Court: No right to resist illegal cop entry into home

[Njc0las]

Someone tried to steal my friend's motorcycle this weekend. A neighbor called the cops and the guys got busted. The cops had the landlord let them into my friend's apartment for some unknown reason. The cops called my friend while he was at work and had him come home. They grilled him on some fish tank parts he had in his room and then left. When he asked why they went into his apartment they said they could because he was a victim of a crime. Is that not BS? Seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Njc0las]

... trying not to be off topic.

 

[mswaim]

Wow, that doesn't sound right. I think you should call the police.

 

[FordSVTFan]

purpose of a warrant is to make sure governments cannot write their own warrants and essentially get their own authorization to enter homes, obtaining documents, etc, at will, without presenting evidence under oath to a judge. it is my understanding that on majority of warrants, they are presented prior to their execution. am i right? I can imagine there are some exceptions, but I cannot fathom that many. if you invade my home with a warrant, I would like to see it as you execute it. are you not entitled to view the judge's signature as they execute the warrant? patriot act takes that privileged away, but as far as i know, thats what use to happen.

as I've requested, why do they seal warrants after the fact?

You do realize you are defining the term warrant using the term warrant. :shrug: The purpose of a warrant is to help to ensure that people are not subject to unlawful search and seizure.

There are a few variants in warrant types and how they are executed. Forget your conspiracy theory of the Patriot Act because less than one/one hundredth of all warrants fall into that category.

After everyone in the residence is accounted for and potential threats are quelled, you would be able to see the warrant. In rare occasions the warrant is sealed or unavailable because what LE is looking for may be at multiple locations and there is a valid reason not to tip off the bad guy who can call the next bad guy with specifics.

 

[Outlaw99]

a law like this is the beginning of tyranny. there comes a time when people must defend themselves against a tyrannous gubment.


i am all for the police and righteous law, but this one is pushing it.

i have sat quietly and not posted, i wanted to see how this thread developed.

 

[BleedBlueOval]

You do realize you are defining the term warrant using the term warrant. :shrug: The purpose of a warrant is to help to ensure that people are not subject to unlawful search and seizure.

There are a few variants in warrant types and how they are executed. Forget your conspiracy theory of the Patriot Act because less than one/one hundredth of all warrants fall into that category.

After everyone in the residence is accounted for and potential threats are quelled, you would be able to see the warrant. In rare occasions the warrant is sealed or unavailable because what LE is looking for may be at multiple locations and there is a valid reason not to tip off the bad guy who can call the next bad guy with specifics.

i see, thank you.

 

[EvergreenSVT]

Someone tried to steal my friend's motorcycle this weekend. A neighbor called the cops and the guys got busted. The cops had the landlord let them into my friend's apartment for some unknown reason. The cops called my friend while he was at work and had him come home. They grilled him on some fish tank parts he had in his room and then left. When he asked why they went into his apartment they said they could because he was a victim of a crime. Is that not BS? Seems ridiculous to me.

Him being the victim of a crime is not an exception to the warrant requirement. Now there may be some other reason they were allowed to go in there, but it sounds very odd.

 

[wvmystichrome]

I do take issue with my 4th amendment rights being trampled. I only interpret this as saying that physical resistance is not an acceptable response. And it isn't. You can rest assured I would vigorously pursue the unlawful search and seizure of anything in my home.

This thread is a good read and hopefully it doesn't pass on to other states.

But to respond to the above quote. Around here both on the WV and KY side the homeowner would not have a chance. The courts would always find in favor of the police officer...No matter what. It has been tried and true for many, many years. You cannot prosecute a local police officer for any reason around here. With the buddy buddy system in place they go scott free.

 

[olefafl]

How about one from Aug. 14, 1988. "Indianapolis schoolteacher Fred Sander shot and killed officer Matt Faber, after a host of police burst into his home and commenced beating him. Because the cops were in the wrong the murder charge was reduced to involuntary manslaughter" (from todays The Indianapolis Star | Indianapolis news, community, entertainment, yellow pages and classifieds. Serving Indianapolis, Ind. | indystar.com Dan Carpenter writer.
I don't know the case and can't look into it till later, so be easy on me.

