Reinforcing My Stock 5.8

[Jam421]

Currently I'm at 716rwhp at 16.5psi boost on 93 octane . It's not been to the track...mostly weekend roll races. I'm considering the OPG/TC upgrade for safer WOT top end. Not sure if my goals will be looking for much more HP. Is it too costly to consider throwing money towards upgraded rods etc ? Not sure if that's cost effective insurance to avoid the tragedy of breakage. My shop would likely say if we're in that deep just BUILD IT..and consider cams lol!

 

[biminiLX]

IMO save to do it right, meaning go for cams and rods.
Once you do that you can go right to 1000rwhp, because with stock rods and cams you’re always playing with fire between 750-800rwhp.
Just my advice.
Plus if E85, you can go 11:1.
My only regret is keeping it closer to stock compression, but I’m sure I’ll eventually sleeve it and then go 11:1
-J

 

[Catmonkey]

The allure of more power is very tempting, but the inability to apply that power on the street is also very disappointing. Mine's built because I had a head gasket that failed and the engine would have had to come apart for a rebuild anyway. I do have cams, and they're not that radical, but I also find myself slowing the blower down to reduce wheel spin. If you're doing it for bragging rights, lie. LOL! If you really need a stout lower end, build it. It's only money, right? I just think there's better ways to spend $15-$20 grand, but I have no regrets.

 

[biminiLX]

Cat you’re exactly correct.
Horsepower is the easy part these days, and easy to get away from the intended goal of the build.
That is the one biggest benefit of turbo, ability to dial in a wide range of power choices.
Tire technology is really improving and allowing more useable power to be possible.
For my car in particular, it’s a stick, weighs 4000# with me and makes 950rwtq at the hit when whacking it from a roll from the street.
The ONLY chance I have is to have a serious tire, either the Hoosier Pro compound 325/45/18 or MT ET R 315/50/17 drag radials.
For street car builds, the guy spending the money needs to be honest with what he wants and the tire he’s willing to drive on the street.
A street tune can always neuter the torque to allow traction, but usually the car is left feeling lazy.

Sorry if that went off topic, but Jam you are correct in looking at insurance, but 2 main questions:
1) how long do you plan on keeping the car?
2) how does the car currently work with the power and tires—is there anything you want to improve upon or wish it would do better/different?
-J

 

[Jam421]

Bimini...Catmonkey....Thanks. It's guys like you who I know have been there done that. My goal was not really much more HP ....maybe 775-800RW? But certainly not on my stock set up. The thoughts going thru my head are to build it up now while it's still 100% healthy. But I was not thinking that build up could cost me 15-20K . I was hoping to be around 10K...but WTH do I know!

how does the car currently work with the power and tires—is there anything you want to improve upon or wish it would do better/different?

The car works phenomenal to me with the current power & tires. My best roll is anywhere from 15-40mph (1900-3500rpm) in 2nd with an instant stab to set the 19psi MT 305's and they HOOK.
I did begin to look around and honestly found nothing I'd like to swap with my GT500. I looked at every vintage muscle car and having owned 3 different manufacturers of 427SC replicas I thought that would lure me back to the little Cobras. But the only Cobra I realized I want is an FFR ...or specifically my old FFR which I sold in '2010 during a divorce but it actually was actually spotted at a show for sale in my area last year.
I thought of a C6 ZR1 ...FAST as hell....but they all the C6's are now starting to look the same to me. I thought of a C7 ZR1 ( my buddy has triple black) but despite price drops of 20+K that a HUGE money leap ...and....that would not stay stock. I am mostly attracted to the Corvette's (RED) because I have a '64 with 383 stroker that sits next to my Shelby now.
But honestly the need for change is fading. I love the way our GT500's look and like most of the guys here it took 2 steps forward to get it 100% sorted out and looking as it does today. SOooo...then came the thought perhaps I should just " bump it up" a bit. However, I fear where I'm at now in power.... the wisest pathway to making more sensible/manageable power is to reinforce my internals. Funny thing is if I do "bump it up" losing the 4.10's for 373's would be the likely advice...and I love the gears ->) ! Maybe some OPG/TC insurance will take away some fear when I'm spinning her up . That's quoted to be around $1600.

