Roush Phase 3 on 2011 GT manual, power output low... help!

[stang910]

Cheeseclock, I can't help but laugh at some of the things you've said. It's obvious to me your one of "those people" that already have all the answers and want to tell everybody else they're wrong. Maybe the reason you couldn't get your pulley and tune is because that vendor would rather turn your money down than deal with your never ending complaints. Then in the end, after trying everything possible to correct your complaints, you post how unhappy you are and how bad the vendor is all over the internet. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if other vendors were already warned not to deal with you.

Since you've already stated you know more then the people at Roush why don't you fix the problem on your own, without Roush or anybody else's help for that matter. Of course your probably gonna tell me how wrong I am because you do have all the answers, so allow me to apologize in advance.

BTW most of the unintelligent people in this thread that tried to tell you how much an aftermarket tune will make a difference are speaking from actual experience. Yes I already know your issues goes deeper then the tune, at least you think they do, so no need to repeat it again. If you do decide to get an aftermarket tune I feel sorry for the poor guy that does business with you.

 

[cheeseclock]

I've never stated that a tune wouldn't make it faster. I believe if you could read, you would have noticed that. As for vendors, Justin at VMP is awesome. He answered questions and was very helpful. His suggestion was larger injectors due to increased fuel demands above about 7100 RPM with the 80mm pulley. He stated that fuel starvation can still happen even with the boost-a-pump. Brenspeed, well... I stated my experience with them. If they'd like to comment, they can feel free to do so. The OP called Shawn at AED. It's second hand information, so I've left the vast majority of it out, as doing otherwise would be very unfair to them. As for Roush, Greg Banish was great to talk with. I would never claim to even touch his knowledge about tuning. He's written books and is pretty much a god in the GM world. Let me give you the last email that was sent from Roush:

Christopher,

Greg and his team have capered data to the attached sheet you have sent us. Few things that stand out, your IAT temp are very high and you have some knock activity. Please confirm you have strong movement within your intercooler reservoir and you are running premium fuel 91 to 93oct. Greg is copied on this email for your confirmation.
Thank You
Chris Doyle
Supervisor, Roush & SLP Performance Customer Service and Warranty

After which, Greg sent me this:

More to Chris’s point, the IAT’s were VERY HIGH. It looks like most of the run was done in the 130*F range. Getting the intake temps that hot takes a bit of trying, like taking the car off the street, heat soak with a closed hood and then immediate dyno runs without a fan cooling the intercooler type of conditions. (We’ve done similar tests on purpose before in an attempt to test the robustness of our system)

By comparison, we ran our test vehicle here yesterday in Phase3 trim on the road. We saw inlet temps of about 86*F in traffic and 90*F at the end of a 3rd gear run. Changes of this magnitude can easily account for 30+RWHP due to loss of density and knock resistance. The EEC is programmed to automatically adjust to temperature to keep things safe, but there’s no dodging the fact that hotter air makes less power on supercharged systems. We really need to verify that your intercooler, pump, and heat exchanger are working correctly. A custom tune will not fix inlet temps.

Further, your log shows a knock adjustment of -3*. This may be a function of the hot inlet temps, but verifying fuel quality is not a bad idea. We would expect the EEC’s temp functions to correct enough that the knock sensor only has to account for fuel quality issues. It may sound silly, but double check to make sure that the two sensors are plugged in to the correct harness plugs too. The EEC has cylinder by cylinder knock detection, so if the sensors are swapped you may have detection issues that skew spark delivery.

Greg Banish
Powertrain Development Manager

My Response:

That log was on the highway on a 85* day. Coolant flow is good. It nearly spills out when you remove the cap. Knock sensors are wired correctly. The only change was the removal of the plastic guides per the instructions. I have a 2011 which has an unvented hood if that makes a difference.

Also, I logged IAT2. IAT2 is close to what others seem to be seeing according to the internet.

Additionally, isn't a negative knock value actually calling for more timing? I'm traveling today, so sorry for the fragmented responses. I hate typing on a phone.




Please tell me what a douchebag I've been to these folks... My comment about understanding the car better than they do was obviously out of frustration. IAT and IAT2 are much different. The former is taken at the MAF, the latter in the intercooler section of the intake manifold, beneath the supercharger. I never even logged IAT for them because it wasn't asked of me. I only logged the parameters which were specified. Also, as far as I know, my statement about timing is correct. At ~6800 RPM, the log reads -3 for knock. Again, from what I've read, this means it's actually calling for more timing, not less. As a little bit of background information, I've worked with industrial control systems for nearly two decades. I too am a programmer. I've been a controls engineer since my early 20's, initially starting out in a machine building shop designing control systems for custom machinery. If I'm dealing with a system which I'm not intimately familiar with, it's very normal for me to talk with those who are experts. This is what I do for a living. I'm certainly not going to be rude to someone when I'm trying to understand a problem. The blanket statement that I should just get an aftermarket tune doesn't explain why this thing behaves the way it does and I've obviously tried to understand why I'm seeing the things I have seen. Granted, my first few emails to Roush were a bit short, but I did apologize to Chris for that. It's not his fault, he just happens to be the guy on the other end of the internet.

