Suggestions? 4V build, 450-500HP & reliable

[poniesviii]

Hello all.

I have a goal of a reliable 450-500whp.
Reliability always being first priority no matter what. Cost second. I would like to use common parts, or parts that keep costs down.
In just reading here, it's hard to really find the info I'm looking for, since most are building off what they already have. So naturally, choices that are most effective for them probably aren't for me since I'm starting with an early Teksid block, out of my Lincoln, and for my Lincoln. So I'm really starting from scratch. The car will be running a T56 or 6060 so drivetrain loss won't be so bad.

I would like suggestions on what parts I should be collecting.

I don't want high dollar parts if I don't need them.

As far as rotating assy and being cost effective, should I scout a Cobra crank, and termi rods, then purchase the rest new? Or should I be looking at a rot assy kit? If so, What are my best options? I don't need overkill, if I do by chance go over 500 whp that's ok, but I want reliability, and 450whp would be just fine.. I just don't want to hate my car when I'm done because I have to fix it all the damn time.

If I go with an eaton, I assume I need lower intake and heads etc off a termi..
OR..
If I choose to go with a KB or Whipple, as far as cost effectiveness is concerned, should I be purchasing a kit for a different head than the termi? (which is a C head, right?)

Any ideas and opinions are welcome.. I'm starting a new job soon and have wanted to do a build up in this car for quite some time.

I appreciate your input!

Chris

PS- Can I get away with high (10:1) compression with boost and still run pump gas (91 octant)?

 

[01yellercobra]

What year is this going into? Since you're not looking for anything over the top I would source a stock Cobra crank and termi rods. Have an aluminum block bored .020" over and use a good piston. I have Diamond pistons in my motor. The stock C heads and cams can make 500hp no problem. Are you set on the roots blower or are you willing to look into centrifugals?

The termi used an upgrade version of the C head. 99/01 used the same style. I've been told once they're ported there is no difference.

You can probably get away with 10:1 on 91, but I wouldn't do it. I'd go a little lower just to be on the safe side. I had my motor built with 9:1 for this reason.

 

[poniesviii]

'96, OBDII..

I'm open minded on blower options, but I would like low end torque. To my understanding that pretty much limits me to either a Roots or Twinscrew right?

 

[poniesviii]

Ok, after doing some reading I definately want a roots or twinscrew.

Still have a valid post though,

Looking for the most cost effective pieces, mainly. I wish I was like most, already sitting with a factory shortblock that's good for what I want. But I don't, and I don't know things such as..

Do I need termi heads in order to stay away from purchasing a head rebuild (cams)?
And is that irrelevant since I may want a port job?
If I do want a port job, where is a good place? And what cams should I be looking at installing?

What years can I get away with stealing a forged crank from?

" " " Fuel rails?

How much is too much to pay for termi rods?

Should I pick up a termi lower intake (if I can even find one), or is there a better aftermarket one for cheaper?

Am I going to be happy with a ported eaton @ 500whp?

What am I not thinking about?

 

[poniesviii]

Ok,

teksid bored .20, using top plate;

99-01 or 03-04 forged crank.

Termi rods.

Diamond pistons? Do I really need the hard pistons for what I'm looking for??

I may as well go with a 2.3 whipple from tousley.

heads??

I know this stuff is kinda boring guys, but I'm trying here, and would really appreciate your input.

 

[Khobra97]

I think you may have "B" heads, so getting a whipple or kenne bell probably isnt very cost effective. The head/blower swap can get pretty pricey.

If you are wanting to go that route maybe a termi swap with tranny may be best, they run for about 7500-10000 with motor,trans and wiring harness.

 

[poniesviii]

I think you may have "B" heads, so getting a whipple or kenne bell probably isnt very cost effective. The head/blower swap can get pretty pricey.

If you are wanting to go that route maybe a termi swap with tranny may be best, they run for about 7500-10000 with motor,trans and wiring harness.

Wowza. Yes, I have B heads.

Going to have to think about this.

I don't want to end up with a used motor. Thanks for your input, I was vaguely thinking that getting ahold of C heads may be a problem.

 

[poniesviii]

What all cars did ford produce with C heads?

 

[poniesviii]

Nevermind, found the C head info..

Nice Termi motor w mods inclu everything down to the ECU and T-56 on ebay, 6,500 for the pair which I could justify being since I still need a trans. Would really prefer the 6060 though. Wish I was ready for this, as right now I'm trying to collect information for a buildup this summer and don't have the funds right now.

 

[Wildcard]

10:1 with boost you'll be fine on 91 octane. I do it everyday.

 

[poniesviii]

Thank you for your input!


So I think I'll be purchasing a new whipple 2.3. It's probably just going to end up that way so I might as well plan for it.

