Actually, if your phb is level at ride height, and is 25 inches long, for every 4 inches of suspension travel, your axle will move 0.322 inches. I believe ( *****DISCLAIMER, "I BELIEVE"****) that I read somewhere that the factory suspension allows for more the 2 inches of movement during hard cornering. That is cause for a ton of bind right there.
panhard bars in stock style suspensions
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Actually, if your phb is level at ride height, and is 25 inches long, for every 4 inches of suspension travel, your axle will move 0.322 inches. I believe ( *****DISCLAIMER, "I BELIEVE"****) that I read somewhere that the factory suspension allows for more the 2 inches of movement during hard cornering. That is cause for a ton of bind right there.
So even less. My point is even more valid. I want a fays2 over a phb. But money may not allow for that
Yes a "tiangulated 4 link" was designed to be cheap to produce first and to handle later, and they all bind.
Lots of great information in this thread. I am currently building my 96 Cobra for summer daily, autocrosser and would like to improve my 1/4 times
I pretty much have the MM grip box less the steering shaft and Panhard bar( many of the parts are due to go in this spring). The Panhard bar will not fit with my exhaust set up and I am trying to do this on a budget. Given the fact I do not want to change my exhaust set up what would be best set up for the rear given my goals and constraints. Thanks in advance.
I pretty much have the MM grip box less the steering shaft and Panhard bar( many of the parts are due to go in this spring). The Panhard bar will not fit with my exhaust set up and I am trying to do this on a budget. Given the fact I do not want to change my exhaust set up what would be best set up for the rear given my goals and constraints. Thanks in advance.
IMO the suspension set up in our cars is far more "drag" oriented than auto-X, The best move I've seen for drag cars is to beef the UCA mounts (for sure!) and install one of these......
79-04 Ford Mustang Pro Series Chrome Moly Anti Roll Bar Kit
in fact this whole deal is a good idea...
79-98 Ford Mustang Pro Series Chrome Moly Rear Suspension Kit - UPR Products
I've installed several of these and they work great with decent shocks on stock style suspensions.
They are however almost totally the opposite of what you need for an autocross car.
The kit that fixes the most problems (drag and auto-x) all at once is probably one of those with a torque arm. Unfortunately you can only do so much with the stock style stuff, but definitely stay away from a Panhard on the stock suspension. Something that you should also not forget is that once you lower you car you have now driven the front roll center into the pavement, taller ball joints will fix this, and a bump steer kit will fix the B/S I would say that the largest and best handling improvement that I have used on a stock suspension (that has been lowered) is the front end kit mentioned above.
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BTW apparently MM agrees with this...........
Sigh...
MAXIMUM MOTORSPORTS RECOMMENDS USING A PANHARD BAR ON A MUSTANG.
You can take what their engineers (yes, they employ engineers) have proven for years, or you can listen to.. other folks.
In fact, this is what their site says: "A Panhard Bar makes a huge improvement in handling. Great for street driving, drag racing, autocross, and the open-track."
Great. got it? Great... as in really good. As in 'mo betta. :beer:
MAXIMUM MOTORSPORTS RECOMMENDS USING A PANHARD BAR ON A MUSTANG.
You can take what their engineers (yes, they employ engineers) have proven for years, or you can listen to.. other folks.
In fact, this is what their site says: "A Panhard Bar makes a huge improvement in handling. Great for street driving, drag racing, autocross, and the open-track."
Great. got it? Great... as in really good. As in 'mo betta. :beer:
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Watts/tq-arm. Problem solved. Why the hell would you half ass it?? No clue! Do it right!
Too bad they forgot to put that on the instructions then, here's another copy in case you missed the first one, which is right above your rant.
that is one solution.
The "other" problem with using a panhard bar with the stock suspension is that the upper arms are designed to be neutral at the "engineered height" once we lower the car then that will actually compress those bushings, basically making them (sort of) pre compressed, or essentially harder as they now have a head start on their arc.This compounds the problem of the PHB.
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what is the best tq arm for the money? MM? or are there others?
IMO you can never go wrong with MM but yes there are plenty out there, Griggs is one.
On the instructions?! So you're saying you buy products to see how well they work by reading the instructions?!
