GT500 vs. ZL1.

[GarageLogic]

Well that was done by a journalist was it not? We all know how well they can drive. ;-)

Better than most of the people who will be buying the car?

Despite all it's electronic nannies, it can't overcome driver overconfidence coming as a result of the GM PR machine. Car might be "track ready", but chances are most of the people buying it will not be. I expect to see lots of pics of wrecked ZL1's in the first few months of them hitting the roads.

 

[Snagged]

Better than most of the people who will be buying the car?

Despite all it's electronic nannies, it can't overcome driver overconfidence coming as a result of the GM PR machine. Car might be "track ready", but chances are most of the people buying it will not be. I expect to see lots of pics of wrecked ZL1's in the first few months of them hitting the roads.

True enough, which is sad in itself. Of course some of the journalists amaze me with their lack of driving skill despite all the cars they have driven.

 

[IOMZL1]

I am taking the fact that heat soak is a major concern during spring, summer and fall. My source? Car and Driver on the 2010 and 2011 GT500 during the 2009/2010 Lightning Lap. Heat soak does happen, and when it does, the 2010 GT500 can lose 12-16% of its power. That is 64-86 horsepower lost at the flywheel due to pulled timing.

How does that mean GM is unsure of the performance of the ZL1 in hotter temperatures and has planned these media days with an alternate agenda? The mule has been in testing for many years. Perhaps it is just winter and these are the tracks / conditions available? Or maybe that is why the ZL1 was a late release, to facilitate this plan for cold weather media testing?

My point being, some of these comments are very biased and too many assumptions are being made. If this is truly a ‘better’ forum than Camaro5, let's prove it here with rational thoughts and conclusions.

 

[ShelbyKid]

No offense to the OP, but this thread is just going to turn in to more of the same back and forth that we've seen in most of the other recent comparison threads (by the same people that have been posting in all the other threads LOL).

Until the 13' is in the hands of some magazine writers and we start seeing some numbers, it's all just speculation.

That being said, please continue op:

 

[bpmurr]

Oh, and in case you missed the memo, the ZL1 is now considered a supercar, not just a measly musclecar like the GT500. According to Dragoneye over on C5, that is.

Guy needs to feel good about his purchase. I think he came from a Cobalt so it's a big step up for him...LOL

 

[bpmurr]

I am considering the fact that heat soak is a major concern during spring, summer and fall. My source? Car and Driver on the 2010 and 2011 GT500 during the 2009/2010 Lightning Lap. Heat soak does happen, and when it does, the 2010 GT500 can lose 12-16% of its power. That is 64-86 horsepower lost at the flywheel due to pulled timing.

With 32-45 degree ambient temperatures, it would prolong heat soak by 30% (quick estimate). If GM chose to run a free breathing Z06 at the same time, the ZR1 might not look as impressive. I am under the impression that the ZR1 run was to lay down a benchmark for the ZL1. The ZR1 wasn't involved in the press event as far as I am aware of so, it was used to fluff the ZL1s time. If you can compare the CTS-V's heat soak issues, they will directly be evident in the same 1.9l LSA. This is a major complaint with private owners....

This is probably why you see the published ZL1's 1/4 and 0-60 times all over the spectrum, some editors are getting the cars soaked and it has a drastic effect on performance.

How much power does a NA car like the Boss lose do to heat?

 

[thePill]

How does that mean GM is unsure of the performance of the ZL1 in hotter temperatures and has planned these media days with an alternate agenda? The mule has been in testing for many years. Perhaps it is just winter and these are the tracks / conditions available? Or maybe that is why the ZL1 was a late release, to facilitate this plan for cold weather media testing?

My point being, some of these comments are very biased and too many assumptions are being made. If this is truly a ‘better’ forum than Camaro5, let's prove it here with rational thoughts and conclusions.

Both the 1.9 and 2.3 Eaton blowers are heat soak prone units. You will see most of the "Hero" runs done in cool temperatures. Ford did their "Hero" run in May 2010 with an even worse M112 and a Nurburgring run in June as well. I never said they were "unsure" they most certainly are sure... this is why they chose to run in cold ambient temperatures. It is a highly intelligent way to counter act the Eaton.... Run media events in the cold.

Car forums are full of assumptions, my thoughts are rational and are formed into rational conclusions. The Eaton is a heat hog, why build a track ready car with such a unit.

99.9% of my comments will be Mustang biased, my biased isn't blind though... I usually have a very good reason why I made the decision I did.

This is a much better forum than Camaro5, this is where Camaro fans can dispute my post without being banned. I post here because I intend on someone disputing the contents without being oppressed. If my comments are incorrect, tell me they are incorrect... tell me why they are incorrect and then post correct information. If a post bothers someone because the content just upsets them but has no real information on the subject... then that is a different story...

 

[thePill]

How much power does a NA car like the Boss lose do to heat?

