S&P Lowers Ratings for Ford, Ford Credit

[One Fast Cobra]

S&P Lowers Ratings for Ford, Ford Credit
By DEE-ANN DURBIN, AP Auto Writer
2 hours ago

DETROIT - Standard & Poor's lowered Ford Motor Co.'s corporate credit rating further into junk territory Thursday, citing concerns about the company's ability to turn around its North American operations.

S&P also downgraded Ford's financial arm, Ford Motor Credit Co. The agency cut the ratings for both two levels to BB- and assigned the automaker a negative outlook.

S&P first lowered Ford into non-investment grade status last year; the latest move will make it even harder for Ford and Ford Credit to borrow money.

Ford spokeswoman Becky Sanch said the company doesn't comment on ratings actions.

"We remain committed to accelerating our business plans," Sanch said.

The No. 2 U.S. automaker lost $284 million worldwide and $1.2 billion in North America in the third quarter. It is ceding U.S. market share to Asian rivals such as Toyota Motor Corp. at the same time that its health care and labor costs have been rising.

S&P said weakened sales of mid-size and large sport utility vehicles has particularly hurt Ford, which depended on those products more heavily than other automakers.

"With the SUV demand having plummeted industrywide, particularly during the second half of 2005, it is now dubious whether even additional new models can be counted on to help restore the company's North American operations to profitability," S&P said.

Ford is expected to announce job cuts and plant closures when it reports its fourth-quarter earnings on Jan. 23. It will be the company's second major restructuring plan in four years.

S&P said the plan will be expensive and warned that it could be undermined if Ford's market share losses continue and the company resorts to costly incentives. S&P said it will take Ford several years _ at best _ to turn around its North American automotive business.

S&P said it was encouraged by a recent deal between Ford and the United Auto Workers that will save the company money on health care. But it said the agreement, which is similar to one at General Motors Corp., only partly addresses the company's competitive disadvantage.

"It remains to be seen whether Ford will be able to garner meaningful concessions in the crucial fall 2007 labor negotiations," S&P said.

S&P said Ford's consolidated debt totals $141.7 billion and the company has $19.6 billion in cash.

Ford shares were up 19 cents to $8.20 in afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

 

[stangd1909]

Ya they are going down hill........its a shame!

 

[Steeltwo]

Ya they are going down hill........its a shame!

alot of it depends on how well the fusion and 500 sell.

what is odd, is that ford had the best selling car in the foci and truck for a few years, yet they are still in the crapper.

 

[bchisom99]

alot of it depends on how well the fusion and 500 sell.

what is odd, is that ford had the best selling car in the foci and truck for a few years, yet they are still in the crapper.

Ford is in the money making busniess and they are not very good at it right now. . .

 

[Matt94GT]

doin good up here in canada. dogsleds are still #1 though.

 

[One Fast Cobra]

Its a shame... Both GM and Ford counted on money from their SUV and Truck sales to keep them solvent, but didn't think about the price of fuel continuing on its upward journey... In 2006 the predicted average price of oil is $68.80 per barrel... So now the big items are hybrids and CUVs or otherwise known as cross over vehicles. Its time that GM and Ford delivered on the Hydrogen (H2) & Fuel Cell vehicles before Japan or some other country beats them to it.

This is a country of consumers and the average person will buy the product that most suits their budget, loyalty to national made products set aside... Specially when major U.S. corporations aren't showing any national loyalty by outsorcing jobs to foreign countries such as India and China for the sake of increasing profits. Then again this is a capitalist society and there are no boundries or loyalties when looking to increase revenues. Of course there are the exeptions and I don't mean the Wallmarts :coolman:

 

[tvguy]

Its a shame... Both GM and Ford counted on money from their SUV and Truck sales to keep them solvent, but didn't think about the price of fuel continuing on its upward journey... In 2006 the predicted average price of oil is $68.80 per barrel... So now the big items are hybrids and CUVs or otherwise known as cross over vehicles. Its time that GM and Ford delivered on the Hydrogen (H2) vehicles before Japan or some other country beats them to it.

