correctly? Been looking at a stand alone for my 2v not my cobra but it sounds like i could possibly run the ms3pro and still do emissions checks then and have my car be legal
With the stock ecu still running the gauges will the obd port still function correctly? Been looking at a stand alone for my 2v not my cobra but it sounds like i could possibly run the ms3pro and still do emissions checks then and have my car be legal
Yes the ODB2 port is still there and functional. You would need to turn off codes in your tune so you don't get a CEL due to missing coils & injectors on the stock ECU.
Consider the Holley system also. We have a Facebook group specifically dedicated to it for mod motors. Read the pinned post at the top, it lists out most of the parts and pieces you need to make a complete system. And same as MS3, you can keep your stock PCM in place.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1728023557521559/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1728023557521559/
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I vote the Holley system.. You can get the Davis Technology Traction control setup.. That setup is worth it's money in gold. 
I vote the Holley system.. You can get the Davis Technology Traction control setup.. That setup is worth it's money in gold.
I'm having a hard time justifying a system that is nearly four times the cost of a MS3 Pro system, especially when the feature list is nearly identical.
I vote the Holley system.. You can get the Davis Technology Traction control setup.. That setup is worth it's money in gold.
MS3-Pro has a whole list of traction control methods and types it does. A lot of them came about to get around track rules etc. For example some tracks may not allow wheel speed sensors, in which case you can use RPM over time or rates of acceleration etc. Pretty excited to play with those myself
Actually the MS3 family of systems have a greater feature list. It's a community driven project unlike others so it supports just about every engine out there from snow mobiles to train engines. It's crazy.
I studied a lot of the various aftermarket systems and they all have pros and cons. The Holley is well known for having an overly simplistic interface which makes it a lot less intimidating and easy to start with. While reviewing I quickly realized it was to restrictive for me. That's a personal preference thing of course which is what lead me to the MS3 which is very modular and allows guys like me to get in and tinker. Super simple, for example I added bluetooth and now I can just be standing next to my car with the laptop and data log / tune etc. All through bluetooth. In fact I've had the key on and been sitting up in the living room on the couch with the laptop playing around with the tune lol.
Most other brands I ruled out due to cost but if you were a high end racer some of the more expensive ones have reps and tech support that travel to the major events around the country helping you right there on site. That's part of where that cost comes from.
I didn't want to build custom harnesses and wanted the Holley dash. Plug and play and the ease of tuning is what mattered most to me. With the Holley I have all that, and I have the HP and got the the entire system for well under 2 grand. I'm not knocking the MS3 system at all, just not the path I wanted to go down.
The plug and play harness / setup is nice. I wish MS3 would hurry up with that. They have multiple plug and play ECUs and harnesses for many applications, mazdas and many others. Including fox body mustangs, some SN95 applications, LS motors etc. but not for our 4.6 mod motors yet that I've seen.
I don't mind splicing a few wires but nothing like just plugging it in. Had the MS3's feature set not been so compelling to me I would have gone with the Holley setup.
Does your Holley system do full sequential injections and ignition? or does it do batch firing on the injectors and wasted spark? The Dominator setup I was looking at to get all those features was going to be over 2 grand.
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I will say my setup wasn't cheap. That's awesome about the MS3 though As long as everyone is happy with their setup that's what matters.
As long as everyone is happy with their setup that's what matters.
Full sequential and it also drives low impedance injectors with no additional box and has the wideband integrated into the system. It's super easy to install especially if you left the stock pcm in.
I think both systems have their pluses and minuses, just have to determine which is best for you. For me I wanted the Holley dash and get rid of the factory cluster since it's really just a dummy gauge and I liked the look of it Holleys offering. I was able to sell my big money id1300'and get some cheap Holley 160's to fund the dash
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That's cool. The MS3-Pro does not drive low impedance injectors without a driver box. However the MS3-Ultimate does.
Did yours have dual widebands or single? While the MS3 supports up to 12 widebands and HEGO temp probes I opted for just dual widebands. One per bank of cylinders. The logistical nightmare of fitting in 8 widebands kept me from going there. I've seen cars with it and pretty amazing watching individual cylinder correction on A/F as well as timing. Maybe some day I'll upgrade but not right now.
The Race Pack dashes are supported by MS3 through CAN BUS which is pretty cool. I like the stock gauges though so opted for a tablet where the radio used to be running an MS3 app displaying gauges there. Not as cool as the race pack but they're $600 to over $1000 depending on which verison you get and the tablet was $40 lol.
Do you have to fiddle f**k around with that tablet every time you turn the car on to get the dash to display? Does the CAN bus charge it?
Nope I got it all automated. It works with key on / off power. There's an app that automatically puts the tablet to sleep and wakes it up when power goes away and comes back on. It wakes up and connects in about 2 to 5 seconds which is decent. So it's completely hands free and automated.
Long term usage over the summer will give me a better idea as to how solid and reliable it is long term.
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