 

[Ronin5.O]

The problem I see with this is that if the police enter your home, without due cause, and stumble upon something that IS illegal, how long will it be till they have a warrant to arrest you for it?

It's easy for the officer to come up with a reason to justify the search after the fact, just look at traffic stops on "suspicious vehicles". After they find something they can easily say "Oh, well I smelled something funny while following the suspect", and have it stick in court.

Why don't we all just give in and put NSA monitored cameras in our houses? If the police can enter for any reason without a warrant than why not? Oh, thats right, thats why we have the Bill of Rights in the first place.

If they knock on the door, and you don't want their prying eyes to look around, open it just enough to get out, and LOCK THE DOOR BEHIND YOU.

 

[FordSVTFan]

The problem I see with this is that if the police enter your home, without due cause, and stumble upon something that IS illegal, how long will it be till they have a warrant to arrest you for it?

It's easy for the officer to come up with a reason to justify the search after the fact, just look at traffic stops on "suspicious vehicles". After they find something they can easily say "Oh, well I smelled something funny while following the suspect", and have it stick in court.

Why don't we all just give in and put NSA monitored cameras in our houses? If the police can enter for any reason without a warrant than why not? Oh, thats right, thats why we have the Bill of Rights in the first place.

If they knock on the door, and you don't want their prying eyes to look around, open it just enough to get out, and LOCK THE DOOR BEHIND YOU.

You clearly missed the section that evidence gained unlawfully will be excluded.

It is apparent you do not understand how our jurisprudence system works.

 

[Ronin5.O]

You clearly missed the section that evidence gained unlawfully will be excluded.

No, I got that part. At that time, they wont charge you for it, as it was not found during a legal search.

However, what is to stop them from coming back later and charging you for it when they do have legal recourse? When you know the law has been broken and where, its easier to find supporting evidence to get approval for a legal search. That's all I'm getting at, and you're nuts if you think that never happens. The charges probably wont stick, but you still have to fight them in court, using your time and money.

It is apparent you do not understand how our jurisprudence system works.

Don't be a dick, thats not necessary (The way you wrote sounds condescending, if not :beer

 

[DefCon3]

Why is there an assumption of violence on the part of someone resisting unlawful (i.e. Without a warrant) entry to a home? Is a homeowner presumed to be "violent" if they ask for a warrant and absent the production of same, merely say, "no" and close the door.

 

[runsonboost]

No, I got that part. At that time, they wont charge you for it, as it was not found during a legal search.

However, what is to stop them from coming back later and charging you for it when they do have legal recourse? When you know the law has been broken and where, its easier to find supporting evidence to get approval for a legal search. That's all I'm getting at, and you're nuts if you think that never happens. The charges probably wont stick, but you still have to fight them in court, using your time and money.




Don't be a dick, thats not necessary (The way you wrote sounds condescending, if not :beer

The police cannot come into your house, find something illegal and then get a warrant, it doesent work that way. The prosecutor most likely wont even entertain the idea of going before a judge and saying "oh well you know your honor the officers obtained some contraband from an illegal search and now we want a warrant to arrest them for it." Cops do dumb shit all the time, and get caught. That doesent mean every single cop is going to kick your door in and start looking around and haul you off to jail.

No offense intended, but you obviously dont know the rules of a legal search and what happens with evidence obtained illegally.

 

[FordSVTFan]

No, I got that part. At that time, they wont charge you for it, as it was not found during a legal search.

However, what is to stop them from coming back later and charging you for it when they do have legal recourse? When you know the law has been broken and where, its easier to find supporting evidence to get approval for a legal search. That's all I'm getting at, and you're nuts if you think that never happens. The charges probably wont stick, but you still have to fight them in court, using your time and money.

What stops them is the doctrine established in Wong Sun of the fruit of the poisonous tree.

Don't be a dick, thats not necessary (The way you wrote sounds condescending, if not :beer

I suggest you read the rules and not name call and through insults outside of smackdown.

 

[Mach1USMC]

Why is there an assumption of violence on the part of someone resisting unlawful (i.e. Without a warrant) entry to a home? Is a homeowner presumed to be "violent" if they ask for a warrant and absent the production of same, merely say, "no" and close the door.

