School Me on Brakes

[invisiblefrisbe]

So, I did my first PDX this summer and wasn't able to make it to more this year, but am definitely going to make some more next year . But I'm looking at improving my brakes this winter.

---The Backstory---
Perhaps it was just my noobness and I was riding the brakes too much that first session, but at our track here in St. Louis there is a straight where I hit about 130 mph, then hard on the brakes before entering turn 1. The outside of turn 1 is an unforgiving concrete barrier. The straight is part of the oval track, so if you can't slow down enough you can blow by the cones and continue straight. I had to do this on the first session when I realized my brake pedal was on the floor and I wasn't slowing down much. I then had to explain myself to a track official.
This didn't happen the other 3 sessions perhaps because I learned as driver to ride the brakes less...but it still has me a little scared because turn 1 is the most unforgiving on the track.

---Already Done---
Stock '96 cobra calipers and rotors (no slots, holes, or dimples)
Hawk HPS pads
Brake cooling ducts from 99COBRA2881
Prestone synthetic DOT4 fluid (highest boiling point stuff I can find off the shelf at auto parts stores around here)
Steel braided Teflon coated brake lines

---What's Next?---
I have 17" Enkei RPF1 wheels that I want to keep on the car...so going to 14" brakes are out of the question. Also, I drive this car to work when it's a nice day out and also auto-x the car.
So as I do research I see the following options...but I'm not sure what order I should do them in, and what is best:
-race day pads, just swap them on before heading to the track
-2 piece rotors
-slotted/dimpled rotors
-caliper upgrade (Y2K brembro, Stoptech, Baer...not sure what is best here)

Thanks in advance for your helpful input guys!

 

[MFE]

Your biggest problem is the Hawk HPS pads. They are simply not capable of handling the heat you're generating. HPS stands for "High Performance Street". You'd be better off with HP+ pads, but you'd be better off still with any of the better options out there. I'm a big fan of Carbotech, and you'd be fine with a set of their XP10's in the front. Cobalt makes good stuff too, and there are other options if you can sift through the mY pAdS aRe ThE bEsTeSt crap. But job number one is putting some higher-capacity pads on it for your next outing. You don't need to be the next guy in a line of hundreds who have spent thousands of dollars on high-buck rotors and calipers and all they really needed was $200 worth of pads. Do that first, then consider what else you need. As far as that goes, I'd spring for better calipers before I'd waste money on dots and slots in the rotors.

Also...and this is critical...the factory Cobra front brake lines have been known to melt and fail during high-heat track usage, with fatal consequences. Upgrade to braided stainless lines if you haven't already.



.

 

[NGO]

The day I spent at Sebring a couple weeks ago (didn't bring my car) told me that horse power is not as necessary as good brakes and tires are!!!

I have a 2003 Cobra with about 22,000 miles. Do I have to have the rotors turned prior to putting on the new Hawks pads? The pads are factory stock original and currently do not have any braking problems (on the street anyway).Thanks.

 

[invisiblefrisbe]

Your biggest problem is the Hawk HPS pads. They are simply not capable of handling the heat you're generating. HPS stands for "High Performance Street". You'd be better off with HP+ pads, but you'd be better off still with any of the better options out there. I'm a big fan of Carbotech, and you'd be fine with a set of their XP10's in the front. Cobalt makes good stuff too, and there are other options if you can sift through the mY pAdS aRe ThE bEsTeSt crap. But job number one is putting some higher-capacity pads on it for your next outing. You don't need to be the next guy in a line of hundreds who have spent thousands of dollars on high-buck rotors and calipers and all they really needed was $200 worth of pads. Do that first, then consider what else you need. As far as that goes, I'd spring for better calipers before I'd waste money on dots and slots in the rotors.

Also...and this is critical...the factory Cobra front brake lines have been known to melt and fail during high-heat track usage, with fatal consequences. Upgrade to braided stainless lines if you haven't already.

I edited my first post...I do have braided lines on all 4 corners.

As far an HP+ or XP10 go, are these a track day only pad because they require too much heat to be good for street use (especially at highway speeds with cooling ducts), or for auto-x use?

 

[brkntrxn]

Carbotech XP10s can be used on the street, but they will get noisy and dust quite a bit since you will be operating under their temperature range. If you just slap them in to drive back and forth to the track, you are ok. I used to street drive my Cobra on XP12/XP10s all the time, but I could tolerate the noise. They will still have good bite at lower operating temps, just not as good as once they are up to temps.

From what I see in your post and your signature, you *should* be fine with just getting better pads as MFE commented. I ran a supercharged 99 Cobra on XP12/XP10s and factory brake calipers for years with very little issue. Learn to brake deep and hard and not long and lean. Anthony's ducts coupled with fresh fluid and good pads should be all you need until you start pushing the car harder and harder.

 

[MFE]

XP10's can be run on the street, but they're dusty and noisy, and that's expensive dust. They're also a league ahead of HP+ in performance. HP+ also dusty and noisy on the street, except lot of the dust with HP+ on the street comes from them being abrasive on the rotors when cold, so that's also expensive dust.

The pads are easy enough to change out that you should get some good, no-compromises pads for the track and just switch them out before leaving for the track day. I run HPS front and rear on the street, and I swap the fronts out for the track and leave the HPS on the rear.

