This one of the most informative threads I've ever read on SVTP.
Court: No right to resist illegal cop entry into home
- Thread starter BleedBlueOval
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Educate me on some points:
Can any cop in Indiana now go to any house and demand entry and not be legally refused? Is a warrant required?
What happens to the law abiding property owner or tenant afterwards if they do not have the financial means to seek legal remedy through the courts?
The Indiana court seems to have so poorly written their opinion and thus their judgement into case law, that is seriously detrimental to police-public relations. The possibility for abuse by the LEO agencies is too great in my humble opinion. Given it's case law, the Indiana legislature could write a law protecting residents and limiting LEO powers, overturning or limiting this case law, but don't bet on it.
Can any cop in Indiana now go to any house and demand entry and not be legally refused? Is a warrant required?
What happens to the law abiding property owner or tenant afterwards if they do not have the financial means to seek legal remedy through the courts?
The Indiana court seems to have so poorly written their opinion and thus their judgement into case law, that is seriously detrimental to police-public relations. The possibility for abuse by the LEO agencies is too great in my humble opinion. Given it's case law, the Indiana legislature could write a law protecting residents and limiting LEO powers, overturning or limiting this case law, but don't bet on it.
Planter
Banned
I could really see this getting bad for LEO's. If a LEO comes into someone's house without a warrant and without permission, they're liable to get shot and you're gonna have a bunch of dead cops on your hands, and it'll be totally justifiable from the homeowners stance.
Indiana is out of line on this one, I expect SCOTUS will put them back in check at some point.
Come to my house and attempt to enter without a warrant, I'll shoot your ass plain and simple, and take my chances in front of a jury.
Indiana is out of line on this one, I expect SCOTUS will put them back in check at some point.
Come to my house and attempt to enter without a warrant, I'll shoot your ass plain and simple, and take my chances in front of a jury.
I can see where the court's motive is coming from but I don't see it helping much considering that the population that is willing to harm a LEO for violating their 4th is likely not the same population that stays current with case law.
Homeowner that belives he can use force to keep the LEO without a warrent out of his home verse LEO that is acting under this ruling and is determined to make entry. I really don't see this decreasing violence as opposed to just leaving the 4th alone.
Homeowner that belives he can use force to keep the LEO without a warrent out of his home verse LEO that is acting under this ruling and is determined to make entry. I really don't see this decreasing violence as opposed to just leaving the 4th alone.
The point is that you wont make it to a jury. You really think you are going to take down an entire tactical team?
The point of this ruling, even though the opinion was crudely written, is there is no point in physically resisting what you perceive to be an unlawful entry at the time of entry. There are remedies in the law that will come into play after a court decides the entry was unlawful.
His "jury" would be comprised of 6 or 8 guys dressed just like the one he "shot". His house being the courtroom and a quick "guilty" verdict in his future.
How many times have you actually repeated the "point" of this ruling in this thread and people still don't get it. :shrug:
Tough guy has spoken!
Never said we were all Saints. I've been in long enough to have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I also know that there are more than a few LEO's with huge chips on their shoulders with God complexes that think they can do no wrong. I KNOW you've been around long enough to have seen a few of those. I hope for the citizens of that jurisdiction that isn't the case. I'm not holding out much hope though considering their "fearless leader" is Sheriff Dumbass... er - I mean Dupnik.
As far as the "rest of the story" - in this case the Sheriff's dept has already made it clear he's not releasing ANY of the documents, so we'll NEVER know the real story will we?:nonono:
Hey Brother..... I get your point. And I sincerely express my condolences for your loss. Losing friends and comrades in arms sucks. Cops aren't the only ones that happens to.
As I said, I FULLY realize we (Marines) aren't all Saints. Would you like for me to post some stories of some Dbag cops just to "even the score?".. i can def do that if that would help- Google works on my computer too. No one is perfect or has perfect people in their organizations- even LEO's.
What constitutes "resistance"? If one or more people show up at my door demanding entrance, and refuse to produce a warrant, is it considered "resistance" if I merely tell them to come back when they have a warrant and close the door? And if these same people then break down the door with force, having failed to produce a warrant, why am I not justified in using force to defend my home and persons inside?