I don't have the figures but it is nowhere near what a supercharged car loses. The 2010 used the old M112 and was known for its heat soak... I have heard 5.0 GT's lose about 5-7% which is about 21-29hp so the Boss should be around there. Some supercharged applications are even higher, I beleive the Pedders Camaro pulled like 100hp from the car so cool downs were required..

When a car pulls timing due to heat, the CPU is trying to protect the car and use a more drastic measure to cool the engine. It doesn't harm the engine at all...

There are benefits for each system... Cost is a big one.

Edit: The Boss would have suffered the most at 4400ft.

 

[IOMZL1]

A major reason Team Corvette and Camaro are testing in cold weather is because they are unsure of the heated lap times and performance.

I never said they were "unsure" they most certainly are sure... this is why they chose to run in cold ambient temperatures.

I'm not upset, not at all.

If your bias isn't blind, it does alter your vision a bit (and perhaps your memory too).

OK. I'm over it. Let's carry on...

Both the 1.9 and 2.3 Eaton blowers are heat soak prone units. You will see most of the "Hero" runs done in cool temperatures. Ford did their "Hero" run in May 2010 with a even worse M112 and a Nurburgring run in June as well. I never said they were "unsure" they most certainly are sure... this is why they chose to run in cold ambient temperatures. It is a highly intelligent way to counter act the Eaton.... Run media events in the cold.

I suppose Ford is just not that intelligent choosing the hotter temperatures to run these hero runs. Or maybe they just feel bad for GM? Either way, there is no excuse if their 2013 hero runs aren't up to anyone's expectations. Clearly, thus far, they have not been as they have not chosen to release them to the public.

 

[Devious_Snake]

Maybe Ford runs their "hero" runs in hotter temps to prove what it can do in even the "non-deal" situations, therefore letting you know theres more in there if its run in a better situation?? :shrug:

some of the comments are funny. I am in agreement that GM should have made the ZL1 as their GT500 killer set up for the drag strip and brought back the Z28 as a track car, but with a N/A engine...they are stupid though as evidenced by several things: the first batch of ZL1's wont have the carbon insert in the hood, unprepared. People have ordered that car in september and its still has not been delivered. Let alone they stopped production on the Volt and laid off over a 1K workers....doesnt exactly promote confidence in the brand. I think if this camaro fails, GM is in trouble again

The ZL1 to me is the best looking camaro your ever gonna see in this current gen. However its still bulky, visibility sucks, interior blows and well its GM. Its going to be fast and all that, and I like it, but the owners are going to suck and surely crash those things, especially the auto ones, too much overconfidence by unprepared drivers trying to show off. I cant wait to get my 2013 shelby and kill every Maro i see!!!!

 

[thePill]

I'm not upset, not at all.

If your bias isn't blind, it does alter your vision a bit (and perhaps your memory too).

OK. I'm over it. Let's carry on...



I suppose Ford is just not that intelligent choosing the hotter temperatures to run these hero runs. Or maybe they just feel bad for GM? Either way, there is no excuse if their 2013 hero runs aren't up to anyone's expectations. Clearly, thus far, they have not been as they have not chosen to release them to the public.

It's not the love of a particular automobile that affects my vision and memory, it is usually the fault of the occasional Budweiser and pain killers

If I were an engineer and I was testing a car, I would want the most unfavorable conditions. In this case, the 2010 GT500 was criticized for heat soak. Testing a new aluminum block 5.4 in hot air ensures that a customer won't come back and wave the brown BS flag at me. The issue was heat soak so I need hot ambient temperatures while I do a hero run.

The whole chain of ZL1 media events seen some of these aspects, 4400ft testing, cold track temps and some damp track runs (didn't go well). Ford has tested in Nevada too but a major concern is the loss of horsepower from heat soak. The initial test day was strategically planned, cold, dry weather and a custom track. Why equip your car with standard cooling equipment if the test are done in 35 degree weather?

 

[Snagged]

Maybe Ford runs their "hero" runs in hotter temps to prove what it can do in even the "non-deal" situations, therefore letting you know theres more in there if its run in a better situation?? :shrug:

some of the comments are funny. I am in agreement that GM should have made the ZL1 as their GT500 killer set up for the drag strip and brought back the Z28 as a track car, but with a N/A engine...they are stupid though as evidenced by several things: the first batch of ZL1's wont have the carbon insert in the hood, unprepared. People have ordered that car in september and its still has not been delivered. Let alone they stopped production on the Volt and laid off over a 1K workers....doesnt exactly promote confidence in the brand. I think if this camaro fails, GM is in trouble again

The ZL1 to me is the best looking camaro your ever gonna see in this current gen. However its still bulky, visibility sucks, interior blows and well its GM. Its going to be fast and all that, and I like it, but the owners are going to suck and surely crash those things, especially the auto ones, too much overconfidence by unprepared drivers trying to show off. I cant wait to get my 2013 shelby and kill every Maro i see!!!!

So is this a hard proven fact or just a rumor?