Very true- IF there is no warrant and you don't want them to enter just say no and close the door.

The case with the Marine, where we are still waiting on details, it sounds like there was a "no-knock" warrant. The police say they identified themselves- the surviving home-owner says they didn't. The problem is if you live somewhere that has a high incident rate for home invasions and all the sudden a bunch of guys just bust down your door with weapons and you just woke up.... well as you can see it's a recipe for disaster. Not only that the initial reports say the police "found" what they were looking for that was part of the warrant - it turned out to be a "DEA" ball cap. So these tools KILLED a Marine who was only trying to defend his home against unidentified invaders for a freaking ballcap that you can buy at Wal-Mart, Amazon.com etc.

I'm all about law and order but holy crap- IMO this is a bit out of control!! IMO in order to get a "no-knock" warrant you better be DAMN sure what you are going to find- especially since there is a large chance for violence and a bad ending. Is that too much to ask?:shrug: .... I think SOME police get caught up in the "they're all mutts" mentality and they lose sight of the fact that they are dealing with human beings that have rights.

 

[mswaim]

Very true- IF there is no warrant and you don't want them to enter just say no and close the door.

The case with the Marine, where we are still waiting on details, it sounds like there was a "no-knock" warrant. The police say they identified themselves- the surviving home-owner says they didn't. The problem is if you live somewhere that has a high incident rate for home invasions and all the sudden a bunch of guys just bust down your door with weapons and you just woke up.... well as you can see it's a recipe for disaster. Not only that the initial reports say the police "found" what they were looking for that was part of the warrant - it turned out to be a "DEA" ball cap. So these tools KILLED a Marine who was only trying to defend his home against unidentified invaders for a freaking ballcap that you can buy at Wal-Mart, Amazon.com etc.

I'm all about law and order but holy crap- IMO this is a bit out of control!! IMO in order to get a "no-knock" warrant you better be DAMN sure what you are going to find- especially since there is a large chance for violence and a bad ending. Is that too much to ask?:shrug: .... I think SOME police get caught up in the "they're all mutts" mentality and they lose sight of the fact that they are dealing with human beings that have rights.

Since most of the actual facts surrounding this case are not known, you are making huge assumptions, but this entire string of posts indicates just how ill-informed most Americans are about the law as it pertains to searches, warrants, etc. The fact this guy was a marine makes no difference, in fact once they figure this out and find he was the true target of the warrant based on sound evidence - fellow marines should be a bit ashamed he wore the same uniform.

The truth is, that marine heard sirens approaching, his wife confirmed they heard them. He had the frame of mind (and the time) to recognize the threat those police officers posed to him, guided his family into a closet, then engaged the entry team. Unfortunately, that was not his best tactical option.

 

[Mach1USMC]

Since most of the actual facts surrounding this case are not known, you are making huge assumptions, but this entire string of posts indicates just how ill-informed most Americans are about the law as it pertains to searches, warrants, etc. The fact this guy was a marine makes no difference, in fact once they figure this out and find he was the true target of the warrant based on sound evidence - fellow marines should be a bit ashamed he wore the same uniform.

The truth is, that marine heard sirens approaching, his wife confirmed they heard them. He had the frame of mind (and the time) to recognize the threat those police officers posed to him, guided his family into a closet, then engaged the entry team. Unfortunately, that was not his best tactical option.

Maybe you're reading different articles than I am. But what I read was the Marine had gotten home within a couple of hours of the incident from pulling an all night shift at the mine (maybe the police thought he was mining coke:shrug but he was ASLEEP when his wife woke him up saying she SAW a bunch of men armed in black that were approaching the house.... look, I get it. You're a cop- of course you're going to side with LEO's. I've never worn a badge but I've had the privilege and opportunity to serve with MP's for a few months on base. It was an eye opening experience indeed. I don't pretend to have the knowledge or experience that you or Adam have. BUT- let me say this. YOU as leo's NEED the public's trust and support. When Leo's (no matter what the intentions are) do things like this- THEN you give a statement that later is PROVEN to be blatantly false it doesn't help YOUR cause. Yes we are still waiting for the facts (that the police have publicly suppressed BTW) but on the surface it smacks of a police eff up and now a cover up.

