That is interesting, I did not know this. I was under the impression both Ford and GM tested their cars in stock form. If this is true then it is very misleading.
GT500 vs. ZL1.
- Thread starter thePill
- Start date
That is interesting, I did not know this. I was under the impression both Ford and GM tested their cars in stock form. If this is true then it is very misleading.
This is the first I've heard of any of this, but then again I'm new here.
The ZL1 had a roll cage at the ring and 30+ lbs of data acquisition equipment in the trunk. The interior was a bit stripped down for purposes of installing the roll cage. Weight was a likely higher than that of a stock ZL1.
The chassis rigidity of the Camaro is higher than the Mustang - while I'm sure the roll cage provided some stiffness improvement, its main purpose was safety for the driver, not a performance gain.
IOMZL1 said:
The ZL1 hasn't changed anything yet, it hasn't even been released to the public. Even if you go from the "reviews" and follow the changes, GM had no choice but to make changes in order to even attempt to be competitive in the Pony car segment. The current Camaro sucks by all standards. The Mustang was whipping it bad, that's indisputable. I guess you can pull the sales figures argument if it helps ya feel better.
GM Is redefining nothing. All they did was take a system from one of their other models and put it in the Camaro, again it isn't even out yet. Hard to be redefining when your still unavailable. I will say GM upped their game with the ZL1 from what has been released but until the car is in owners hands it doesn't matter.
If you want to be speculative it could be argued that Ford is still the school yard bully, pushing Chrysler around and bitch slapping GM. Ford has drastically improved the GT500 according to what we have seen.
Keeping the comparisons with current cars, GM is in desperate need of help.
Agree. Even though soccer is THE sport in most of the world, football is king in the USA. Likewise, road course performance may be the standard in many other countries, but quarter mile/straight line performance is the accepted standard in North America.
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Its been going of for years, as the c5 z06 ring time was done on shaved tires. The CTSV ring and less weight and added down-force. GM rents out the ring for weeks at a time running 100's of laps traffic free all for that one halo lap.
Nissan does the same thing. Ferrari needs to know where the mag is testing 2 weeks in advance so that they can tune their vehicle for that circuit. As GTS and DBK have pointed out Ford sent a tuned(+ hp) Ford GT to a mag test between $400k cars. Since then Ford has wised up, and a new group is running SVT.
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Doesn't matter what the intent of the cage was, the result on the chassis was the same. An as-delivered ZL1 will not be equal to the caged ZL1 that ran the 'Ring. Period.
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Road and Track reported mild understeer, it is unclear if understeer would increase if the track was warm or not. Inde itself, or at least the GM configuration, doesn't have many turns to begin with. I think I seen some snap oversteer in the VIR video too.
GM is the master of misdirection... once offered a challenge to all journalist and private owners in a CTS-V challenge and some young kid in a BMW won.
Then... GM brought out 4 ringers and look who the drivers are...
Cadillac CTS-V Challenge: So Yeah, BMW Kinda Won
Kind of a crap deal, pro drivers in ringer cars....
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I agree. And, the ZL1 is really ugly. It looks like a squashed caddy. I have a good friend who is a GM guy and he agrees that it looks horrible. He said he'd rather buy a Challenger.....LOL.
It is my understanding that all ZL1's that were produced have been on hold since late February. They will not ship any of the ZL1's until further notice.
One man actually received his ZL1 in Texas and....
Hmmmm.... Something wasn't right...
One man actually received his ZL1 in Texas and....
Hmmmm.... Something wasn't right...
just go to camaro5, they have pics of hundreds of ZL1's sitting out in the lot in the brutal cold and snow at the Oswego plant...doing nothing...i would be pretty pissed as a owner
I heard that that GM's ZL1 QC process involves having the self-professed statistics expert from C5, GoldenBear, personally count every nut and bolt on the car to ensure scientific conformity. Then they all get driven once by Dragoneye in order to be officially labeled a "supercar"! That's a lot of work for two guys.
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Wow, I would be too. It would be nice to know what they the hold up is. Anyone have a picture of this handy?
