Court: No right to resist illegal cop entry into home

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mswaim

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I can understand the reactions of the family. Our instincts are to protect family above all else. A father seeing his son tackled (especially when unexpected) would provoke some aggression the majority of the time.


Which is fine, the father can go to jail just as easily. My point was, circumstances arose from his son's actions that circumvented his right to be secure in his home.

There are a ton of exceptions, so many even the experts have to double-check before providing advice.

Case in point = the son, once convicted is placed on felony probation with a search clause. He resides with his parents.

If he is allowed free rein within the house (which is usually the case) it is subject to search without warning, day or night (if appropriate) by any peace officer who chooses to do so.

The search can include all closed off areas, even locked drawers if evidence exists the son may have access to said areas.

If there is a "no weapons" clause in the paperwork and Dad is a gun-loving collector, he will need to move the collection to another residence, put them in storage, etc.

Your "rights" are not quite as absolute as most would wish them to be when it comes right down to it, but all of the exceptions were written after-the-fact driven by necessity.
 

rubicon04

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I mean seriously. A sergeant of mine gave this little gem of a quote..
He said, "I don't commit crimes. So if someone is kicking down my door, I know its the bad guys." If your not committing serious crimes, you'll never have to worry about the cops entering your home, warrant or not.

People who have never been through the process of obtaining a warrant (search or arrest) have no idea the amount of probable cause you need to prove to get one. It amazes me how many people think that cops just randomly pick people to kick in their door and search their house.

To the few of you LEO's on here who have been contributing to this thread, job well done. :beer: However, Its unfortunate though that some people will never get it and will always think that today's police force is the Gestapo.. :nonono:

This could not be further from the truth. You must not have any idea how many times warrants, searches, and raids have been conducted on the wrong residence...mistakes are going to be made plain and simple in any profession
 
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00streetfighter

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This is could not be further from the truth. You must not have any idea how many times warrants, searches, and raids have been conducted on the wrong residence

Really? Do you know that in a warrant you have to describe the residence, very accurately actually, to make sure that anyone reading the warrant and or raid plan, will know which residence it is without a doubt? Granted mistakes are made, I'm just not sure how. Maybe its a departmental thing?
 

mswaim

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This could not be further from the truth. You must not have any idea how many times warrants, searches, and raids have been conducted on the wrong residence...mistakes are going to be made plain and simple in any profession


Has it happened? Yes, unfortunately everyone involved is human and mistakes do occur.

How often does it occur? Very rarely, due to the oversight and careful planning that is required to do it safely.

In almost every case I've built, we videotaped the residence/business beforehand, adding in still shots, plus testimony from operatives who bought drugs, weapons, etc. from the place to be hit.
 

Planter

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He said, "I don't commit crimes. So if someone is kicking down my door, I know its the bad guys." If your not committing serious crimes, you'll never have to worry about the cops entering your home, warrant or not.

People who have never been through the process of obtaining a warrant (search or arrest) have no idea the amount of probable cause you need to prove to get one. It amazes me how many people think that cops just randomly pick people to kick in their door and search their house.

so cops never get the wrong house? or the wrong person? innocent people never go to jail for a crime they didn't commit?

Cops Raid Elderly Couple's Home 50 Times Looking for Crooks | NBC New York

Bungling cops raid wrong home... for 41st time - mirror.co.uk

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

Cop Kills Dog During Raid on Wrong House | NBC Philadelphia

D.C. Police Raid Wrong Home, City Refuses to Pay for Damage | The Agitator

[ame=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6fc_1218044747]LiveLeak.com - Minneapolis cops raid wrong house, fire 22 times, are awarded medals.[/ame]

Police Confront Broward Judge at Gunpoint | NBC Miami

Pearl Family Suing After Police Raid Wrong Home - Jackson News Story - WAPT Jackson

Cops raid wrong house, taze and arrest man anyway


but ya, the cops never get the wrong house, because they're the cops afterall, they're "perfect" and never make mistakes. :bored:
 

joeg215

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Which is fine, the father can go to jail just as easily. My point was, circumstances arose from his son's actions that circumvented his right to be secure in his home.

There are a ton of exceptions, so many even the experts have to double-check before providing advice.

Case in point = the son, once convicted is placed on felony probation with a search clause. He resides with his parents.

If he is allowed free rein within the house (which is usually the case) it is subject to search without warning, day or night (if appropriate) by any peace officer who chooses to do so.