 

[invisiblefrisbe]

visiting their website: Carbotech Performance Brakes
If I'm only putting these on to drive to the track and back, is there any reason not to run XP20? They look like they'll be easier on my rotors and be more tolerant of higher temperatures.

 

[nekasrof]

Better brakes will be a huge improvement. If you're planning to do more track days/competition, you'd be better served to change to at least the R brakes. The calipers will use more of the rotor. See the below picture and then go and compare to what your pads are using:

Look at how much more rotor is being used than the PBRs. You'll notice that there is not an unused ring of rotor surface. Also, I hope you've bled your brakes after that track day.

PBR calipers are known to open like a clamshell with the heat.

 

[SVT_Troy]

Better brakes will be a huge improvement. If you're planning to do more track days/competition, you'd be better served to change to at least the R brakes. The calipers will use more of the rotor. See the below picture and then go and compare to what your pads are using:

Look at how much more rotor is being used than the PBRs. You'll notice that there is not an unused ring of rotor surface. Also, I hope you've bled your brakes after that track day.

PBR calipers are known to open like a clamshell with the heat.

Do the Cobra R's fit under all 17's?

 

[WutApex]

FYI, Motul 600 brake fluid can usually be found in any motorcycle shop.....it's not the cheapest but it's really good stuff.

I'm fairly new to OT events too...running Motul 600, brake ducts and Hawk Blues and have not had any issues (same as you described) since. I'll be trying Carbotech xp10 or 12s next

 

[nekasrof]

I used the Hawk Blues when I had the factory brakes and loved them. They stopped REALLY well but now that I've gone to the R brakes, I use less rotor and less pad. Cooling ducts are a must though.

As far as, do they clear all the 17" wheels? I don't know. You'll have to check dimensions of wheels being used. I using a set of 95 cobra r's in 17x10.5s all around and they clear with no problem. Those are the wheels in the picture above.

 

[MFE]

visiting their website: Carbotech Performance Brakes
If I'm only putting these on to drive to the track and back, is there any reason not to run XP20? They look like they'll be easier on my rotors and be more tolerant of higher temperatures.

They're $50 more per set?

 

[TXPD]

brakes...go all out if you can. thats where your confidence lives on a road course. braking first and then cornering. a guy that can stop and turn can run all over a guy with twice the hp.

get good brakes. slotted rotors. cross drilled is not for the track. race pads for the track. pfc01 or 06 compound. motul or srf fluid. air to the brakes is a must on these mustangs.

 

[invisiblefrisbe]

So most of the discussion has been about front brakes so far. What about the rears? Some reading in some other discussions suggested that the rear brakes might be too small and under utilized on the sn95 platform. Does this mean that going to a bigger brake in the back will help stop me faster and keep the fronts from fading?

 

[brkntrxn]

Not necessarily. A brake system is designed to be balanced for the front-rear weight ratios and the amount of braking needed. Slapping on a larger setup on the rear can have bad side effects of the rears locking prematurely and other bad issues.

 

[invisiblefrisbe]

Not necessarily. A brake system is designed to be balanced for the front-rear weight ratios and the amount of braking needed. Slapping on a larger setup on the rear can have bad side effects of the rears locking prematurely and other bad issues.

Yeah, I understand that, but I'm curious if the sn95 cars could stand to have more brake out back before locking up the rears occurs.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...795017-heavily-front-brake-biased-so-why.html

 

[TXPD]

messing with your rear brakes at all is issue #73 and you are on issue #3 getting your basic brake situation set up.

i race on stock mustang gt rear brakes. i believe they are the same as on the sn95. same caliper and same rotor.

ive discussed with our gooooooroooooo bruce about putting his 13" rear brake kit on the car. you will want to think about a two piece front brake kit long before you start thinking about a bigger rear brake deal. one step at a time, grasshopper

 

[SVT_Troy]

brakes...go all out if you can. thats where your confidence lives on a road course. braking first and then cornering. a guy that can stop and turn can run all over a guy with twice the hp.

get good brakes. slotted rotors. cross drilled is not for the track. race pads for the track. pfc01 or 06 compound. motul or srf fluid. air to the brakes is a must on these mustangs.

It's known we need them but were can us S95 guys get the most bang for our buck when it comes to brake ducts? All the ones ever mentioned here blows air partially on the rotor surface. Bruce doesn't make one for us like the newer mustangs. Fully functional ducts for ours are customs made....

 

[invisiblefrisbe]

messing with your rear brakes at all is issue #73 and you are on issue #3 getting your basic brake situation set up.

i race on stock mustang gt rear brakes. i believe they are the same as on the sn95. same caliper and same rotor.

ive discussed with our gooooooroooooo bruce about putting his 13" rear brake kit on the car. you will want to think about a two piece front brake kit long before you start thinking about a bigger rear brake deal. one step at a time, grasshopper

You guys are so helpful! Thanks for all the input so far.

Just to clarify, does this mean I shouldn't even worry about putting better pads out back? Or I should worry about the back in the sense that I should put the same pads on all four corners so the backs have the same compound as the front?

 

[nekasrof]

Sorry to be a contrarian here but I run Cobra R front pads and Hawk Blues in the rear. I think the braking is better with that combo for my hillclimbing. When timed correctly, you can really initiate a nice rotation into a corner. So I believe you can bias a bit with pads. I wouldn't go crazy though and if you're new to this type of driving, I'd wait and get used to a matched set first. I'm 6 years into this type of racing.