Questions reguarding the suspension for 13' GT500

[SteveG@Lethal]

Hey Van,
Thanks for bringing up some great points. It is extremely wise to always make sure that the product you are selling is quality, and certainly gives people the ability to stand behind the product they sell. However, just because you haven't personally tested the product doesn't mean it isn't a quality product. Frankly I am guessing most shops are not in the business of testing every single product on the market, because that time and money is better spent actually selling a product.

Like any quality part design and manufacturing, we had our own extensive in house testing, as well as outside testing ranging from our dealers that race (both drag racing, autocross and track), Street testing for comfort, and even OE level testing which we passed all with flying colors; no surprise for a company that has over 20 years experience in Ford Performance.

As a global company that makes parts for thousands of vehicles, we do have some overseas manufacturing, however we currently manufacture all of our Mustang parts locally in Southern California.

As far as profit margin, we try to pass that along to our retailers; I've never heard of that being a problem! I get the feeling you are insinuating that is the only reason people push our products, but I think if you actually tested our parts you would find that to be incorrect. For us, it is all about creating a QUALITY product that our partners CAN sell, and MAKE money on so we can all grow our business together.

Btw, Griggs uses a standard T/A differential cover that only has 2 plugs (just like ours) so it has the exact same fitment with track pack Shelby cars as well.

http://www.griggsracing.com/images/tawattsl.jpg

Just wanted to highlight the key phrases in the above statement.

Well said!! :beer:

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

Hey Van,
Thanks for bringing up some great points. It is extremely wise to always make sure that the product you are selling is quality, and certainly gives people the ability to stand behind the product they sell. However,
1. just because you haven't personally tested the product doesn't mean it isn't a quality product.

2. Frankly I am guessing most shops are not in the business of testing every single product on the market, because that time and money is better spent actually selling a product.

Like any quality part design and manufacturing,
3. we had our own extensive in house testing, as well as outside testing ranging from our dealers that race (both drag racing, autocross and track), Street testing for comfort, and even OE level testing which we passed all with flying colors; no surprise for a company that has over 20 years experience in Ford Performance.

As a global company that makes parts for thousands of vehicles,
4. we do have some overseas manufacturing, however we currently manufacture all of our Mustang parts locally in Southern California.

5. As far as profit margin, we try to pass that along to our retailers; I've never heard of that being a problem!

6. I get the feeling you are insinuating that is the only reason people push our products, but I think if you actually tested our parts you would find that to be incorrect. For us, it is all about creating a QUALITY product that our partners CAN sell, and MAKE money on so we can all grow our business together.

7. Btw, Griggs uses a standard T/A differential cover that only has 2 plugs (just like ours) so it has the exact same fitment with track pack Shelby cars as well.

http://www.griggsracing.com/images/tawattsl.jpg

Point 1. Above

I never said it wasn't

Point 2. Above

Well I guess that's what makes me different. I'm not just selling something because someone said it was great. And when we spoke on the phone I told you the same. And since you hadn't personally tested the product and you were not able to give me any feedback from the position of someone who drives a GT500 I opted to wait and see.

Point 3. Above

And we are all still diligently waiting for that list of companies and for them to opine about your products. I'm not saying your products don't work. I'm simply saying I'd like to hear from all of the folks and different people who tested them.

Point 4. Above

I'm glad you brought this up. What is the address in So. Cal of your manufacturing facility? I would like to look it up on Google Earth. This is refreshing news as I was under the impression that the majority of your products are made in South Korea and your bushings made in Australia.

Point 5. Above

You obviously misunderstood what I do as a business owner. I'm not lured in by aggressive margins and low cost leaders. I'm more interested in providing quality service, products and real world feedback to my customers and how a product works on track and the street. When I'm satisfied with the performance of a product and I can communicate the how's and why's I'm more successful and respected. Versus saying, "The guys at "XYZ" said it was tested and works great" Sorry, not a Revan Racing business model or method of operation.

Point 6. Above

I'm telling people how I operate. If that is how other businesses function so be it. You continue to discuss testing. shelbysvt already opined about the non-adjustable aspect of the WL upper control arm. I've tested plenty of components and at some time possibly WL.

Point 7. Above

I'm familiar with Griggs products. I'm the #1 Griggs Dealer in the U.S. for the last 3 years. What you will also note is I'm not running a Griggs Watts Link on my 2013 GT500 as of yet. I'm doing my own R&D before I decide to add that to my car and then test it. There I go again, testing stuff. As I've stated previously, I'm concerned about the inner workings of the track pack cooling system and the pick ups and returns in the differential cooling package. Just because there are holes in a differential cover doesn't mean that will suffice for pick up and return lines being plumbed accurately. If you have some insight you can share in the matter please do.

 

[hognutz]

So you are saying that you have spent more money on testing, racing, and engineering than Ford?