The search can include all closed off areas, even locked drawers if evidence exists the son may have access to said areas.

If there is a "no weapons" clause in the paperwork and Dad is a gun-loving collector, he will need to move the collection to another residence, put them in storage, etc.

Your "rights" are not quite as absolute as most would wish them to be when it comes right down to it, but all of the exceptions were written after-the-fact driven by necessity.

I wasn't condoning people fighting off cops just because they come into your house without warning. You should definitely NOT do that. I was merely stating that the natural reaction of a person is to protect their family, especially in a heat of the moment situation. Im sure officers take this into account on a daily basis while making decisions, either by taking precautionary measures or getting backup.


Thats pretty interesting about the no weapons clause. I would think if the gun didnt belong to the offender, the father (or whoever) would be allowed to keep the weapon.
 

Stanley

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DefCon3

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If these "people" are state, local, or federal L.E. then your resistance is obstructing justice, especially after they tell you they do not need a warrant as there are warrant exceptions.

You simply arent grasping the nature of the ruling. It is simple there is no reason to physically resist what you consider to be an unlawful entry because there are more than adequate protections in the law. However, it is quite likely that you are not trained to know whether their entry is unlawful or your perception of what is unlawful is not consistent with the law. Therefore, to start a physical altercation is fruitless. Let them come in and do what they are going to do and then fight it later.

So the 4th Amendment is meaningless, and the citizen must take at face value the declaration by a LEO that a warrant isn't needed. And the only recourse is to pay thousands of dollars in legal fees to try to right the wrong, knowing that the legal system is biased against the civilian and favors the LEO?

I make this observation after having read numerous threads here and elsewhere that LEOs have no obligation to tell a suspect the truth, and may lie with impunity.

Again, this ruling will further damage the already shaky trust that many people have for the honesty of law enforcement. It should be overturned in it's entirety or rewritten to be narrowly focused.
 

00streetfighter

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I never said it doesn't happen. Ive read the stories too. What I said was, I don't understand HOW they happen. There are usually a lot of precautions to make sure HUGE mistakes like that don't happen. And yes, we are all "perfect" :poke:
 

00streetfighter

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I wasn't condoning people fighting off cops just because they come into your house without warning. You should definitely NOT do that. I was merely stating that the natural reaction of a person is to protect their family, especially in a heat of the moment situation. Im sure officers take this into account on a daily basis while making decisions, either by taking precautionary measures or getting backup.


Thats pretty interesting about the no weapons clause. I would think if the gun didnt belong to the offender, the father (or whoever) would be allowed to keep the weapon.

Its like that out here too.. There can't be any firearms in the same residence that a convicted felon lives in. Ive seen felons go back to prison over guns in their house that may not have been theirs (roommates, ect) because technically they have access to it.. :shrug:
 

FordSVTFan

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Thats crazy......

But the dead guy can go to court and get it all taken care of.

That is kind of the point of the decision. If you dont fight the police, even if they are wrong, it is likely you wont end up dead.
 

FordSVTFan

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So the 4th Amendment is meaningless, and the citizen must take at face value the declaration by a LEO that a warrant isn't needed. And the only recourse is to pay thousands of dollars in legal fees to try to right the wrong, knowing that the legal system is biased against the civilian and favors the LEO?

I make this observation after having read numerous threads here and elsewhere that LEOs have no obligation to tell a suspect the truth, and may lie with impunity.

Again, this ruling will further damage the already shaky trust that many people have for the honesty of law enforcement. It should be overturned in it's entirety or rewritten to be narrowly focused.

Please try not to take offense but it is clear you do not understand the case law that defines the 4th Amendment. It does not exist in a vacuum.

While a person has the protection again unlawful searches and seizures there is no right to question it at the time of occurrence with the use of force. If you do not take the LEOs word for it you can question them but you cant use physical force to stop them.

If the police find nothing illegal in the home, there is no reason to go to court and have it cost you thousands. If the police have done something wrong there will be lawyers lined up around the block to take the case on a contingency basis, so also no cost.

The legal system is not biased against the citizen/civilian, in fact, my experience is just the opposite.

The supreme court has said that during an investigation the police have no obligation to the tell a suspect the truth. For instance: "your buddy in the other room just gave you up" when it didnt happen. Just as citizens lie to police all the time.

How would you recommend it be written in such a narrowly focused way?
 