This is a country of consumers and the average person will buy the product that most suits their budget, loyalty to national made products set aside... Specially when major U.S. corporations aren't showing any national loyalty by outsorcing jobs to foreign countries such as India and China for the sake of increasing profits. Then again this is a capitalist society and there are no boundries or loyalties when looking to increase revenues. Then of course there are the exeptions.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket. SUV's are dead in the water right now. Both Ford and GM lived and died by the all mighty SUV. I remember a time when they were loving life by all the sales. It was non stop news how fast they were selling. And now their other vehicle sales can't help them out. Tough shit I say. Build better or go under. And I don't want to hear about American's "loyalty". How bout American car makers "loyalty" to Americans and producing better cars? How bout the union employees quit ****ing the car companies with their high demands, especially health care? I'm tired of the boo hoo with Ford and GM. Get your shit together and quit crying. Or start applying to Toyota and Honda.
pacotaco

 

[One Fast Cobra]

Hey Pacotaco you should read the entire piece before you jump out with your orchestra and start talking nonsense... I agree with the fact that the strong survive and weak lay down and die... The game is not over until the fat person sings...
Paco sit on your Taco.

 

[tvguy]

Hey Pacotaco you should read the entire piece before you jump out with your orchestra and start talking nonsense... I agree with the fact that the strong survive and weak lay down and die... The game is not over until the fat person sings...
Paco sit on your Taco.

Actually is was to your comments about "loyalty" and American consumers. Or as you put it "the average person will buy the product that most suits their budget, loyalty to national made products set aside." In addition to some other threads about US car makers as of late. And I'm not spewing nonsense. We both agree about the SUV's. Again I clearly remember reports of how "fast" SUV's were selling. I just expanded about their other vehicles not picking up the slack. Which they haven't. My comments about the union members are 100% true as well. No orchestra here. Just reality.
pacotaco

 

[slick0478]

Actually is was to your comments about "loyalty" and American consumers. Or as you put it "the average person will buy the product that most suits their budget, loyalty to national made products set aside." In addition to some other threads about US car makers as of late. And I'm not spewing nonsense. We both agree about the SUV's. Again I clearly remember reports of how "fast" SUV's were selling. I just expanded about their other vehicles not picking up the slack. Which they haven't. My comments about the union members are 100% true as well. No orchestra here. Just reality.
pacotaco

Well I see it different...
1st prob is they make way to many cars all foreign cars you buy off the lot or wait along time if you order nothing sitting there rotting and losing money like Chevy+Ford do by the end of the year
SUV's arent dead just a slow down due to fuel once eveyone gets used to the cost they will sell again also nobody wanted a 05-06 when all new Tahoes,Escalades,Explorers & Expeditions are due out mid year, plus interest rates are killing sales everyone got used to 0% not 7%

Lastely the Unions I take this to heart because I am a Union man, You could not be any more incorrect in saying they should take a step aside when it comes to health care. The car companies didnt anticipate the cost of healthcare just profit it is not the current worker it is the retiries that cost billions should they just tell every old timer that worked in sweatshop conditions when there were no robots to build cars that they have no more health care jsut eat dog food and die in some hole somewhere.(is this the answer)
Or we will let them just turn into Walmart and screw every employee and give them a crappy wage and NO health care and let them drain the system and YOU PAY FOR IT ANYWAY WHEN THE GO ON STATE MEDICAL PROGRAMS, But you'lll get a bottle of Tide for 60cents cheaper is it really worth it?
I am not saying there can't be a happy medium but to give up something so big would hurt every worker in America union or not coorperate greed is why healthcare is so much not the workers defending there jobs and all that goes with them.
I also bet if your job told you tomorrow you had to pay 50% more for medical you would not be happy reguardless of what you make, So get over the fact of blaming people (union) on the downfall of fortune 500 companies Enron didn't go bust because of a Union it was coorperate greed just like so many other companies, I really am dreading the day all of these people retire now with no pensions or medical there will be complete chaos in this country in a few years and who is really to blame?