How is your product better engineered than the Ford stock parts?

Have you looked at your rear control arms? by this post I think you have not.

I will clue you in they are stamped. Stamped control arms are not good no matter how many hours it took you to engineer them. they flex.

GM and ford both fumble on the stock control arms.

 

[dustin88lx]

Well I think the OP got more than he bargained for....

Go Van!!!!!

 

[Tob]

Stamped control arms are not good no matter how many hours it took you to engineer them.

When the performance metric is minimal NVH, the OEM's dominate the segment - hands down.

:-D

 

[Jroc]

I agree with both ON D BIT, and others arguing against him. Yes sometimes letting the factory get it right is the way to go, and making changes to the vehicles geometry can actually hurt it's performance. For example I haven't heard of too many people changing their basic suspension setup on their MR equipped cars(ZL1, ZR1, CTS-V, Centennial/Carbon model Z06's, etc) to improve on it's performance, but I'm no expert on them so maybe some do.

At the same time your basic/typical aftermarket control arm doesn't re-engineer the vehicles geometry it just replaces the POS stamped steel pieces running soft/weak bushings with much better quality pieces. Sometimes re-engineering the factories geometry is a good thing such as on Foxbody/SN95 chassis cars as their factory geometry leave much to be desired, but the S197 is a far superior platform when talking things like geometry and strength. Still that's not to say that you can't necessarily improve a new Mustangs performance with the aftermarket just do your research.

I will say this on my Terminator I was less than impressed with the improvement MM coilovers, and valve Bilsteins made on my 03 Cobra. The FTBR IRS bushing and MM FLSFC's both made a huge improvement on the car.

 

[ON D BIT]

It's not really about cheap as much as functionality and integration. WL is a fairly new product to the Mustang and has been picked up by a number of companies. I too spoke with WL but holding true to form I don't get involved with and/or sell a product that I have not tested or my customers have not tested. I also like to support American manufacturing like Griggs and BMR.

Van, can you have functionality and integration without spending money on testing and engineering?

Again changing out the entire suspension of a sports car for 600 bucks worth of parts is not something I would do.

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

Van, can you have functionality and integration without spending money on testing and engineering?

Again changing out the entire suspension of a sports car for 600 bucks worth of parts is not something I would do.

Can you have functionality and integration without testing? At some level I am sure that is possible. ie. lower control arms.

I'd rather have testing and real world abuse testing before bringing something to market.

BMR- Al Miller, Owner and NMRA Champ

Griggs - Bruce Griggs, Owner and Multi Champion in road racing

They test their parts. They race and win with their parts.

Real world testing is what separates companies.

 

[Jroc]

Can you have functionality and integration without testing? At some level I am sure that is possible. ie. lower control arms.

I'd rather have testing and real world abuse testing before bringing something to market.

BMR- Al Miller, Owner and NMRA Champ

Griggs - Bruce Griggs, Owner and Multi Champion in road racing

They test their parts. They race and win with their parts.

Real world testing is what separates companies.

Which do you prefer a well engineered upper/trailing arm(whatever you want to call it) like what's used OEM, or a torque arm like Griggs prefers on a S197 platform?

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

Which do you prefer a well engineered upper/trailing arm(whatever you want to call it) like what's used OEM, or a torque arm like Griggs prefers on a S197 platform?

I'll take a torque arm every time. Better traction and better anti-squat geometry.

 

[ON D BIT]

Can you have functionality and integration without testing? At some level I am sure that is possible. ie. lower control arms.

I'd rather have testing and real world abuse testing before bringing something to market.

BMR- Al Miller, Owner and NMRA Champ

Griggs - Bruce Griggs, Owner and Multi Champion in road racing

They test their parts. They race and win with their parts.

Real world testing is what separates companies.

I am big fan of Griggs Racing and have met with Bruce and John a couple times as they are located here in Sonoma County. Bruce is an engineer and you can tell in the parts they create. What did they spend 2 or 3 years testing the s197 suspension before bringing it to market. Yes their parts cost a little more than $600 for a new suspension.

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

I am big fan of Griggs Racing and have met with Bruce and John a couple times as they are located here in Sonoma County. Bruce is an engineer and you can tell in the parts they create. What did they spend 2 or 3 years testing the s197 suspension before bringing it to market. Yes their parts cost a little more than $600 for a new suspension.

I picked up 6 seconds at Sebring with my Griggs Suspension over bolt ons.

Yes, Griggs is expensive but if you want to compete or you want to pass a GT3 in a corner under power, I challenge any suspension company to bring it. Yes, I did just that, took a GT3R at Sebring in turn 17 with my 2007 Griggs GR40 TT car. Porsche owner, not happy. It's that good.

 

[COOL COBRA]

What am I missing here? Does anyone remember the OP's initial question? Re-invent the wheel.. No. Get a good GT 500 street suspension, Yes.. Call Van!!!!