In what ways?
I can say that Ford was the one who redefined the Pony Car's segment when SVT put the infamous Terminator SC Engine. And that was 9 years ago.
NOW I can say they're redefining the Pony Car's category again with the most powerful V8 in the World at 650+HP... stock.
Then I can say Ford will redefine the Pony Car's segment because it'll install a triangle shaped lug nut.
I think you're safer to say that each company redefines the Pony Car's category w/ each new and more advanced model.
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The ZL1 production and shipping stoppage of this magnitude and secrecy reminds me of the Motor Trend Boss 302 accident...
Report: Boss Mustang brake pin critically fails during 60-0 test
Oddly enough, the shipping halt was announced on the last day of the media event.
Report: Boss Mustang brake pin critically fails during 60-0 test
Oddly enough, the shipping halt was announced on the last day of the media event.
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check this thread out....lol
[ame=http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207661]Road & Track records showing the Boss out performs the ZL1! - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com[/ame]
now that im looking theres so much chaos over there, from people rumoring chevy delaying the delivery to add more power :lol1:
to many people suggesting giving up their allocation...if you're bored go take a look around I almost feel bad for some of them
[ame=http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207661]Road & Track records showing the Boss out performs the ZL1! - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com[/ame]
now that im looking theres so much chaos over there, from people rumoring chevy delaying the delivery to add more power :lol1:
to many people suggesting giving up their allocation...if you're bored go take a look around I almost feel bad for some of them
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I think you are right in that segments are redefined constantly, sometimes in bigger ways than others. The ZL1 does it more so now because it hits the ground running where it didn’t exist before. This is more of a ‘shock’ to the segment than gradual improvement over time. Read any of the ZL1 reviews and you will see this.
Motor Trend:
For 2012, Chevy aims to redefine the ponycar completely in one electronically optimized fell swoop. The 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 takes the once-simple formula for all-American performance and reworks it into a recipe for a modern cyborg warhorse. Literally leaning on suspension technology originally developed for Cadillacs and Corvettes, the Camaro achieves better-than-Boss levels of handling with the highway ride quality of a CTS-V. The active exhaust system sounds nearly as quiet as a family sedan at part throttle, but opens up its big, angry pipes when you stand on it. Like the ZL1, the 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca does allow for ride quality and handling adjustment, but the big difference is the Camaro is adjusted by a smarter-and-faster-than-you computer -- different performance modes are summoned with an index finger through a console-mounted button -- while the Mustang is dialed in using a screwdriver and your spare time.
For 2012, Chevy aims to redefine the ponycar completely in one electronically optimized fell swoop. The 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 takes the once-simple formula for all-American performance and reworks it into a recipe for a modern cyborg warhorse. Literally leaning on suspension technology originally developed for Cadillacs and Corvettes, the Camaro achieves better-than-Boss levels of handling with the highway ride quality of a CTS-V. The active exhaust system sounds nearly as quiet as a family sedan at part throttle, but opens up its big, angry pipes when you stand on it. Like the ZL1, the 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca does allow for ride quality and handling adjustment, but the big difference is the Camaro is adjusted by a smarter-and-faster-than-you computer -- different performance modes are summoned with an index finger through a console-mounted button -- while the Mustang is dialed in using a screwdriver and your spare time.
IMO, the ZL1 has done this with overall vehicle engineering, not just engine engineering or adding a lug nut. Look at the underbody of the ZL1 as an example of the attention to detail they paid to aerodynamics - better than the Boss. Look at the 'hero lap' times of this 4200 lb car as a testament to the tuning of the suspension, electronic steering, and PTM. The third generation MR dampers speak for themselves. They started from scratch and took little compromise when it came to performance. The ZL1 is a car that is very comfortable on the street (like it or not, more so than the GT500), capable on the drag strip, and killer on the track. They got everything they could out of the car, more than what people thought was possible given weight and HP. This will have to be the norm going forward for these top performing models because GM has set the standard. Hence, they have redefined the segment.