YOU are looking at this from a LEO pov. Take a step back (if you even have the ability to do that) and look at it from a citizens pov. This guy, who happens to live in a neighborhood that is known for home invasions- many of which are posing as leo's - wakes out of a sound sleep by his frantic wife to see that "some people" dressed in black and armed are entering his home. What's he supposed to do? We know now a "no-knock" warrant was executed. But HE didn't know that- all he was trying to do was protect his family. And this damning "evidence" that this warrant was based on- that his LIFE was based on- was a GODDAM HAT- and now the police are not talking at all and are saying they won't release the warrant or any statements about the case and YOU expect US to trust you? REALLY? Come on man- I'm sorry - as I stated before I usually side with LEO's the majority of the time- but this is BS. You want our trust- then they need to release the warrant and have an OUTSIDE agency do a COMPLETE investigation.

 

[FordSVTFan]

YOU are looking at this from a LEO pov. Take a step back (if you even have the ability to do that) and look at it from a citizens pov. This guy, who happens to live in a neighborhood that is known for home invasions- many of which are posing as leo's - wakes out of a sound sleep by his frantic wife to see that "some people" dressed in black and armed are entering his home. What's he supposed to do? We know now a "no-knock" warrant was executed. But HE didn't know that- all he was trying to do was protect his family. And this damning "evidence" that this warrant was based on- that his LIFE was based on- was a GODDAM HAT- and now the police are not talking at all and are saying they won't release the warrant or any statements about the case and YOU expect US to trust you? REALLY? Come on man- I'm sorry - as I stated before I usually side with LEO's the majority of the time- but this is BS. You want our trust- then they need to release the warrant and have an OUTSIDE agency do a COMPLETE investigation.

You are looking at this from a Marine's POV and are taking it personally because a former Marine (I know there are no former Marines) died. The men dressed in black also had written in large white letters the word "POLICE."

The "GODDAM HAT" was obviously part of a bigger situation. No judge is issuing a warrant for a hat. It is obviously what the hat means. For a judge to issue a valid warrant it must be found on credible testimony before that judge amounting to probable cause. Just stating there is a DEA hat will not get the warrant. However, as an example, testimony from a CI says this person wore a DEA hat to commit a certain crime and that is corroborated, then looking for that particular evidence is important.

Believe it or not there are bad people in every walk of life, even Marines.

Former Marine Found Guilty in Wife, Sons' Murder Case - FoxNews.com

Former Marine indicted in 2009 Snell murder | WJLA.com

Former Marine Sentenced For Murder - San Diego 6

 

[mswaim]

Or this one - it happened a few miles from my office, both officers were/are friends of mine. I look at life (and situations such as this thread are built on) through the eyes of someone trained and experienced with the law surrounding searches, warrants, etc. which is what I told you in my last post. You are not trained or experienced, yet you continue to try and paint the police (along with Adam and I) as the bad guys over one news story that the ink isn't dry on. Read on.............

Marine Is Suspect In Ceres Police Officer Killing - Sacramento News Story - KCRA Sacramento

Police Videos, Law Enforcement Videos, Taser Videos and Police Pursuit Videos - PoliceLink


The truth about the cop-killing marine
Michelle Malkin

If you watched the evening news a week ago, you may recall the sensational story of a distraught Marine who died in a murderous shootout with police. Anti-war writers and Latino activists have turned the cop-killer, Lance Cpl. Andres Raya, into a martyr. Don't believe the hype.

Network and cable TV shows repeatedly broadcast video and photo stills of Raya's Jan. 9 bloody gun battle in a Ceres, Calif., liquor store. Mental health experts immediately blamed post-traumatic stress disorder. Ignoring the cold-blooded murder of one of the ambushed police officers who was lured to his death, international headlines instead trumpeted the supposedly traumatized Raya:

Teenage War Veteran Committed Suicide 'By Cop'

Marine 'Committed Suicide by Cop to Avoid Iraq Return'

Kin of Marine Who Shot Policemen Ask if He Is a Casualty of War

Young Camp Pendleton Marine who shot officers did not want to go back to Iraq.

