Header Swap (bolts)

[ANGREY]

Any of you who swapped out your headers, did you bother with locking header bolts?

I don't want to use something like thread locker (in fact I've seen other guys use anti seize) but I'm already concerned about a bolt turning loose, even more so with the additional NVH that supposedly comes with the FPC.

If you guys didn't use locking bolts, what did you torque to? And how did you know? I guarantee that it's all but impossible to get a torque wrench on every bolt and some of them are just tightened the best you can do with stubby box/open wrenches.

Let me know your thoughts/wisdom/experience please, getting ready to swap out.

 

[Ninjak]

Lock Bolts. What headers are you going with ? The Kits come with some pretty decent stuff.

 

[ANGREY]

I had my mind set on ARH and if I got full system from flanges to tips, that's what I'll get. Called ARH yesterday and they include bolts and gaskets but the bolts aren't locking.

The last set of locking bolts I used were stage 8 and they seem like the biggest pain in the ***. What with the clips that are impossible to get on/off without losing or dropping a couple, the fact that there's usually a bit of a gap between the closest setting for the metal tab and the nearest collector, etc.

Has anyone tried using spreader locking bolts? The wedge bolts seems like a gimmick to me and there's no value in locking the head of the bolt, it's trying to provide additional grip or resistance to the screwed body of the bolt. Which makes the stage 8 truly the best overall design. But spreader bolts seem like they'd increase the contact and friction. I just wouldn't want to damage the heads. They seem to work pretty much like red heads in concrete.

 

[ANGREY]

So the bolts that are coming with my headers from ARH are "M10x1.25" and I want to buy a set of locking stage 8 header bolts.

Does anyone know or can anyone confirm which stage 8 kit or part number is applicable for the 350 heads? Or just as good, do the header bolt holes correspond exactly with depth and thread pattern to the coyote heads? On Stage8's website they list 2 kits for the coyote, one that was apparently "early production" and another that's for basically right after up until now. I wrote stage8 asking, I also wrote Ford Performance (on their web form after chatting with a rep, they didn't know).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ANGREY]

Okay, here's what I found out/did.

Kooks sends locking header bolts with their kits. ARH sends header bolts, just not the stage 8 lockers.

The Kooks stage 8 kits are their internal part #BK101

Which is the locking header bolt set for coyote heads. By inference, one could assume that the GT350 heads have the same header fastener arrangements (hole dimensions/thread pitch).

So for any of you wanting to use locking header bolts, it appears to be the same for coyote heads and the gt350 heads.

 

[biminiLX]

Just to help you and others clarify, I helped my buddy install ARH on his 2011 GT and early 2011 Coyote use a different bolt with fine vs coarse thread.
Glad you have it worked, please post a clip.
-J

 

[SlowSVT]

Does the Voodoo come from the factory using exhaust studs? If not and it's an option I would install a studs instead. You can apply a lot more torque to a stud than a tapped aluminum bolt hole and are more durable. I have a distrust of header bolts even in an iron head, lots to bad memories having to deal with exhaust fasteners.

 

[ANGREY]

Does the Voodoo come from the factory using exhaust studs? If not and it's an option I would install a studs instead. You can apply a lot more torque to a stud than a tapped aluminum bolt hole and are more durable. I have a distrust of header bolts even in an iron head, lots to bad memories having to deal with exhaust fasteners.

Hey, I'm right there with you, which is why I'm insisting on using the locking bolts. I'm not climbing underneath and going through the nightmare of steering knuckles and starters and engine mounts twice.

The problem with the studs is that it's SOOOO tight that in some cases you can't even get the old one off (or the new one on) with the studs in place, so they all (or nearly all) gotta come out and then go back in and then you're right back where you started, not being able to use thread locker (for fear of seizing it in the head and making it permanent, where it has to be broken off or drilled/tapped, which ain't EVER going to be possible while the engine is still in the body).

I hate locking header bolts too, but it's worth the insurance against the vibrations. Those stupid little clips are a pain in the ass. But it beats bolts or studs/nuts backing out and having to climb back under the car. (usually that means the gastket it fried where it leaked too so there's no getting around completely redoing the install.)

 

[SlowSVT]

Based on your response it appears the Voodoo engine uses bolts on the exhaust manifold. When dealing with headers none of these are good options it's a hassle no matter what. Header installation on a Mustang on a "good day" is an 8 hour job some guys opt to drop the engine in the K-member for better access. There are valid reason for using nuts but in the long term I think studs are a more reliable option.

BTW: you can get distorted thread licking nuts, blue lock-tite on the studs into the cylinder head.

 

[ANGREY]

Based on your response it appears the Voodoo engine uses bolts on the exhaust manifold. When dealing with headers none of these are good options it's a hassle no matter what. Header installation on a Mustang on a "good day" is an 8 hour job some guys opt to drop the engine in the K-member for better access. There are valid reason for using nuts but in the long term I think studs are a more reliable option.

BTW: you can get distorted thread licking nuts, blue lock-tite on the studs into the cylinder head.

The issue really comes down to this.

Can't use the factory studs without sacrificing "locking" feature because you HAVE to remove them in order to get the old header off and the new header in. Once you put them back in, you can't use locktite or anything that endangers having them seize up and break off later (keep in mind it's only a hex head in the center so snapping them off or stripping the recessed head pattern if they're really bound up isn't just possible, it's likely).

If you're never worried about ever taking them out again, then just lather them up with locktite and crank the hell out of the nuts and make it bulletproof set and away you go.

If you're not willing to do that, the only other real options is locking header bolts.

Kooks sends them standard with their headers. Not sure why ARH doesn't, but we'll see if anyone running ARH headers has any problems down the road. It's not unbearable, but my 350 does have more felt vibration than my previous mustangs. Between normally elevated vibrations and running this thing out so many times, I'm just going to feel much more comfortable with a locking solution. It's possible someone could just crank the stock studs/nuts down hard and have no issues with backing out and have no issues with getting the nuts (and the studs) back out later if necessary, but I absolutely don't want to even risk it. This will be my 3rd header swap on a post 5.0 pushrod mustang. I know what a pain in the ass it is. Trust me.

 

[ANGREY]

My first car, a 99 2V GT, the starter had 3 bolts. One bolt you could see and feel. The 2nd bolt, you couldn't see it but you could feel it. The 3rd bolt, you couldn't see OR feel, you simply had to take a series of extensions and go from the front of the fascia and go fishing until you got the socket on it. If you weren't a mechanic or hadn't done it a zillion times, just that little feature alone could hang you up for an hour or two cursing trying to figure out how in the hell to get the starter out of the way (or going back to trying to figure out if you could make it work with the starter still on, etc).

 

[ANGREY]

One thing I forgot to mention. I believe that the factory studs are in opposite posts from the pattern on the flanges/gaskets that ARH uses.

I do not know if Kooks uses the same pattern for their flanges or not.

Bottom line, with ARH, you COULD in theory, leave the factory studs in place and just use the extra two holes per port (opposite corners) for the new fasteners. However, as most people discover, you can't really get the old header off with the studs in place (nor the new header on).

I think you have to remove all but a couple of the studs. Leaving a stud in place on each side helps as a guide to get the gasket on and lined up properly before the flange/header goes on to sandwich it to the head.

I guess my point is, with at least ARH, the factory studs have to get swapped into the alternate hole positions at each port.