Could the new S550 outperform Chevys new C7 for nearly half the cost?

[mustangletback]

The GT isn't going to rev like the Boss they announced it will have the old long runner manifold and the same redline. Like I said RPM does not mean much. RPM let's you compensate for the lack of displacement. The high rpm of the coyote counteracts the higher displacement of the LS3. An engine only needs to be revved high enough to hit it's target output. A higher redline does very little for speed vs a engine that makes the same power at a lower redline. The principal thing when it comes to road course racing is weight. That's how you go to a track day and see guy in 150 hp low revving Miata's murdering cars with much better higher revving engines. And besides all tracks are different. tracks with longer straight's always will favor a ZL1 vs a BOSS LS just cherry picking one lap time at one track doesn't tell the whole story.

its been said by FORD,that the gt will put up a quicker time around the track than a BOSS L.S.:whine:

 

[germeezy1]

remember,the zl1 was only i think 2 seconds faster than the BOSS 302.at leguna seca,the zl1 did 1:39.18,and the BOSS did it in 1:39.50.so again,i dont see the mustang having a problem with power to beat out the CRAPMARO.:banana:

Remember also that the 1LE with its 426 hp LS3 engine also laps quicker than the Boss 302. You also have to remember that the Camaro does that with a weight penalty which will be either eliminated or narrowed with the 6th gen Alpha based Camaro. The LT1 with an 8 speed 8L90 or 7 speed TR7070 in a lighter Alpha based Camaro will be able to match the S550 step for step.

I see that many are making this a Camaro vs Mustang story, and moving away from the original point of the thread. The Mustang will have its hands full with the Alpha based Gen 6 Camaro, and the Corvette is barely getting started. It like it has always been will be a step ahead, and a class above the Mustang.

 

[mustangletback]

Remember also that the 1LE with its 426 hp LS3 engine also laps quicker than the Boss 302. You also have to remember that the Camaro does that with a weight penalty which will be either eliminated or narrowed with the 6th gen Alpha based Camaro. The LT1 with an 8 speed 8L90 or 7 speed TR7070 in a lighter Alpha based Camaro will be able to match the S550 step for step.

I see that many are making this a Camaro vs Mustang story, and moving away from the original point of the thread. The Mustang will have its hands full with the Alpha based Gen 6 Camaro, and the Corvette is barely getting started. It like it has always been will be a step ahead, and a class above the Mustang.

yes that was at one track the 1le won at.the camaro is not a class above the mustang.i know what the threat says,and i dont think the new stang will beat the stingray.it might get close to it.

 

[germeezy1]

yes that was at one track the 1le won at.the camaro is not a class above the mustang.i know what the threat says,and i dont think the new stang will beat the stingray.it might get close to it.

I was talking about the Corvette being a class above...the Camaro is a pony car just like the Mustang is....

 

[mustangletback]

I was talking about the Corvette being a class above...the Camaro is a pony car just like the Mustang is....

my bad.:burnout:

 

[blackvette101]

its been said by FORD,that the gt will put up a quicker time around the track than a BOSS L.S.:whine:

Yes it said that the S550 mustang GT with performance pack had a targeted goal of providing lap times of the regular BOSS 302. You said

if that is true remember if they allow the gt to rev like the BOSS 302 with the right hp,the mustang will still come out on top.to back up my idea on that,at leguna seca a zl1 did a 1:39.18,and the BOSS 302 a 1:39.50.i know the BOSS was lighter than the zl1,but that high reving motor almost beat a car that has 580 vs its 444hp.

Talking about if they allow the GT to rev like the Boss. I said it would not rev like a boss nothing more nothing less. The S550 mustang may come out on top vs the 5th gen Camaro but nobody is talking about the 5th gen. The Boss 302 LS comes close to ZL1 performance because of its weight not it's redline. If the weight advantage disappears so will it's lap time advantage.

 

[mustangletback]

Yes it said that the S550 mustang GT with performance pack had a targeted goal of providing lap times of the regular BOSS 302. You said



Talking about if they allow the GT to rev like the Boss. I said it would not rev like a boss nothing more nothing less. The S550 mustang may come out on top vs the 5th gen Camaro but nobody is talking about the 5th gen. The Boss 302 LS comes close to ZL1 performance because of its weight not it's redline. If the weight advantage disappears so will it's lap time advantage.

i have already said that the BOSS didnt weigh as much as the zl1.:whine:

 

[Tbonez3858]

I definitely think things will swing back Camaros way. The LT1 is a monster and the alpha platform is going to be a great performance platform. There are also rumors magnetic suspension will be standard in a few years. If Chevy could actually design a decent looking car I might consider it. Everything they build (outside of the Vette) looks like the designers were trying to make an eagle out of metal. I simply won't buy one. I'm way past caring if my car is faster than the guy next to me at a red light so I don't really care if the Camaro is slightly faster.