Speaking to Greg, I noticed immediately that he had a vast understanding of tuning, but it appears that he might be new to this PCM and might not be up to speed yet. There are so many cars, each having a different platform, different software packages for dealing with them, and entirely different methodologies when it comes to the structure of the hardware and software. I can appreciate that. Let's just say that I expected more from Roush. They are tied at the hips to Ford. They work side-by-side with Ford's engineers and calibration specialists.

The man who cultured my interests in cars had a very good relationship with the folks at Roush back in the late 80's and early 90's. He was a powertrain engineer for Ford and brought the CDW27 platform to the U.S. (Contour, Cougar). I felt that I was in good hands when purchasing their product. The company was founded by an engineer, they are known for their engineering, they are a very reputable name in the aftermarket as well as an OEM supplier to Ford.

If any of you would like to see the logfile, I'd be happy to send it. I feel my frustration with the entire situation is entirely justified.


Now, does anyone else feel like calling me out? I didn't come here to make enemies. Hell, I didn't even post. A friend of mine did, looking for an answer. I only initially chimed in to provide more information.

 

[RJ13GT]

Just trade for a Hellcat. You should have no issues with that car.

 

[roushed50]

Sometimes I think it's teenagers that post on this forum

 

[roushed50]

I actually like that Hellcat one nice technology package. Forged motor. I wish Ford had some of them options they always seem to be behind

 

[cheeseclock]

I actually like that Hellcat one nice technology package. Forged motor. I wish Ford had some of them options they always seem to be behind

I don't think they're necessarily behind. I think the engineers are restrained by the bean counters, just like in every industry. Sometimes, the engineers are allowed to run feral. That's when you get interesting things like BMW's original M-Coupe. That's why we had piston oil squirters at first. Other times, the accountants get their way. The S197 was supposed to have IRS way back in 2005.

I think the Hellcat is a wonderful exercise in BFI (brute force and ignorance). It's akin to Mercedes "velvet hammer", but with a little less velvet. My only real gripe is that they didn't also package the Hellcat in 300 trim. That would be hilarious...

 

[5lho]

They do make a Hellcat Charger....

Gotta look at the price difference. You can't do a built motor with forged everything on the low buck entry price of the 5.0. The Hellcat is crazy expensive and you get what you pay for.

 

[roushed50]

I hear ya I think the hellcat is best bang for the buck if you can get one at sticker. they definitely let the gearheads build that car.

 

[roushed50]

Oh by the way I ****ing hate bean counters.

 

[cheeseclock]

They do make a Hellcat Charger....

Gotta look at the price difference. You can't do a built motor with forged everything on the low buck entry price of the 5.0. The Hellcat is crazy expensive and you get what you pay for.

I don't like the Charger quite as much as the 300...

I'll agree with you in principle. Tell me though, how much do you suppose the difference in price per car would be to have used stronger connecting rods. PM rods can be quite strong with the correct design. Look at the Boss 302 rods. The 2015 has stronger PM rods stock. By the way, I just checked and the Hellcat also uses PM rods. As far as I am aware, the only real weak links in the 5 liter are the connecting rods and sometimes the oil pump gears (although I don't have a full understanding of why those break, but harmonics have been suggested). I do wires, not metallurgy, but have discussed powdered metal at length with two engineer friends of mine. One is a powertrain engineer, the other a welding engineer. What I have posted about PM rods is their consensus. With a powdered metal rod, you're apparently relying on the "skin" of the rod. That's why they're also sometimes called forged powdered metal rods. They are forged. https://www.mpif.org/designcenter/powder_forge.asp?linkid=43 There's nothing terribly wrong with modern hypereutic pistons either. They're not noisy when cold, are claimed to give better fuel economy, and wear less.

 

[roushed50]

That's very interesting. I know for the 15 they change piston material and I think oil ring location. I wish they had better performance options for the automatic seems like everyone else does Corvette, Camaro, Dodge etc and why can't Ford have nice brakes all the way around.

 

[corepwn]

I think the factory auto is quite stout in these cars. Living at 800-1100rwhp and taking the abuse is more than a lot of even aftermarket transmissions can take.

 

[cheeseclock]

That's very interesting. I know for the 15 they change piston material and I think oil ring location. I wish they had better performance options for the automatic seems like everyone else does Corvette, Camaro, Dodge etc and why can't Ford have nice brakes all the way around.

There's a magical region in aluminum silicon content that keeps the material from expanding too much under heat (16-19%). I'm sure whatever change they made was very slight. I don't know much about the automatic trans, other than the fact that as corepwn eluded, they take a metric shit ton of abuse. The move to more gears is an effort to increase fuel economy, but if the transmission shifts fast enough, it can also keep you in the rev range to make power without any penalty. I don't know if it's still the case, but there used to be enough slip in a torque converter to lessen some of the drivetrain shock too. I'm not sure when the converter locks up on these cars or if it does at all at WOT.

The 2015 has nice brakes as an option. 15" rotors and 6 piston Brembos up front, but for some reason they still think single piston rears are sufficient. In a live axle car, this isn't as much of an issue because you're driving the front of the car and the back end is just along for the ride. I think it's a little different in an IRS car though. The back of the thing is a lot more dynamic.