Slick

 

[tvguy]

Well I see it different...
1st prob is they make way to many cars all foreign cars you buy off the lot or wait along time if you order nothing sitting there rotting and losing money like Chevy+Ford do by the end of the year
SUV's arent dead just a slow down due to fuel once eveyone gets used to the cost they will sell again also nobody wanted a 05-06 when all new Tahoes,Escalades,Explorers & Expeditions are due out mid year, plus interest rates are killing sales everyone got used to 0% not 7%

Lastely the Unions I take this to heart because I am a Union man, You could not be any more incorrect in saying they should take a step aside when it comes to health care. The car companies didnt anticipate the cost of healthcare just profit it is not the current worker it is the retiries that cost billions should they just tell every old timer that worked in sweatshop conditions when there were no robots to build cars that they have no more health care jsut eat dog food and die in some hole somewhere.(is this the answer)
Or we will let them just turn into Walmart and screw every employee and give them a crappy wage and NO health care and let them drain the system and YOU PAY FOR IT ANYWAY WHEN THE GO ON STATE MEDICAL PROGRAMS, But you'lll get a bottle of Tide for 60cents cheaper is it really worth it?
I am not saying there can't be a happy medium but to give up something so big would hurt every worker in America union or not coorperate greed is why healthcare is so much not the workers defending there jobs and all that goes with them.
I also bet if your job told you tomorrow you had to pay 50% more for medical you would not be happy reguardless of what you make, So get over the fact of blaming people (union) on the downfall of fortune 500 companies Enron didn't go bust because of a Union it was coorperate greed just like so many other companies, I really am dreading the day all of these people retire now with no pensions or medical there will be complete chaos in this country in a few years and who is really to blame?

Slick

IF you work for a major American car company, what do you pay for healthcare? I bet little to none. While most of America pays a small car payment a month. Who do you think sucks up that large cost?? You get a pension. Most of America has no idea of what a pension is. The pension days are long gone for most of this country. For those retiring soon, maybe they should have started an individual IRA plan and saved like everyone else. It's a cold day in hell before I feel sorry for any US union auto worker. Current or retired. And whatever "problems" GM and Ford have, again either fix them or go under. They can start with the current union contracts and then go to building better vehicles that people actually want. I truly hope the government doesn't bail them out if it ever comes to that. Neither company deserves it.
pacotaco

 

[NiteMareGT]

Well I see it different...
1st prob is they make way to many cars all foreign cars you buy off the lot or wait along time if you order nothing sitting there rotting and losing money like Chevy+Ford do by the end of the year
SUV's arent dead just a slow down due to fuel once eveyone gets used to the cost they will sell again also nobody wanted a 05-06 when all new Tahoes,Escalades,Explorers & Expeditions are due out mid year, plus interest rates are killing sales everyone got used to 0% not 7%

Lastely the Unions I take this to heart because I am a Union man, You could not be any more incorrect in saying they should take a step aside when it comes to health care. The car companies didnt anticipate the cost of healthcare just profit it is not the current worker it is the retiries that cost billions should they just tell every old timer that worked in sweatshop conditions when there were no robots to build cars that they have no more health care jsut eat dog food and die in some hole somewhere.(is this the answer)
Or we will let them just turn into Walmart and screw every employee and give them a crappy wage and NO health care and let them drain the system and YOU PAY FOR IT ANYWAY WHEN THE GO ON STATE MEDICAL PROGRAMS, But you'lll get a bottle of Tide for 60cents cheaper is it really worth it?
I am not saying there can't be a happy medium but to give up something so big would hurt every worker in America union or not coorperate greed is why healthcare is so much not the workers defending there jobs and all that goes with them.
I also bet if your job told you tomorrow you had to pay 50% more for medical you would not be happy reguardless of what you make, So get over the fact of blaming people (union) on the downfall of fortune 500 companies Enron didn't go bust because of a Union it was coorperate greed just like so many other companies, I really am dreading the day all of these people retire now with no pensions or medical there will be complete chaos in this country in a few years and who is really to blame?