 

[biminiLX]

Awesome Vette!
So, if you like the car, plan to keep it and don’t want a huge jump in power, I’d say do it and do it right.
First, keep the gears.
Second, fortify the bottom end. You can do it on a budget. However, the first issue is you have to know what you’re working with. IF the stock bores are true and the spray liner is thick enough, JDM makes a set of rods that are drop in. Basically, keep the stock pistons and rings, just balance with the new rods and reinstall. It sounds crazy to reuse piston rings, but talking to Mahle twice about it, if everything is in good shape, no issue in doing this.
Can you do any work your self?
If you can, taking the longblock to JDM will allow them to assess your options and return your longblock with Billet OPGs, correctly timed cams, upgraded secondary chains, rods, etc.
This way, the engine is now safe up to 1000rwhp, is more efficient with mild cams, and pulls clean to 7000-7200 and makes an easy 800rwhp right at the top end where you can enjoy it and matching your 4.10s.
Good luck, it’s worth it to basically keep the car as you enjoy it, being confident it’s safe all while gaining power to an easy 800rwhp.
Shoot me a PM if you need and specifics.
-J

 

[Klaus]

the spray liner is thick enough, JDM makes a set of rods that are drop in.

Are there many guys sticking with spray? At 12k miles it was pretty thin in mine.

 

[biminiLX]

Really depends.
It’s pretty thin as it comes.
Most of the builders and shops I trust who make the big power all say stay with it when possible.
1200hp and over 7200rpm are the magic numbers of when you need to step up the game to sleeves and a Billet crank.
If the spray liner is good, a quick .005 hone can be done.
That’s why I said the first step really is checking what you’ve got. Just WAG pissing in the wind without inspection.
-J

 

[Catmonkey]

Cost adds up fast, especially if you have to have a shop do it all for you. Start throwing in gaskets, fasteners, timing components, etc. the cost adds up fast. I'm also figuring on sleeving the block. I agree with Jay, if you're going to do it, do it right. Also figure on your car being out of commission for a while.

 

[Jam421]

Jay....thanks on the old Stingray. It's a '64 with a '67 L88 hood, flared ..nothing matching with a Tremec 600, 450/450 383 stroker. Guys on the C2 Forums are a bit "uppity" & there's a few who declare blasphemy whenever they see ANY Stingray not 100% vintage. But it's all modern drivetrain, runs perfect and is still Old School Baby! Just another reason I love the Mustang Forums.
Just visited JDM's website & they're 2.5 hrs from me. I copied your recommendations and will give JDM a call tomorrow to poke around on options available to me.
Cat...I will be sure to ask the questions about the often overlooked "little things" that can quickly knock the socks off a guy's budget. Much Appreciated Bud.......
Always so much to learn from you guys->)!

 

[gimmie11s]

IMO save to do it right, meaning go for cams and rods.
Once you do that you can go right to 1000rwhp, because with stock rods and cams you’re always playing with fire between 750-800rwhp.
Just my advice.
Plus if E85, you can go 11:1.
My only regret is keeping it closer to stock compression, but I’m sure I’ll eventually sleeve it and then go 11:1
-J

Compression, boost, E85 = Match made in heaven.

OP... Listen to this man.

 

[gimmie11s]

Really depends.
It’s pretty thin as it comes.
Most of the builders and shops I trust who make the big power all say stay with it when possible.
1200hp and over 7200rpm are the magic numbers of when you need to step up the game to sleeves and a Billet crank.
If the spray liner is good, a quick .005 hone can be done.
That’s why I said the first step really is checking what you’ve got. Just WAG pissing in the wind without inspection.
-J

Do you buy new pistons with a .005 hone or is that .005 mild enough that you reuse stock bore pistons?

I loved my GT500 at 640 whp but really hated lifting the throttle at 6500 rpm. I felt like the party was just starting at 6500. 7200 rpm in that car would have been nuts and it probably would have made another 40-50 hp just in rpm alone due to the rock solid/flat torque curve.

If/when i buy another s197 gt500, one of the first things it's going to get is a set of rods so i can let it spin.

 

[RBB]

Jay....thanks on the old Stingray. It's a '64 with a '67 L88 hood, flared ..nothing matching with a Tremec 600, 450/450 383 stroker. Guys on the C2 Forums are a bit "uppity" & there's a few who declare blasphemy whenever they see ANY Stingray not 100% vintage. But it's all modern drivetrain, runs perfect and is still Old School Baby! Just another reason I love the Mustang Forums.
Just visited JDM's website & they're 2.5 hrs from me. I copied your recommendations and will give JDM a call tomorrow to poke around on options available to me.
Cat...I will be sure to ask the questions about the often overlooked "little things" that can quickly knock the socks off a guy's budget. Much Appreciated Bud.......
Always so much to learn from you guys->)!