A far Left Web site, San Francisco Bay Area Indymedia.org, posted a complaint that the California legislature -- which lowered its flags to honor slain cop Sgt. Howard Stevenson -- was showing "no consideration [for the] young man whose life was ruined by military service."

La Voz de Aztlan, a radical fringe publication by Mexican nationalists, lionized Raya and demonized police:

"One can only speculate what horrors Andres Raya experienced in Fallujah. The slaughter by U.S. occupation forces of Iraqi civilians in Fallujah has been compared to the slaughter in Guernica by Nazi forces in 1937. Many U.S. Marines with a conscious (sic) have found it very difficult to reconcile the Iraqi civilian murders in their minds and have committed suicide. U.S. Marine Andres Raya decided to take some cops with him. Most probably he was harassed by them while growing up Mexican in this small northern California town." The paper also lambasted Raya's hometown, Ceres, as "a redneck town notorious for its mistreatment of his people."

Writing in the anti-war publication CounterPunch, Jack Random lamented Raya's death as "symbolic of the untold story of war. Hundreds of thousands of trained killers survive combat only to come home to a life for which they are no longer prepared. They have seen what men and women should never see. They have engaged in operations that brought them face to face with the death of innocent civilians, women and children."

The only elements missing in the bleeding-heart coverage of Raya's story were the soundtrack to "Platoon" and a bulk order of Kleenex. There's just one thing wrong with the sympathetic spin about the anti-war Marine. It's all dead wrong.

This much is true about Raya: The 19-year-old man did in fact serve with the Marines' 1st Intelligence Battalion's motor transport unit as a driver in Iraq.

But contrary to the impression left by initial media reports, Raya had never seen combat. And he was not headed back to Iraq. He had been transferred to a new unit scheduled for deployment to Okinawa. "During our investigation, we found he wasn't due to go back to Iraq, never faced combat situations and never even fired his gun," Stanislaus County Sheriff's Deputy Jason Woodman said.

Raya was high on cocaine at the time of the ambush, according to police reports. He was reportedly affiliated with the prison gang Nuestra Familia. Investigators found photos of Raya wearing gang colors and a shopping list in his bedroom safe that included body armor, assault rifles and ammunition. Authorities also discovered a video showing Raya smoking what appears to be marijuana and making gang sign gestures. The tape showed desecrated pieces of the American flag laid on a gymnasium floor to spell out expletives directed at President Bush.

Family members deny Raya's gang ties and blame the military. Meanwhile, Raya's neighborhood was decorated with anti-cop graffiti such as "Kill the Pigs" in his memory. And militant Hispanic residents celebrate Raya. Ceres resident Hilda Mercado told The New York Times that Raya "died like a true Mexican: He died standing on his feet."

The question isn't what got into Raya when he entered the military. The question is why and how Raya -- who police say had a propensity for violence well before he joined the Marines -- got into our military in the first place.

And now you know the rest of the story.



Sergeant Howard (Howie) Stevenson
Ceres Police Department
California
End of Watch: Sunday, January 9, 2005

Biographical Info
Age: 39
Tour of Duty: 20 yrs
Badge Number: 143

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Sunday, January 9, 2005
Weapon Used: Rifle; SKS
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Sergeant Stevenson succumbed to gunshot wounds sustained the previous night during a shootout with a suspect armed with a semi-automatic rifle.

Sergeant Stevenson and other officers had responded to a liquor store on North Central Avenue to investigate reports of an armed male who was acting strangely. The first officer on the scene was shot and wounded by the suspect. This officer took cover behind a car and returned fire as Sergeant Stevenson arrived at the scene. As Sergeant Stevenson exited his patrol car, the suspect shot him twice in the head, killing him.

The suspect exchanged shots with responding officers before fleeing the scene. He was shot and killed approximately three hours later during a second shootout. The suspect was believed to be under the influence of cocaine at the time of the incident.

Sergeant Stevenson had served with the Ceres Police Department for 20 years. He is survived by his wife, son, and two daughters