Slick

No, you couldn't be anymore incorrect my friend. Unions are bad, that's right, BAD. They drain American industry and leech the surplus capital dry. I worked for a unionized textile company for 17 years, and let me tell ya, it ultimately closed the company because the organization couldn't weather foriegn markets and the high cost of maintaining healthcare, benifits, pensions, paid holidays, paid vacations, and all the other fritz that we as Americans have become spoiled with. For a company to survive, it has to be profitable, and if it can't, it will go under. So, if my "job" as you say it told me that they would have to net me a 50% increase in healthcare responsibility, I would say great, because I still have my job. Retirement and pension is ultimately the individuals responsibility. If you are determined to rely on circa $1000 - $1500 a month when you retire through retirement and or pension, then you've made a nasty bed to lay in.

 

[slick0478]

IF you work for a major American car company, what do you pay for healthcare? I bet little to none. While most of America pays a small car payment a month. Who do you think sucks up that large cost?? You get a pension. Most of America has no idea of what a pension is. The pension days are long gone for most of this country. For those retiring soon, maybe they should have started an individual IRA plan and saved like everyone else. It's a cold day in hell before I feel sorry for any US union auto worker. Current or retired. And whatever "problems" GM and Ford have, again either fix them or go under. They can start with the current union contracts and then go to building better vehicles that people actually want. I truly hope the government doesn't bail them out if it ever comes to that. Neither company deserves it.
pacotaco

No I do not work for the UAW I work for a Utility Co. I pay just about $85 a week for a PPO medical plan wich is not too good (10yrs ago I paid nothing with better coverage) % wise it is about 20% of my base pay that is too much with 30% increases in the past few years any raise we got was absorbed by cost of medical is this fare?
Yes most might not know what a pension is but thats is no reason to not have them and there are pleanty of pensions out there at least on east coast I am in NJ everyone I know that is not civil service has one as of now.
I too could care less about the 2 car companies but I hate when the blame goes to the Union workers (example did the design the recent part that had to be recalled and cost billions NO) but nobody sees THIS and who is held accountable and all of the multimillion dollar salaries and bonuses for running a company and AMERICAN fixture into the ground.
The goverment would have to help in someway it would cause a major problem that would cost the gov and citizens even more if all of them were out of work plus the loss of tax income for unlce sam they did it for Chrysler/Dodge years ago I don't think it is that bad yet
last do you really think if the UAW said tomorrow they would pay for full medical that the big 2 would lower the price of cars......Nope they would count the coin and keep ruining the company and linning their pockets

Slick

 

[slick0478]

No, you couldn't be anymore incorrect my friend. Unions are bad, that's right, BAD. They drain American industry and leech the surplus capital dry. I worked for a unionized textile company for 17 years, and let me tell ya, it ultimately closed the company because the organization couldn't weather foriegn markets and the high cost of maintaining healthcare, benifits, pensions, paid holidays, paid vacations, and all the other fritz that we as Americans have become spoiled with. For a company to survive, it has to be profitable, and if it can't, it will go under. So, if my "job" as you say it told me that they would have to net me a 50% increase in healthcare responsibility, I would say great, because I still have my job. Retirement and pension is ultimately the individuals responsibility. If you are determined to rely on circa $1000 - $1500 a month when you retire through retirement and or pension, then you've made a nasty bed to lay in.