It's on their website, here let me copy/paste again so you(and more importantly, those who find this searching in the future) don't miss it:
A Panhard Bar makes a huge improvement in handling. Great for street driving, drag racing, autocross, and the open-track.
-Stop suffering from the Mustang's rear-steer tendency.
-Improves stability during cornering.
-Fewer steering wheel corrections are needed to stay on line.
-Improves straight-line stability.
-Improves handling predictability.
-Helps keep car straight during a drag race launch.
Maximum Motorsports and Griggs aren't in the business of selling products that don't work, folks. If they sell it, it's probably a great addition to the suspension of your Mustang. I don't know how else to respond to such a silly thread.
Here, here's a little more, straight from MM's site:
The Root of the Problem
Solid-axle-equipped Mustangs were manufactured with a four-link rear suspension design that requires the rear upper control arms to do two jobs. One job is to locate the axle laterally. Unfortunately, compromises in the design of the Mustang four-link prevent the rear axle from being precisely located. The axle will shift from side-to-side by up to 2 inches. This inconsistent movement of the rear axle causes a rear-steer effect.
Rear-steer means that the rear of the car is steering itself, without any steering input from the driver. This rear-steer behavior makes the Mustang unstable, and requires corrective action by the driver. This can make the driver feel very uncomfortable, as they do not have complete control of the rear of the car. While that four-link design might be suitable for a commuter car, it cannot provide the handling prowess expected of a high performance vehicle.
The MM Panhard Bar Solution
The MM Panhard Bar adds an aluminum rod as a lateral suspension link between the rear axle and the Mustang chassis. This simple design precisely controls the side-to-side location of the axle to eliminate rear steer. The unstable and unpredictable feeling typically associated with the Mustang four-link suspension is gone, making your car safer and easier to drive!
Why choose a MM Panhard Bar, and not a Watts Link?
There are two good methods of controlling the side-to-side location of a rear axle, a Panhard Bar or a Watts Link. MM's Engineering Team chose the Panhard Bar because it allows a much lower roll center than a typical Watts Link design. A lower roll center reduces the tendency for the inside rear tire to lift and unload during cornering. As a welcome bonus, a Panhard Bar is far less complex, less expensive, lighter, and allows for the use of tail pipes!
Upper Control Arm Bushings
Whether or not your Mustang is equipped with a MM Panhard Bar, it is very important that the rubber upper control arm bushings be retained. This is one application where the compliance of a rubber bushing is a benefit. Retaining the rubber upper control arm bushings is a necessary compromise to achieve acceptable handling. See the Rear Lower Control Arm section here for more information about control arm bushings.
How it Works: The Complex Interactions of a Four-link rear suspension plus a Panhard bar
As the suspension moves, the rigid Panhard Bar causes the Mustang's rear axle to move through a different, and better path than the stock four-link design. This requires the upper arms to physically change length as the suspension moves. Obviously, the metal control arm cannot change length. But its effective length, the distance between the control arm's two pivot points, can change because of the inherent compliance of a rubber bushing. If the ability of the upper control arms to change their effective length is hindered by a noncompliant bushing material, the suspension will bind up, and not move freely. The resulting restriction in the ability of the rear suspension to freely articulate will cause poor handling; the car will have a tendency to oversteer, and it may do so in a sudden and unpredictable manner.
Unique Features of the Maximum Motorsports Mustang Panhard Bar:
-MM's Panhard rod is the longest possible at 38" between pivot points. This minimizes the amount of the rear axle's lateral movement due to the arc of the rod's travel. The longer the rod, the larger the radius of the arc. The larger the radius, the smaller the sideways movement during bump and droop travel.
-A single slot on the MM chassis mount allows for vertical height adjustment to keep the Panhard rod level at different vehicle ride heights. A level bar minimizes lateral motion over the range of suspension travel.
-Large 3/4" rod-ends are mounted in double shear at both ends.
-The unique design and quality materials of the MM axle and chassis mounts ensure they are strong enough to not break, and stiff enough to not flex, even when cornering loads exceed well over 1 G.
-Maximum Motorsports' boxed panhard bar axle mount bracket encloses the rod-end for a rigid, non-flexing mount.
-The MM chassis bracket mounts to the rear frame rails of the car, not the flimsy trunk floor or spare tire well.