I don't recall the little stuff like fasteners and gaskets adding up to more than a few hundred bucks, which is just a drop in the bucket when you're looking at the cost of a build. Where things really start to add on to the cost is when you upgrade timing components. If you're going to do cams with the build then JDM is going to recommend you go with the Roush Yates secondary chains. The sprockets (at least the secondary) are definitely an issue as well, seen more than a few crack with cams. Cloyes used to make a set of adjustable billet secondary sprockets that are no longer in production, so I'd be sure to ask what the options are now. I'm not aware that there are any if you want to keep the stock valve covers....

Worst case scenario, definitely go with a fresh set of OEM timing components and have them cryo treated and microblued.

 

[Catmonkey]

I guess it depends on how turn-key you get parts of the project, but a couple hundred bucks in fasteners and gaskets is laughable. I know I've got around $1,000 in ARP fasteners alone between head and main studs, cam tower studs and other ancillary bolts that are not one-time use Ford hardware. At least $150 in head gaskets and I don't reuse any of the original o-ring type gaskets throughout the engine, none of which are inexpensive. I suppose you could buy new Ford hardware, or god-forbid, reuse original bolts for a budget build, but why cheap out on one-time use fasteners. I'll bet I have $2,000 in timing components, tensioners, sprockets, chain guides and chains, excluding cams, valve springs and retainers. Hell, a set of 4 ARP cam bolts is $80.

 

[RBB]

I guess it depends on how turn-key you get parts of the project, but a couple hundred bucks in fasteners and gaskets is laughable. I know I've got around $1,000 in ARP fasteners alone between head and main studs, cam tower studs and other ancillary bolts that are not one-time use Ford hardware. At least $150 in head gaskets and I don't reuse any of the original o-ring type gaskets throughout the engine, none of which are inexpensive. I suppose you could buy new Ford hardware, or god-forbid, reuse original bolts for a budget build, but why cheap out on one-time use fasteners. I'll bet I have $2,000 in timing components, tensioners, sprockets, chain guides and chains, excluding cams, valve springs and retainers. Hell, a set of 4 ARP cam bolts is $80.

Now that you spell it all out I'll retract my original statement considering all the ARP hardware involved. I ordered gaskets and some other ancillaries online and took them up to JDM with my heads, but the ARP hardware was all included as part of the assembly costs for me so I wasn't really considering it. In your case, having ordered it all yourself, I'm sure the costs really stand out more. Maybe I was trying to forget. At that point you're in so deep that another $1,000 doesn't mean much, though. If you've committed to a build I don't think the costs of the assembly hardware are going to deter you. There's really no way to budget build an aluminum block 5.4/5.8. You've got your basic/solid build, which is pretty steep as far as these things go, but it's done right. Then you've got your all out builds like Bad Company did where no expense is spared.

I had a lot of $$ into timing components/heads as well. Stainless valves, upgraded chains/sprockets/tensioners, valve springs/retainers, and cryo/microblue on everything added up fast. Might as well do it once the right way while the engine is out, it'll probably cost you more later on if you don't.

 

[Catmonkey]

Even if it's included in the pricing of the short block or long block, it's a component of the ultimate price and many times these bits are extra cost "options" depending on the builder. If you don't have the opportunity to price fasteners, it may catch you by surprise as to cost. Yes, it's incidental, but it's still incremental to total cost of the build. I sort of did my build in stages, as the timing changes came later, and I did all but the short block assembly myself, so it's harder to realize what you have in it, until you start adding things up. Even though I have no outside labor involved in my cost, some of that savings had to be invested in specialized tools. It's a big nut and it's easy to underestimate. I found myself saying, it's only another couple hundred bucks on too many occasions. I could see where someone getting a turn key price can get taken advantage of with "upgrades" along the way.

 

[Jam421]

OK...so spoke to a couple to JDM & a couple of proven local Mustang Shops in my area.
Given I don't track the car but I do play on spirited weekends...and I do power shift in the 6500 range......perhaps rather than have a built motor.... the consensus is OPG Upgardes :
ARP TENSIONER ARM GUIDE PINS (QTY 2),
HD SECONDARY TIMING CHAIN SET 4V,
FRPP GT500 OIL PUMP M-6600-F46,
BILLET GEARS, BILLET 4V CRANK GEAR
This should give me peace of mind as long as I don't get stupid and crave more HP.
At 66yrs old.......manual Shelby....gears.....it may seem best to stay with....... what I know LOL !
Thanks Fellas for all the advice !
Jam