Well first off it must have been a real bad 17 YEARS why didn't you leave sooner go get a better job where you pay for medical and do your part for society for all of us. As for foreign markets we shouldn't let them influence the american worker in the USA of A we are all free no 10 year olds working 20hrs for a cup of rice and all messed up crap like that...Also I bet you love calling Pakistan for all your computer needs this is why this country is in bad shape close it all down support ourselves and make others pay not our own people.
As for you being happy about a 50% INCREASE and still having your job--- BS I call you would be crying the blues and with no protection just a last pay check. T
his country was built by unions and they help all other americans with there continous voice to stop coorperate greed and the downfall of the middle class in this country if they had it there way it would be the Rich and the Poor and there not to far off my friend...I hope you are in the Rich catagory
I don't want to get started everyone is intitilled to their opinion but a deep look would turn up Union's don't cost this country as much as coorperate greed and corrupt polotician skeems---A hard working citizen like me and you will get next to nothing for SS when we our old and grey and after( paying a lifetime of taxes) We will get medicare and die in some god forsaken place most likely, but One term on captial hill for Senators ect they get free medical for there families for LIFE and there full salaries......and Unions are corrupt


Lastly Unions weren't formed because companies treated workers fairly yes it was worse years ago...But as they say "The more things change the more they stay the same" Unions just force a commitment to a company not just what the fell like doing that day...
Slick

 

[slick0478]

One more thing Nitemaregt what about all of those people who do rely on the 1000-1500 and had no idea of what retirement would cost?
or they were only paid 30k a year how can someone save on wages like this? Even if they do what will they have? Cant say Social Security thats as good as gone
So where do these people go (most of America) or where will we be as a country when this happends can't blame healthcare for everything or Bad weather ect ect
bottom line is peolple like $$$$ those who have it want more those who dont want more there is no end......
It will always be something and somone or something to blame today it is a Union tomorrow a hurricane for $3 gal for gas wich is all BS there is pleanty to go around but the the GREEDY don't like to share.....

Slick

 

[NiteMareGT]

Well, first of all, unions were great, years ago. They helped our grandfathers-mothers, father's-mother's, work in safer, fairly paid, non-sweatshop facilities, and kept businesses from working the hell out of you one day, and firing you the next. Times have changed. New legislature over the past few years has helped to govern people's rights in the workplace without the dead weight of an overdemanding and proverbial "redtaped" union. In my 18 years of manufacturing experience, I have far too many times seen the unions protect the rights of people who weren't worth a flying flock to begin with. The problem with many Americans is that they lay their heads on the union's shoulder for help when they fall short of their job description, performance expectations, and a company's attendance policies. "I want more without working for it, or saving for it!.....GIMME GIMME GIMME", is the motto of most people I know. Protect your rights and your job by performing well, and showing up to work on a regular basis. Trust me, an exceptional employee has no fear of losing his job with the competition in the manufacturing/production sector of today. NOW....I'm not saying that the pensions and retirement, and insurance benifits aren't a good thing, because they are. For instance, it's when you have sweepers or indirect department help making 18-20 bucks an hour, (as we do here in my town with a company whose name I will not say) constantly crying about how the company went up on their insurance, or they didn't get their 20% raise this year....that gets my goat. If you're making that much an hour as a floor sweeper, then you are WAAAAY OVERPAID to begin with. Then you want to fill up the local media with threats of strikes because your riase was frozen, and your insurance may go up $20 bucks a week??.....well then, I have no sympathy for you at all, and hope you're eating out of a trash can soon, because maybe then you'll see what you had to begin with.
I now work for a non-union company making corrugated packaging products, and shipping boxes. I'm a department manager, I make decent money, but I'm no-where near rich. I have the same benifits as the hourly employees with the exception of profit sharing, and my company pays my cell phone bill. This place has treated the help better, offered me more than my previous employer ever did, and it profits very well. They kick back the money they save in waste to the employees, give Christmas bonuses to employees who perform well throughout the year, and give out gift certificates to high end restaurants on good months. We never work weekends, and we pay less for our medical here than I did at my last job. (Almost 50% less.) We have 401k matched 2 to 1, and dental is free up to a $1000 ceiling per year per individual insured on your medical. I could name more, but I don't need to. Ohh, and this is all without a union.....who'duh thunk it....... :shrug:

 

[NiteMareGT]

One more thing Nitemaregt what about all of those people who do rely on the 1000-1500 and had no idea of what retirement would cost?
or they were only paid 30k a year how can someone save on wages like this? Even if they do what will they have? Cant say Social Security thats as good as gone
So where do these people go (most of America) or where will we be as a country when this happends can't blame healthcare for everything or Bad weather ect ect
bottom line is peolple like $$$$ those who have it want more those who dont want more there is no end......
It will always be something and somone or something to blame today it is a Union tomorrow a hurricane for $3 gal for gas wich is all BS there is pleanty to go around but the the GREEDY don't like to share.....

Slick

Are you trying to tell me that you can't save $10 a week? $10 a week in the average working lifetime for a person who works until they are 65 adds up to $25000 dollars. That's a good start, and a little cushion when implemented with a decent retirement, pension, and or SS. Live within your means. If it's that important to you to have a good retirement, do away with your cable bill and save that every month, or, do away with your cell phone and save that. Better yet, quit trying to pay $1000 mortgage payments on $30k a year. Ofcourse there is alot of corporate greed, I don't dispute this, but it's just one problem in a pot of horror for us Americans in the industrial sector. It's gonna get worse.

 

[LogiWorld123]

i think we need to differentiate between LABOR unions and TRADE unions.

 

[slick0478]

Are you trying to tell me that you can't save $10 a week? $10 a week in the average working lifetime for a person who works until they are 65 adds up to $25000 dollars. That's a good start, and a little cushion when implemented with a decent retirement, pension, and or SS. Live within your means. If it's that important to you to have a good retirement, do away with your cable bill and save that every month, or, do away with your cell phone and save that. Better yet, quit trying to pay $1000 mortgage payments on $30k a year. Ofcourse there is alot of corporate greed, I don't dispute this, but it's just one problem in a pot of horror for us Americans in the industrial sector. It's gonna get worse.

Yes $10 bucks a week is hard for some people and 25k aint chit when your old that could be medical bills in no time...because as you were saying they dont deserve medical ect ec. Also a 1k mortage where do you live cause I'm moving there...1k is half months rent on a 1 bedroom apartment in NJ and many other places.
I agree it is a good starting place but without PENSIONS,MEDICAL AND SS it is nothing not worth saving better off being broke and milking the system like all of Walmarts employee's are going to do.
I know there are bad employees everywhere Union and Non yes those with protection often abuse it. This is everywhere I am sure in your place of work there is a guy/gal who does little or nothing and gets everything you get wheather it be from knowing someone or just hiding in the shadows of the other workers. T
his happends more in the Union environment but most unions don't have bonuses,dinners ect ect.
Lastly these members PAY for the protection in dues some abuse it most don't but there will always be a good 10% of bad workers union or not
Slick

 

[slick0478]

i think we need to differentiate between LABOR unions and TRADE unions.

This is also very true
But all have the right to defend and try to better there jobs some just happen to take a company or two with them. I am not saying it is right but it should have never gotten to that point in the first place if the companies were being run right.
Plus the biggest thing in any UNION is no give backs...if you got it already why give back to the company it only opens the door for more and more give backs that is why so many fight(strike) to the demise of the Union or Co.
In all cases there must be some concessions but most of the time people get caught up in the moment and make hastey decisions a strike or work stoppage helps no one in the long term but that is all Unions have to protect themselves and in the public eye we are always the bad guy. It is hard to walk in someones elses(sp) shoes and the media always puts a spin on it to hurt the workers if people really knew how hard of a desicion it is to strike and not get paid and possibly loose there jobs forever, Maybe then they would understand why these people fight for certain things.

I know you werent saying anything to get the comment from me but, I relized I clicked your name and "" and I didn't want to re-type it....I am a dumb Union Guy....lol
Slick