This ruling is bad law and will get some LEOs killed or injured. The law enforcement community had better rethink it's position, as "I vas just following orders" is not a valid excuse against violating the 4th Amendment.
This ruling is bad law and will get some LEOs killed or injured. The law enforcement community had better rethink it's position, as "I vas just following orders" is not a valid excuse against violating the 4th Amendment.
While he might not release the documents to the public right away, once the investigation is closed they become attainable through a FOIA request. Also, the Prosecutors office will have to investigate the actions and wont be covering for any wrong doing of the PD. Lastly, a civil rights violation suit will bring in the Feds who will write a book on the incident.
But the point is that no one is questioning the authenticity of the warrant or that items noted in the valid warrant were located in the residence searched.
Of course there are good and bad in every profession, but it is rare that you see an entire tactical team made of all bad guys.
If these "people" are state, local, or federal L.E. then your resistance is obstructing justice, especially after they tell you they do not need a warrant as there are warrant exceptions.
You simply arent grasping the nature of the ruling. It is simple there is no reason to physically resist what you consider to be an unlawful entry because there are more than adequate protections in the law. However, it is quite likely that you are not trained to know whether their entry is unlawful or your perception of what is unlawful is not consistent with the law. Therefore, to start a physical altercation is fruitless. Let them come in and do what they are going to do and then fight it later.
No need, bottom line here is very simple (and I've pointed it out several times now). This thread has run its course, we are back to debating the "try that at my house and find out what happens" mentality.
This is a very complex subject matter, one you cannot discuss after Googling up a few pieces of ancient case law, reading two pages of a 100 page brief or by staying a night in a Holiday Inn Express.
I have tons of experience conducting surveillance, building cases, presenting my cases, being grilled by judges before they sign the warrant, conducting pre-raid drills, serving the warrants and conducting post-raid searches.
But with all of my years of experience, training and education, I still sought legal advice before jumping into any of the previously mentioned activities.
From my perspective, this thread has run its course. Hopefully some who participated and/or read along gained some insight into how the process works, while others I know maintain the thought no matter what, a man's castle is truly his home, not to ever be entered without due process.
But therein lies the rub - what is due process as it relates to searches, entries, etc. Most of the people quick to say no one is coming into their house don't have a clue about due process.
I pursued a car once which ended up pulling into a private driveway. The garage door opened, car pulled in and the garage door began to close. I drove into the garage, the door jammed on my hood.
The driver, a young man exited the car and ran into the house through an interior garage door. I followed him in and tackled him in the living room of the house. His father was not happy and tried to stop me. By the end of the evening, the son went to jail for DUI and other charges. The dad went to jail for interfering, resisting, along with the mother who also interfered.
The son was later convicted, the dad and mom both maintained they were within their "rights" to defend their home and their son. They both finally plead to lesser charges.
What's my point? - No one likes strangers in their homes, I don't either. But, I am not so dense as to think if my kid runs in the house followed by a cop that he is to be considered innocent and the cop is the guilty party.
Unfortunately, some folks are that dense.
I mean seriously. A sergeant of mine gave this little gem of a quote..
He said, "I don't commit crimes. So if someone is kicking down my door, I know its the bad guys." If your not committing serious crimes, you'll never have to worry about the cops entering your home, warrant or not.
People who have never been through the process of obtaining a warrant (search or arrest) have no idea the amount of probable cause you need to prove to get one. It amazes me how many people think that cops just randomly pick people to kick in their door and search their house.
To the few of you LEO's on here who have been contributing to this thread, job well done. :beer: However, Its unfortunate though that some people will never get it and will always think that today's police force is the Gestapo.. :nonono:
I can understand the reactions of the family. Our instincts are to protect family above all else. A father seeing his son tackled (especially when unexpected) would provoke some aggression the majority of the time.
Even when its a cop in a police uniform? Are you ****ing stupid? :dw:
Yes. No.
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Banned from posting here? For what?..
Dont answer that. I dont want to clutter this thread with an argument with you. Itll prove to be a waste of time anyways. An abomination.. :lol1:
No need to clutter.. No need for an argument.
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