 

[thePill]

How is Chevrolet planning on selling a 2013 ZL1 convertible when the previous convertible tops are still experiencing wear/rub marks and leakage? Those convertible owners are pissed (and probably banned).

 

[Devious_Snake]

So is this a hard proven fact or just a rumor?

this is actually fact unless GM has fixed the situation. But if you go to camaro5 there was a bunch of them complaining that they would have to go back to chevy when they came in to have them installed, when it should have come that way in the first place. Like I said it was the case couple months back, but GM could have fixed the situation by now

 

[ON D BIT]

I suppose Ford is just not that intelligent choosing the hotter temperatures to run these hero runs. Or maybe they just feel bad for GM? Either way, there is no excuse if their 2013 hero runs aren't up to anyone's expectations. Clearly, thus far, they have not been as they have not chosen to release them to the public.

Ford does not market the vehicles on hero runs. The reason we did not see times from the ring this past summer. The reason they never closed down that track. With those in charge of SVT now are choosing instead to focus on engineering and testing instead of the so called hero(or best lap) runs. And after the link RY has posted 100's of times I can see why they choose this course of action.

The fact is that both the GT500 and the ZL1 will lose power in heat and or hot lapped which is why neither of them are good for road course apps!:beer:

 

[IOMZL1]

Now, on to VIR where everyone knows the head to head will be (I said this a few weeks ago). Team Camaro had an existing video of a 2011 GT500 SVTPP to base their run on. Why not just grab a 2012 GT500 and go head to head instead of racing a 2 year old video?

If they had brought a GT500, I don’t even want to hear the conspiracy theories of how the driver manipulated the lap to make the car look slower. It isn’t GM’s responsibility to get fast lap times out of the GT500, it is Ford’s.

NASA and SCCA Solo is pretty much an uphill battle for a 4200lb car with mild to heavy understeer.

I haven't heard any reviews stating the ZL1 has understeer. The SS? Yes. The ZL1? By all accounts it has been drastically transformed and does exactly what you would want it to in the corners.

Car and Driver:

Starker is the transformation of the ZL1’s handling characteristics from those of a stock SS. In the latter, the driver is always fighting the car—it understeers on turn-in and oversteers on corner exit, all served up with a healthy dollop of body roll. The ZL1 does exactly what you want all the time, with no surprises. Front grip is tenacious enough that you actually get a sense of the tires biting in as you turn the wheel.

GM sees the drag race now as a sub standard measurement of performance. If an ass kicking is abound, then change the damn subject...These two cars (Mustang and Camaro in general) try very hard to be track ready competition cars. The Boss 302 and GT are pretty much pulling it off... The Camaro? Not so much. This "Track Ready" nonsense will continue, until Ford redefines the Pony Car in 2015... and then watch the old ZL1's have their asses handed to them by a 5.0 GT.

How is GM changing the subject any different from ridiculing them for changing it? If it isn’t something people want, nobody will buy it. People are often beaten down for thinking outside of the box by those who fear change or don’t like how the new ways will influence their life. Like it or not the ZL1 has changed things. Track ready for competition or not, GM is redefining the Pony Car NOW.

 

[IOMZL1]

The fact is that both the GT500 and the ZL1 will lose power in heat and or hot lapped which is why neither of them are good for road course apps!:beer:

All cars lose power in heat, but I agree with you on the heat soak issues.

 

[ON D BIT]

If they had brought a GT500, I don’t even want to hear the conspiracy theories of how the driver manipulated the lap to make the car look slower. It isn’t GM’s responsibility to get fast lap times out of the GT500, it is Ford’s.

Your not saying that Ford should shave tires, tune the chasis(suspension and splitter/spoiler down-force), tune the motor, take out unnecessary oem weight off, for one specific track in order to achieve the fast lap times? All for what....marketing purposes?

 

[Snagged]

How is GM changing the subject any different from ridiculing them for changing it? If it isn’t something people want, nobody will buy it. People are often beaten down for thinking outside of the box by those who fear change or don’t like how the new ways will influence their life. Like it or not the ZL1 has changed things. Track ready for competition or not, GM is redefining the Pony Car NOW.

I don't think road racing is ever going to take over the main focus of buyers which is now on drag racing. Road racing is just too expensive and time consuming for the average Joe. Having a car that handles well in the turns is great but at the end of the day I believe straight line performance is going to remain king.

 

[91svtbird]

Your not saying that Ford should shave tires, tune the chasis(suspension and splitter/spoiler down-force), tune the motor, take out unnecessary oem weight off, for one specific track in order to achieve the fast lap times? All for what....marketing purposes?

You forgot to mention adding a full roll cage which has a dramatic affect on chassis stiffening and track times. I noticed the "Ring" times are advertised (talked about) by GM and GM faithful on a regular basis without mention of this fact.

I know Ford also tested with a full cage too but you don't see them advertising track results leading people to think those results are from a bone stock factory car like our boy Al is doing.