Moving forward chassis will change and weight will go down, but these principals will have to be applied to the Mustang to remain competitive. Look at what they’ve done for 2013 to compensate other than the engine, they’ve tried to compete with the electronically switched dampers (not even same ballpark as MR), they’ve hyped minor aero changes (gurney flap and fascia) but in reality they are hoping 650 / 200 takes the focus off of the other inferior parts of the car as compared to the ZL1.
Yes, the 650 HP GT500 is impressive and a feat of engineering especially to beat the GG tax, but IMO it hasn’t redefined anything because I don’t think cars will have to always trump this number moving forward with the lighter more advanced chassis and CAFE standards. Cars will get lighter and faster because of other technologies, not just increasing HP. Clearly HP isn’t everything as many here prefer the Z06 to ZR1 or Boss to GT500. Besides all this, the 650 HP number is just a number because we all know most of that will be unusable at the low end with the same stock tires.
As if 200 mph top speed isn’t just a marketing exercise, the ultimate ‘hero lap’? Way more people will track a ZL1 than will reach 200 mph in the GT500. I’d rather the engineering time went to other things than top speed.
not to sound like a jerk, but if you were a mustang owner or fan for that matter on camaro5 forum you would be banned for even questioning the car, or its performance. Glad we can have positive debate here without anyone losing their license to type! :beer:
I used to sell the newer camaro and I can honestly say that I could NEVER see out of it. I love the chopped top look of it, but the small windows and tight rear corners make it impossible to see easy. also coming over a crest in the road that also cuts into a bend, good luck.
Just like Ford did in 2003? And again in 2011? They didn't just redefine the segment, they CREATED the segment. If you think the GT500 running a 2:58 at VIR wasn't a segment redefining moment then you're insane. Is the ZL1 faster now? Of course it is. The GT500 has been a stationary target since 2010. If GM couldn't beat a car that hasn't changed an iota since 2010, and is on a platform that's been in production since 2004, they'd have to be the biggest retards on the planet. The fact that they managed to accomplish this not so amazing feat does not make them geniuses or class redefiners.
Apparently "we all" don't know (i.e. you don't) that with revised gearing and launch control, the 2013 is going to blow the 11/12s away when it comes to getting the power to the ground. The 2013 doesn't pull harder, it pulls longer.
Just like GM is hoping a Nurburgring laptime takes the focus off the other inferior parts of the car as compared to the GT500. Things like the powerplant (especially internals), drag strip times, interior and options availability (real nav, recaros, etc), etc. GM can harp on laptimes all they want but the bottom line is that for serious track duty, a supercharged 4200 pound car is a very POOR choice (as is the GT500, tbh).
You say 200 MPH is meaningless because a lot more people will track the ZL1 than will top end a GT500, but a LOT more people will street and strip race BOTH cars than will track either of them, so by your same logic strip performance is far more important than track performance.
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Better watch it, or GoldenBear is gonna come set you straight! Someone over on C5 tried to make the same point and the user GoldenBear's response was to ask for some sort of statistics/numbers to back up those claims. It's really sad, as common sense tells you this will be the case. Again, ZL1 fans simply downplay the areas of performance where the ZL1 is weak. :bored:
That is just speculation at this point. Sure, it's likely if the Camaro goes to the Alpha, but the idea that future cars weight is going to decrease while safety standards increase is a little naive.
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QC issues on a mid model year release, This car will actually be in customers hands when the 2013's are being produced. It would be nice to find out why the initial shipped models were recalled... They might as well just call it a 2013 at this point. I know ZL1 guys are pissed that their cars have been buried in snow for 2 months.
They could be stock piling ZL1s to inflate sales numbers when the 2013 Mustangs start rolling out. Who knows, it is a cluster f@ck over there right now. I don't think Ford really needs to say anything, just let Team Camaro beat themselves up.
They could be stock piling ZL1s to inflate sales numbers when the 2013 Mustangs start rolling out. Who knows, it is a cluster f@ck over there right now. I don't think Ford really needs to say anything, just let Team Camaro beat themselves up.
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