Planter

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I never said it doesn't happen. Ive read the stories too. What I said was, I don't understand HOW they happen. There are usually a lot of precautions to make sure HUGE mistakes like that don't happen. And yes, we are all "perfect" :poke:

carelessness, lack of attention to detail, get in a hurry and overlook things, get an address number switched, write something down wrong, fail to write something down and try to go off memory at a later date/time, false informant information, bad intel, sloppy police work (usually due to big ego), failure to check and double check things. that's how it happens.
 

DefCon3

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Please try not to take offense but it is clear you do not understand the case law that defines the 4th Amendment. It does not exist in a vacuum.

While a person has the protection again unlawful searches and seizures there is no right to question it at the time of occurrence with the use of force. If you do not take the LEOs word for it you can question them but you cant use physical force to stop them.

If the police find nothing illegal in the home, there is no reason to go to court and have it cost you thousands. If the police have done something wrong there will be lawyers lined up around the block to take the case on a contingency basis, so also no cost.

The legal system is not biased against the citizen/civilian, in fact, my experience is just the opposite.

The supreme court has said that during an investigation the police have no obligation to the tell a suspect the truth. For instance: "your buddy in the other room just gave you up" when it didnt happen. Just as citizens lie to police all the time.

How would you recommend it be written in such a narrowly focused way?

Whether anything illegal is found or not, the 4th Amendment clearly states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Warrant-less searches are not Constitutional. Any ruling to the contrary is a travesty. Having courts rule that nearly anything is "reasonable" with or without a warrant is just side-stepping the Constitution with fancy legalisms.

Why is it a crime for a "civilian" to lie to law enforcement officials / agencies while it is OK for LEOs to lie to civilians? And you say the courts are not biased against civilians and for LEOs.....

Again. my concern is that this increasing tendency toward side-stepping the Constitution will lead to a breakdown of civil order and a lack of respect for LEOs who enforce these laws.

Not being a lawyer, I have no idea at all how to write such a law and make it Constitutional. I just run a lawn service.
 
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mswaim

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carelessness, lack of attention to detail, get in a hurry and overlook things, get an address number switched, write something down wrong, fail to write something down and try to go off memory at a later date/time, false informant information, bad intel, sloppy police work (usually due to big ego), failure to check and double check things. that's how it happens.[/QUOTE[/U][/I]


Once again you post a response based on your opinion - even though you have no direct knowledge, no training, no experience - coupled with an obvious bias.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes. You really should try a night in a Holiday Inn Express, maybe that would help you gain some credibility. :shrug:
 

Lt. ZO6

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Warrant-less searches are not Constitutional. Any ruling to the contrary is a travesty. Having courts rule that nearly anything is "reasonable" with or without a warrant is just side-stepping the Constitution with fancy legalisms.

One of those types, eh?

What does the Constitution say about the USSC?
 

Planter

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Once again you post a response based on your opinion - even though you have no direct knowledge, no training, no experience - coupled with an obvious bias.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes. You really should try a night in a Holiday Inn Express, maybe that would help you gain some credibility. :shrug:


*edited by moderator* what I posted was not an opinion. those were simply scenarios of how things go wrong.

and you don't have any clue what my knowledge or training is or isn't. so STFU, make yourself useful and report to your local Duncan Donut shop.
 

00streetfighter

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*edited by moderator* what I posted was not an opinion. those were simply scenarios of how things go wrong.

and you don't have any clue what my knowledge or training is or isn't. so STFU, make yourself useful and report to your local Duncan Donut shop.

My guess would be it ISN'T in Law Enforcement. :shrug:
 

mswaim

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*edited by moderator*what I posted was not an opinion. those were simply scenarios of how things go wrong.

and you don't have any clue what my knowledge or training is or isn't. so STFU, make yourself useful and report to your local Duncan Donut shop.

All you have accomplished is to validate everything I said.

My guess is most of your knowledge related to LE work was learned from the back seat of a patrol car. :loser:
 

Stanley

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carelessness, lack of attention to detail, get in a hurry and overlook things, get an address number switched, write something down wrong, fail to write something down and try to go off memory at a later date/time, false informant information, bad intel, sloppy police work (usually due to big ego), failure to check and double check things. that's how it happens.[/QUOTE[/U][/I]


Once again you post a response based on your opinion - even though you have no direct knowledge, no training, no experience - coupled with an obvious bias.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes. You really should try a night in a Holiday Inn Express, maybe that would help you gain some credibility. :shrug:




So what he posted doesn't happen? Like him or not, all of the things he posted seem like things that could happen.
 
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