I've read many rumors Ford will have a new engine in 2017 and I wish I had an inside source to see of it was worth waiting on...I guess you can wait on a car forever.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

Way too much fuss is being made of this nee LT1. It's not THAT much better than the LS3. It's a bump forward for sure, but it's only similar to the bump seen from LS2 to LS3. Its not even the jump seen from LS1 to LS2. The new 5.0 was just about of an equal match for the LS3, the revised 5.0 should better the current LS3 (in engine alone) in the camaro. The revised 5.0 may be a half step back (guessing) than the LT1, but when the LT1 finally does come out in the next gen camaro, an even more revised 5.0 (DI) should be able to atleast equal it. The 5.0 is fine and of no real concern going forward.

 

[13GT5.0]

I wish Ford would stop ****ing around and make a 5.8 "coyote" n/a, I love my 5.0 but a 5.8 dohc would bury the next camaro for sure.

 

[cobra916]

Way too much fuss is being made of this nee LT1. It's not THAT much better than the LS3. It's a bump forward for sure, but it's only similar to the bump seen from LS2 to LS3. Its not even the jump seen from LS1 to LS2. The new 5.0 was just about of an equal match for the LS3, the revised 5.0 should better the current LS3 (in engine alone) in the camaro. The revised 5.0 may be a half step back (guessing) than the LT1, but when the LT1 finally does come out in the next gen camaro, an even more revised 5.0 (DI) should be able to atleast equal it. The 5.0 is fine and of no real concern going forward.

delusional :beer: ..... its all about weight... only thing that is been holding chevy back.. gears might make up tq in theory... but topend id have my money on the car with more tq and less gear.. lt1 is far better then a ls3.. look up youtube vids.. stock c7s are beating full bolt on..cam only ls2s.. i believe was the vid i seen... we are in some trouble guys... i see 99 gt problems all over again!! :dw:

 

[cobra916]

2014 C7 Corvette battles modded C6 Corvette! - YouTube

intake exhaust looks like ls2 not sure vs stock c7

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

delusional :beer: ..... its all about weight... only thing that is been holding chevy back.. gears might make up tq in theory... but topend id have my money on the car with more tq and less gear.. lt1 is far better then a ls3.. look up youtube vids.. stock c7s are beating full bolt on..cam only ls2s.. i believe was the vid i seen... we are in some trouble guys... i see 99 gt problems all over again!! :dw:

Calm down chicken little, the sky is not falling!! LOL and "top end"? Are you talking about illegal street racing? If so, that has to be some of the dumbest **** you can do. Keep it at a track.

The LT1 IS NOT MAGICAL.

Lile I said, the current 5.0 is a great matchup with the LS3. I agree, the only reason the 5.0 mustang beats the LS3 camaro is due to weight. Otherwise, they are about as an even of a match you can get while doing it with two completely different approaches.

The LT1 is the next full step forward. Nothing more. The LT1 isnt even in the camaro yet. The revised 5.0, on the otherhand, seems to be a half step forward that will go into the mustang sooner. The 5.0 will again (likely) be revised (with DI, among other tweaks) within a year or two of the camaro finally getting the LT1, which nobody is even sure when exactly will occur either. That will bring it the next half step further, matching the LT1.

You are overrating the importance of lowend tq. These arent little wimpy V6's battling to get out of the hole. Believe me, my '03 Cobra made plenty of low end tq, but its not the end all. There's only so much you really need. I'll take the revs if it means sacrificing some low end tq.

Also, with the proper gearing (torque multiplication) matching the powerband capabilities of the extra revs, I would not be surprised if the 5.0 mustang makes MORE torque than the LS3 OR LT1 camaro. If I find the time, I'll do the math.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

I wish Ford would stop ****ing around and make a 5.8 "coyote" n/a, I love my 5.0 but a 5.8 dohc would bury the next camaro for sure.

Yes and no. Why settle for the 5.8? Ford should make some 5.0 DOHC heads for the 6.2 SOHC block.