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

What am I missing here? Does anyone remember the OP's initial question? Re-invent the wheel.. No. Get a good GT 500 street suspension, Yes.. Call Van!!!!

Thanks Cool Cobra. Actually spoke to the OP yesterday! Discussed doing essentially the same set up as your car.

 

[Jroc]

I'll take a torque arm every time. Better traction and better anti-squat geometry.

Cool!

I assume like with the Foxbody/SN95 cars a torque arm setup uses a stiffer setup which would reduce body roll? Yes/no?

Also many on the older Mustangs use to claim they got extra cabin noise with the torque arm, is that noticeable with a well engineered torque arm such as Griggs on a S197 car? One more question I know Fbodies use to experiance this some, but I think it can be a common trait with a torque arm, but can you get rear brake axle hop with a torque arm setup on a S197 car? Just curious.

Thanks,

Jesse

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

Cool!

I assume like with the Foxbody/SN95 cars a torque arm setup uses a stiffer setup which would reduce body roll? Yes/no?

Also many on the older Mustangs use to claim they got extra cabin noise with the torque arm, is that noticeable with a well engineered torque arm such as Griggs on a S197 car? One more question I know Fbodies use to experiance this some, but I think it can be a common trait with a torque arm, but can you get rear brake axle hop with a torque arm setup on a S197 car? Just curious.

Thanks,

Jesse

Jesse

I've put torque arms on stock suspension cars. It just creates a different rear suspension geometry. On the S-197 it doesn't require stiffer shocks.

The inherent nature of a torque arm can create cabin noise from the transfer of the gears in the differential through the torque arm even in an S-197 car. That's the biggest downside. The pro's outweigh the con's in my opinion with a torque arm. I had one customer who told me he didn't think he was going to be able to live with the noise. About 2 weeks later he called me and said he didn't hear it anymore. He adapted to the slight whine.

I've never experienced rear axle brake hop with my GT500 equipped with a Torque Arm and Watts link. There is a lot that can be said for what Ford did with the stiffness of the S-197 Chassis.

Van

 

[ON D BIT]

Cool!

I assume like with the Foxbody/SN95 cars a torque arm setup uses a stiffer setup which would reduce body roll? Yes/no?

Thanks,

Jesse

I rode in a live axle 01 svt mustang with the full griggs setup and the suspension was even softer than the my stock 03 mach 1 suspension. We took a 180 degree 35 mph freeway exit ramp at over 100mph with no tire squeal. With correct suspension geometry one can run softer springs and not have the body of even the oem suspension.

 

[Jroc]

I rode in a live axle 01 svt mustang with the full griggs setup and the suspension was even softer than the my stock 03 mach 1 suspension. With correct suspension geometry one can run softer springs and not have the body of even the oem suspension.

With a torque arm on the old Mustang you upped the spring rates, and it didn't compromise ride quality(depending on how much you upped them) compared to a POS Foxbody 4link. Kind of like a Terminator coupe runs 600 lb springs at all 4 corner from the factory. The IRS design allows for a stiffer setup without degrading the ride. You throw some 600 lb springs on the back of a 4link car and try riding around on the streets and you'll be a toothless mofo before long. I've never heard of someone building a Foxbody/SN95 car with a torque to improve it's handling that did not noticeable up it's spring rates compared to the 4link setup.

 

[ON D BIT]

With a torque arm on the old Mustang you upped the spring rates, and it didn't compromise ride quality(depending on how much you upped them) compared to a POS Foxbody 4link. Kind of like a Terminator coupe runs 600 lb springs at all 4 corner from the factory. The IRS design allows for a stiffer setup without degrading the ride. You throw some 600 lb springs on the back of a 4link car and try riding around on the streets and you'll be a toothless mofo before long. I've never heard of someone building a Foxbody/SN95 car with a torque to improve it's handling that did not noticeable up it's spring rates compared to the 4link setup.

I am not sure what the spring rates were but it was noticeably softer over bumps in normal city driving. Again this was the full gr40 system minus the sla. So it was riding on 4 koni coilovers. The main point in the sales pitch was correct geometry that stops body roll without upping spring rates and the ability to drop the car without losing any suspension travel.

Here is a 5.0 article on the GR40:

For the street, relatively soft spring rates (350/200 lb/in, f/r) give a won-derful ride, as plush as stock with greatly reduced brake dive and good roll control. The car will handle like a dream and will absolutely not beat up you or your passengers in the process. These soft springs are also great at the dragstrip, where they allow fast chassis reaction at the launch, aiding rear traction.

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/te...ross_open_track_front_suspension/viewall.html

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

I can't tell you how many of my customers with GR40 SS Suspensions tell me how much better the ride quality is with coilover suspension from Griggs is over other suspension set ups. 100% customer satisfaction. How often do you hear that?