I can find 99-01 heads and don't have a problem with having them worked, couple grand, but piece of mind and I'll have my choice at cams.

So my next question is if the whipple kit comes with a lower plenum?

If I build my block up with C heads and purchase a whipple 2.3 kit, what else am I going to need to get this whipple on??

 

[SpdPilot]

You have had the same goal that I have finally reached. I learned the hard way.

Although the Teksid block is one of the strongest, there is no need at your power level and there are risks with having it sleeved.

Engine builders. There are many and ALL of them have some failures at some point. They all have their own experiences on diff parts. And if you call around and spend some time talking with them, each will convince you of something different. Your head will spin. Build times are terrible, etc.

I also went the Kenne Bell route and learned that the HorsePower blower manufacturers make you believe is just bolt on away, are not always as easy to achieve as they claim.

I would HIGHLY recommend buying the Ford Racing Aluminator long block and being done with it. It has proven to be very reliable and more consistent in the build then any customer build. Yes there are failures, but do a search, there are NOT many beyond the initial problem they had when they first came out, which has long since been resolved.

Top end, I would go with a Whipple 03-04 Cobra setup. Just make sure you go intercooled. Despite what the blower manufacturers say what stock parts you can get away with, I can tell you to save your self some time and go with the following parts in the beginning if you really want to hit 500rwhp safely.

42 inj (or greater)
90mm lightning mass air
Accufab TB
JLT intake
upgraded fuel pump
Kenne Bell Boost a Pump (BAP)
upgraded IC coolant tank
upgraded heat exchanger

This is the recipe that every ends up with and you can play in the 500-600rwhp for thousands of miles. If you want to play in the 650+rwhp game, then yes, custom build the Teksid blocked engine.

I tried to be different and ultimately, this is where I ended up anyways after a lot of wasted time and money.

 

[SpittingCobra]

dude if you want to run a roots/ts blower forget about your current motor. If you want one you gotta swap the whole top end, the timing cover, relocate the alternator, get the intercooled manifold, mount the heat exchanger, etc. etc. etc.

The parts list is a mile long. You're better off getting the entire engine you listed along with a new blower.

Or you could just build it and use a centrifugal. Mine has plenty of torque with 4:10 gears and I drive it every day with 500hp 450tq and I haven't even built the motor yet. 500hp at the wheels is difficult to wrangle. A linear power curve is not necessarily a bad thing on the street..:burnout:

 

[stanzione88]

i think youre better off buying a running 4v motor with a eaton on top, motor will handle way over above 500whp and will be easy to make with the eaton + boltons.

 

[poniesviii]

Thanks guys! ..........

You have had the same goal that I have finally reached. I learned the hard way.

Although the Teksid block is one of the strongest, there is no need at your power level and there are risks with having it sleeved.

Engine builders. There are many and ALL of them have some failures at some point. They all have their own experiences on diff parts. And if you call around and spend some time talking with them, each will convince you of something different. Your head will spin. Build times are terrible, etc.

I also went the Kenne Bell route and learned that the HorsePower blower manufacturers make you believe is just bolt on away, are not always as easy to achieve as they claim.

I would HIGHLY recommend buying the Ford Racing Aluminator long block and being done with it. It has proven to be very reliable and more consistent in the build then any customer build. Yes there are failures, but do a search, there are NOT many beyond the initial problem they had when they first came out, which has long since been resolved.

Top end, I would go with a Whipple 03-04 Cobra setup. Just make sure you go intercooled. Despite what the blower manufacturers say what stock parts you can get away with, I can tell you to save your self some time and go with the following parts in the beginning if you really want to hit 500rwhp safely.

42 inj (or greater)
90mm lightning mass air
Accufab TB
JLT intake
upgraded fuel pump
Kenne Bell Boost a Pump (BAP)
upgraded IC coolant tank
upgraded heat exchanger

This is the recipe that every ends up with and you can play in the 500-600rwhp for thousands of miles. If you want to play in the 650+rwhp game, then yes, custom build the Teksid blocked engine.

I tried to be different and ultimately, this is where I ended up anyways after a lot of wasted time and money.

I really need to research the parts you're speaking of. So I'm going to go do that.
I understand most people think it's most feasable to go with an iron shortblock. However, I really don't need the weight. I have further goals with this car on besides this motor, and one of them is weight transfer. Our engine couldn't be placed further forward, and our axle centerline is about as far back as they could get. Great for not getting any traction.

dude if you want to run a roots/ts blower forget about your current motor. If you want one you gotta swap the whole top end, the timing cover, relocate the alternator, get the intercooled manifold, mount the heat exchanger, etc. etc. etc.

The parts list is a mile long. You're better off getting the entire engine you listed along with a new blower.

Yes, heh, I've seen this list for converting the 99-01 over. You're absolutely right, it's very long. I would like to source these parts used, and thankfully I think I'll have the time to do it correctly as far as prices go.