 

[blackvette101]

Way too much fuss is being made of this nee LT1. It's not THAT much better than the LS3. It's a bump forward for sure, but it's only similar to the bump seen from LS2 to LS3. Its not even the jump seen from LS1 to LS2. The new 5.0 was just about of an equal match for the LS3, the revised 5.0 should better the current LS3 (in engine alone) in the camaro. The revised 5.0 may be a half step back (guessing) than the LT1, but when the LT1 finally does come out in the next gen camaro, an even more revised 5.0 (DI) should be able to atleast equal it. The 5.0 is fine and of no real concern going forward.

Maybe that's true if all you see is peak power. But if that's your only concern you may not know a whole lot about racing. The LT1 up to 5000 rpm keeps the same curve as the 7 liter LS7. I do agree with you however with DI the 5.0 will be a match for the LT1 just like the current coyote is a match for the LS3. The problem lies that until that rumored 2017 you have an engine that is half a step back in a car that no longer has a weight advantage. And even once the 5.0 gets DI you still have to worry about GM mid life engine cycle updates and competing on a level playing field without the advantage that we enjoy today that we have become accustomed too.

Calm down chicken little, the sky is not falling!! LOL and "top end"? Are you talking about illegal street racing? If so, that has to be some of the dumbest **** you can do. Keep it at a track.

The LT1 IS NOT MAGICAL.

Lile I said, the current 5.0 is a great matchup with the LS3. I agree, the only reason the 5.0 mustang beats the LS3 camaro is due to weight. Otherwise, they are about as an even of a match you can get while doing it with two completely different approaches.

The LT1 is the next full step forward. Nothing more. The LT1 isnt even in the camaro yet. The revised 5.0, on the otherhand, seems to be a half step forward that will go into the mustang sooner. The 5.0 will again (likely) be revised (with DI, among other tweaks) within a year or two of the camaro finally getting the LT1, which nobody is even sure when exactly will occur either. That will bring it the next half step further, matching the LT1.

You are overrating the importance of lowend tq. These arent little wimpy V6's battling to get out of the hole. Believe me, my '03 Cobra made plenty of low end tq, but its not the end all. There's only so much you really need. I'll take the revs if it means sacrificing some low end tq.

Also, with the proper gearing (torque multiplication) matching the powerband capabilities of the extra revs, I would not be surprised if the 5.0 mustang makes MORE torque than the LS3 OR LT1 camaro. If I find the time, I'll do the math.

Just a couple points the LT1 camaro is scheduled for 2016 MY it is known when it will come. Sorry man the 5.0 is not making more torque then the LT1 and maybe even the LS3. it just isn't happening with 5.0 liters natrually aspirated. the physics aren't their. It's down 75 torque on the LT1. to add that torque and maintain a 7500 rpm redline you would be adding 107.1 hp. Putting it well over 100 hp/liter. Which i believe we may see from a 5.2 liter PTWA coyote codenamed voodoo but not a mass production model.

Also their is another factor to low end off idle torque that most people don't realize. CAFE. The government is starting to really get involved in cars. By having an abundance of low end torque available they can run ridiculous overdrives like the new TR6070 has a .48. And let the car sip fuel. This preserves the models we want unmolested. Most of us do not care about the MPG of our cars but from 2016 on it will progressively become a bigger concern as people decide what we are allowed to have. Even the LS3 camaro had a ton of off idle torque you can literally cruise at 14-1500 rpm and still effectively drive in a heavier car. I've driven a lot of coyote's and they all needed to be above 2k rpm and even more so with a short runner manifold.

As far as racing the curve is huge. A peaky but high powerband will always get beat by a car with a flatter powerband but making the same power. Just because peak numbers are close does not mean average numbers are close.

I think the coyote will do just fine in the future but with it still being slightly behind GM engine wise in a car that no longer has a weight advantage and the gearing advantage is still up in the air. All i'm saying is that the gen 6 camaro will not be the punching bag laughing stock slow POS that the gen 5 is. And many mustang owners will write it off solely on the gen 5 reputation and their may be some butt hurt.

 

[thePill]

Ford doesn't need to beat the Corvette, it just needs to get really, really close. This puts the Camaro in a default second. The Camaro will never be equal to the Corvette, Mustang can get close. It's forcing Team Camaro to shoot for an impossible gap, between Stingray Z51 and GT R Package.

 

[mustangletback]

Ford doesn't need to beat the Corvette, it just needs to get really, really close. This puts the Camaro in a default second. The Camaro will never be equal to the Corvette, Mustang can get close. It's forcing Team Camaro to shoot for an impossible gap, between Stingray Z51 and GT R Package.

very well said.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

Maybe that's true if all you see is peak power. But if that's your only concern you may not know a whole lot about racing. The LT1 up to 5000 rpm keeps the same curve as the 7 liter LS7. I do agree with you however with DI the 5.0 will be a match for the LT1 just like the current coyote is a match for the LS3. The problem lies that until that rumored 2017 you have an engine that is half a step back in a car that no longer has a weight advantage. And even once the 5.0 gets DI you still have to worry about GM mid life engine cycle updates and competing on a level playing field without the advantage that we enjoy today that we have become accustomed too.