-MM's exclusive frame panhard bar frame inserts fit inside the rear frame rails. These provide a structurally sound attachment point for the MM Panhard Bar chassis mount.
-The MM Panhard Bar is designed to clear the factory tailpipe routing. Aftermarket tailpipes that follow the factory routing, such as Flowmaster and DynoMax will clear the MM Panhard Bar without modifications.
-The MM Panhard rod is mounted as low as possible to lower the Mustang rear roll center height (which is essentially at the same height as the rod). A low roll center reduces the tendency for the inside rear tire to lift and unload during cornering. The roll center height of the MM Panhard Bar is considerably lower than what can be achieved with a Watts Link.
-The Panhard rod itself is a lightweight aluminum tube. It is available in either natural finish or polished. The identical item is used on NASCAR stock cars.
-While a properly installed MM Panhard Bar is compatible with the standard T/A differential cover, we do recommend the new low-profile T/A cover to ensure there is no interference.
-The next logical step after the installation of the MM Panhard Bar is the installation of a MM Torque-arm. Upon installation of the MM Torque-arm the rear upper control arms are be completely removed. This solves the bushing deflection problem, and finally removes the last source of binding in the rear suspension. Maximum Motorsports also has complete MM Torque-arm Suspension System packages.
Easily fixed by loosening the upper arms after a spring install then tightening them again. :dw:
Half ass? The only half ass job has already been done by Ford, with the factory suspension setup lol.
But I can give you one reason anyway:
Griggs severe duty torque arm: $800
Griggs panhard: $400
MM torque arm springs(yes, you have to change the rear springs with a torque arm): $140
Total price: $1340
And...MM panhard: $360. :beer:
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STRAIGHT FROM GRIGG'S SITE:
The TorqueArm when coupled with a Panhard bar or Watts link is the best in terms consistency of control and improved braking due to is constant and consistent tire loading regardless of ride height changes as the car encounters surface irregularities, cresting hills, etc. Compared to 3 link, 4 link, 5 link or IRS designs, the improvement in car control under power offsets any arguable merits of the other systems in a high powered rear drive vehicle that is without aid of high down-force aerodynamic devices. For this reason the same basic geometry is used on most Sprint Cars, Supermodifieds, Late Model Stock Cars, and other professional race cars around the world where rules allow.
The TorqueArm when coupled with a Panhard bar or Watts link is the best in terms consistency of control and improved braking due to is constant and consistent tire loading regardless of ride height changes as the car encounters surface irregularities, cresting hills, etc. Compared to 3 link, 4 link, 5 link or IRS designs, the improvement in car control under power offsets any arguable merits of the other systems in a high powered rear drive vehicle that is without aid of high down-force aerodynamic devices. For this reason the same basic geometry is used on most Sprint Cars, Supermodifieds, Late Model Stock Cars, and other professional race cars around the world where rules allow.
No, I tested the product and I can say unequivocally that if they install the panhard bar with the stock links and say it works they are full of shit.
and that makes them longer?
known throughout the universe as snap oversteer, which gets worse with a panhard bar.
They recommend a bearing lower control arm and a stock upper.
No, it eradicates the additional bind you referenced above by installing lowering springs and raising the arms into their operative arc slightly, pre-loading the bushing.
Snap oversteer is caused by the nonlinear rise in wheel or roll rate as a result of bind. There can be MANY causes of this, striking the jounce bumpers, a dramatic change of the roll center, and bushing lock, to name a few.
Lifting off the throttle mid corner... can cause sudden oversteer. This is not a result of the panhard, and can be tuned out of the suspension in several different ways.
I just picked up an mm panhard. Finally came in! Now I'm looking at the mm instructions and thinking... All the measuring...... Grrr
Us it really all that bad?
Us it really all that bad?
Their instructions make bit look horrible. That's why the fays2 watts looked good to me.
No it's relatively simple to install, just read through this thread, keep it in mind and see for yourself if I'm right.
They have to, not only that but I experimented with several uppers to try and find one that is sloppy enough to work. But again loose rubber bushings will only compromise the handling in another area, most like axle tramp.
in the FOX line up it's because you have the UCAs trying to seek a neutral center
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