Thank you guys. I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

Chris

 

[97desertCobra]

dude if you want to run a roots/ts blower forget about your current motor. If you want one you gotta swap the whole top end, the timing cover, relocate the alternator, get the intercooled manifold, mount the heat exchanger, etc. etc. etc.

The parts list is a mile long. You're better off getting the entire engine you listed along with a new blower.

Or you could just build it and use a centrifugal. Mine has plenty of torque with 4:10 gears and I drive it every day with 500hp 450tq and I haven't even built the motor yet. 500hp at the wheels is difficult to wrangle. A linear power curve is not necessarily a bad thing on the street..:burnout:

+1. If you want the 03-04 eaton or PD blowers then get a complete 03-04 engine. It will save you money and headache in the end. If you do end up building your current engine then a 96-04 Cobra crank will work. 03-04 Cobra rods and a decent set of forged pistons. You can run 10.1 compression with a blower as long as you get a good tune, use good gas and dont go crazy with the boost, about 15 psi. If you are dead set on the PD type blower then I would say 9.1 or maybe 9.5.1 compression at the most.

As for the fuel mods, if you are going for reliability then get a fuel system that can support a little more power than what your goal is. If your goal is only 450-500rwhp then get a fuel system that can support 600rwhp. I say this for 3 reasons, first you dont want the fuel system being the thing that prevents you from reaching your goal as some times even an advertised 500rwhp capable system doesn't always support that horsepower, every situation is a little different. Second it will give you some room to grow if down the road you want more power, and lastly its good to have peace of mind knowing that you wont go lean from lack of fuel because your nearing the limits of your fuel system.

 

[poniesviii]

Wow man. That aluminator long block is $6500, and it seems they only want you to run 8.5:1 if you're running boost. I realize it's all new.

What are thoughts on MMR? I've read some things, but with what I've read.. I don't know what to think! Would be nice if I could get them to build my alum block for the same price as they need for one of their built iron block shortblocks.

 

[poniesviii]

+1. If you want the 03-04 eaton or PD blowers then get a complete 03-04 engine. It will save you money and headache in the end. If you do end up building your current engine then a 96-04 Cobra crank will work. 03-04 Cobra rods and a decent set of forged pistons. You can run 10.1 compression with a blower as long as you get a good tune, use good gas and dont go crazy with the boost, about 15 psi. If you are dead set on the PD type blower then I would say 9.1 or maybe 9.5.1 compression at the most.

As for the fuel mods, if you are going for reliability then get a fuel system that can support a little more power than what your goal is. If your goal is only 450-500rwhp then get a fuel system that can support 600rwhp. I say this for 3 reasons, first you dont want the fuel system being the thing that prevents you from reaching your goal as some times even an advertised 500rwhp capable system doesn't always support that horsepower, every situation is a little different. Second it will give you some room to grow if down the road you want more power, and lastly its good to have peace of mind knowing that you wont go lean from lack of fuel because your nearing the limits of your fuel system.

Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware forged cranks started in '96. Thought that was a '99 thing.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards 9:1 or 9.5:1 CR.

If I want more power down the road.. I must've hit my head. Stuff's addictive though eh!

Thank you for the fuel info. I don't want to go too big, bigger runs warmer, but I don't want to skimp and run lean like you mention also. I'll be researching that when the time comes. Any thoughts on fuel pumps could be mentioned anytime though I guess.....

Thanks again guys!

 

[97desertCobra]

Wow man. That aluminator long block is $6500, and it seems they only want you to run 8.5:1 if you're running boost. I realize it's all new.

What are thoughts on MMR? I've read some things, but with what I've read.. I don't know what to think! Would be nice if I could get them to build my alum block for the same price as they need for one of their built iron block shortblocks.

Give MMR a call and they might be willing to work with you.

As for the fuel pump a twin walbro set up may work. What kind of fuel system does your Mark 8 have? Return or returnless? Here is a lind to Glenn's Performance. I know his systems are specialized for mustangs but you could call him and see if they would have anything that would work for you.

Mustang Fuel Systems - Glenn's Performance

 

[SpittingCobra]

Yes, heh, I've seen this list for converting the 99-01 over. You're absolutely right, it's very long. I would like to source these parts used, and thankfully I think I'll have the time to do it correctly as far as prices go.


Thank you guys. I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

Chris

Bro 99-01 parts list is alot shorter than a B-head 4 valve motor like what you have! The entire top end is different.

You can send MMR your Teksid block and have them build it.

The whole twinscrew conversion+built motor is pretty far fetched and the reason no one does it.

If your heart is set on that then you would be wise to find a blown up terminator longblock and swap you aluminum shortblock in.

No matter which way you slice it you need a ton of parts.