Just a couple points the LT1 camaro is scheduled for 2016 MY it is known when it will come. Sorry man the 5.0 is not making more torque then the LT1 and maybe even the LS3. it just isn't happening with 5.0 liters natrually aspirated. the physics aren't their. It's down 75 torque on the LT1. to add that torque and maintain a 7500 rpm redline you would be adding 107.1 hp. Putting it well over 100 hp/liter. Which i believe we may see from a 5.2 liter PTWA coyote codenamed voodoo but not a mass production model.

Also their is another factor to low end off idle torque that most people don't realize. CAFE. The government is starting to really get involved in cars. By having an abundance of low end torque available they can run ridiculous overdrives like the new TR6070 has a .48. And let the car sip fuel. This preserves the models we want unmolested. Most of us do not care about the MPG of our cars but from 2016 on it will progressively become a bigger concern as people decide what we are allowed to have. Even the LS3 camaro had a ton of off idle torque you can literally cruise at 14-1500 rpm and still effectively drive in a heavier car. I've driven a lot of coyote's and they all needed to be above 2k rpm and even more so with a short runner manifold.

As far as racing the curve is huge. A peaky but high powerband will always get beat by a car with a flatter powerband but making the same power. Just because peak numbers are close does not mean average numbers are close.

I think the coyote will do just fine in the future but with it still being slightly behind GM engine wise in a car that no longer has a weight advantage and the gearing advantage is still up in the air. All i'm saying is that the gen 6 camaro will not be the punching bag laughing stock slow POS that the gen 5 is. And many mustang owners will write it off solely on the gen 5 reputation and their may be some butt hurt.

Obviously you did not read my post completely or perhaps comprehend the added advantage of higher revs when it comes to torque multiplication through the gears.

I never once said the 5.0 will match the LS3/LT1 in torque measured out of the engine, but the added revs allow more aggressive (MORE TORQUE MULTIPLICATION) gearing, resulting in more real torque felt at the pavement.

And lugging an engine does not equal better driving characteristics, efficiency, or better fuel mileage than one driving a few revs higher. Especially one that is geared properly.

I'm not saying the new mustang is going to wipe the floor with the new camaro. I'm saying that the new mustang will remain better than the current camaro, and be EVENLY matched against the new (to be announced) camaro within a year or two after its release.

 

[Tbonez3858]

Ford doesn't need to beat the Corvette, it just needs to get really, really close. This puts the Camaro in a default second. The Camaro will never be equal to the Corvette, Mustang can get close. It's forcing Team Camaro to shoot for an impossible gap, between Stingray Z51 and GT R Package.

I'm assuming that you are referencing a GT500 type of mustang. I just don't see the 5.0 coming in second after Vette to an LT1 on a lower weight chassis. I think Ford has its work cut out for it to grab that second spot. I hope they are up to it because it will be awful to be beaten by that ugly monstrosity that they are sure to produce.

 

[Tbonez3858]

Obviously you did not read my post completely or perhaps comprehend the added advantage of higher revs when it comes to torque multiplication through the gears.

I never once said the 5.0 will match the LS3/LT1 in torque measured out of the engine, but the added revs allow more aggressive (MORE TORQUE MULTIPLICATION) gearing, resulting in more real torque felt at the pavement.

And lugging an engine does not equal better driving characteristics, efficiency, or better fuel mileage than one driving a few revs higher. Especially one that is geared properly.

I'm not saying the new mustang is going to wipe the floor with the new camaro. I'm saying that the new mustang will remain better than the current camaro, and be EVENLY matched against the new (to be announced) camaro within a year or two after its release.

Chevy has a full year and a year and a half to plan on crushing the Mustang. I'm NO Chevy guy but isnt the head engineer of Chevy on record as saying that he will fight for every HP and that Chevy won't be beat in the area of performance. I expect Chevy to bump the Vettes HP and there will be plenty of room for them to come out with a Monster Camaro. I won't buy one regardless but let's not be delusional. Chevy is gunning for Ford and they have the engine and chassis to do it...The government loaned them plenty of money to set them up fr success. Thats part of the reason I won't even think about owning one.

Remember - This too shall pass which makes a happy man sad and a sad man happy.