Could the new S550 outperform Chevys new C7 for nearly half the cost?

[Tbonez3858]

Ok I admit, I'm wrong. The GT will compete at a high level in all facets directly with the C7, its closest obvious competitor. I was blinded by common sense and logic in the past, but have now come to grips with this flawed way of thinking and now see the light. Please forgive me.

If you read my post, I agreed with all his points. Except for the C7 being a "game changer". He may have been able to pursuade me on some lost obscure facts about the C7 that make it a "game changer", but that never came to fruition.

I'm your Huckleberry Finn...Lets start with the fact that every car review typically trashes any American car. Top Gear called the car "stunning and amazing". Car and Driver said that it can compete with the worlds HIGHEST regarded sports cars..Now on to the tech...

Aluminum frame (stiff as stuffings)
Incredible tech package
Incredible interior styling (opinion based)
Beast mode engine
Stopping on par with ZR1 (which has super car like braking)
Excellent transmission
Z06 type performance stats
Up to 29mpg with VD
Shares two parts with the last model (How many does the Mustang have?)

All for 55k...Lets say that again 55k. A car that bumps up against exotics for 55k. What are you looking for as a game changer? A car that has a plasma rocket for an engine, F1 suspension that gets 100mpg? We can argue "game changer" all day long because in your mind a game changer could represent anything. Your standards for game changer may be so high that there really is no such things as a game changer. We do know that the industry is raving about the car (including the non American auto industry) and to me that's CLEAR evidence that the car is a game changer.

What does Ford offer for 55k that is even in the same planetary system? Please don't say the GT500 because that's another entire argument that will stop quickly at the brakes and move into virtually every other area of the car. (pun intended).

Again I'm not a Chevy fan but if anyone is even partially honest with themselves the Stingray is an evolution for cars in its price range. It IS a game changer unless you are blinded by loyalty or unless your definition of game changer is so ridiculous that its impossible to change the game. The odds that we are going to compare the Mustang and the Vette when its all said and done will be close to zero. A car that was developed to meet an entry requirement of 24k vs 55k is virtually GUARANTEED to have short comings that will never allow for an apples to apples comparisson. Thats financial logic that all our dreaming and wishing wont get around...Mustang is a money maker for Ford because of the lower capacity Mustang. They have to develop the car and the financials around the lowest common denominator. Vette is meant to pull people into the show room as their technology show case. The Vette profit margin, if its there, is razor thin. Two completely different tiers of cars and approaches....


I do own a Chevy (wife's car) and every time I drive it I wish she had of bought a Ford. I can assure you I'm not a Chevy fan in disguise on here to pester or generally offend. Logic is logic and facts are facts, however.

 

[Fenixfire]

Remember also that the 1LE with its 426 hp LS3 engine also laps quicker than the Boss 302. You also have to remember that the Camaro does that with a weight penalty which will be either eliminated or narrowed with the 6th gen Alpha based Camaro. The LT1 with an 8 speed 8L90 or 7 speed TR7070 in a lighter Alpha based Camaro will be able to match the S550 step for step.

I see that many are making this a Camaro vs Mustang story, and moving away from the original point of the thread. The Mustang will have its hands full with the Alpha based Gen 6 Camaro, and the Corvette is barely getting started. It like it has always been will be a step ahead, and a class above the Mustang.

One thing you forget is that the boss was doing all of this with a straight axle......which makes it MORE impressive than the 1LE. If Ford could make the boss handle the way it did with the straight axle then imagine what they will be able to do with an IRS. Ford knows how to make a car handle well and if they want to beat an alpha based camaro with magnetic suspension around a track they will......

Also, I know you are a GM boy, but the hard truth is that modulars have always had better overall powerbands than pushrods do. Look at the amsoil engine masters challenge and that is undeniable proof of this. Its the only argument I need. Ford makes just as much power out of the 5.0 as a 6.2L LS3 and its not because of an RPM advantage. The 5.0 doesnt even rev that much higher than the LS3 does. 4 valve modulars have always had superior efficiency and flow which is why they make far more power per liter than pushrods. GM doesnt make a 5.0 liter pushrod for a reason.......because it would not be able to compete in any way, shape or form. You know this to be true.

 

[Fenixfire]

Maybe that's true if all you see is peak power. But if that's your only concern you may not know a whole lot about racing. The LT1 up to 5000 rpm keeps the same curve as the 7 liter LS7. I do agree with you however with DI the 5.0 will be a match for the LT1 just like the current coyote is a match for the LS3. The problem lies that until that rumored 2017 you have an engine that is half a step back in a car that no longer has a weight advantage. And even once the 5.0 gets DI you still have to worry about GM mid life engine cycle updates and competing on a level playing field without the advantage that we enjoy today that we have become accustomed too.




Just a couple points the LT1 camaro is scheduled for 2016 MY it is known when it will come. Sorry man the 5.0 is not making more torque then the LT1 and maybe even the LS3. it just isn't happening with 5.0 liters natrually aspirated. the physics aren't their. It's down 75 torque on the LT1. to add that torque and maintain a 7500 rpm redline you would be adding 107.1 hp. Putting it well over 100 hp/liter. Which i believe we may see from a 5.2 liter PTWA coyote codenamed voodoo but not a mass production model.

Also their is another factor to low end off idle torque that most people don't realize. CAFE. The government is starting to really get involved in cars. By having an abundance of low end torque available they can run ridiculous overdrives like the new TR6070 has a .48. And let the car sip fuel. This preserves the models we want unmolested. Most of us do not care about the MPG of our cars but from 2016 on it will progressively become a bigger concern as people decide what we are allowed to have. Even the LS3 camaro had a ton of off idle torque you can literally cruise at 14-1500 rpm and still effectively drive in a heavier car. I've driven a lot of coyote's and they all needed to be above 2k rpm and even more so with a short runner manifold.

As far as racing the curve is huge. A peaky but high powerband will always get beat by a car with a flatter powerband but making the same power. Just because peak numbers are close does not mean average numbers are close.

I think the coyote will do just fine in the future but with it still being slightly behind GM engine wise in a car that no longer has a weight advantage and the gearing advantage is still up in the air. All i'm saying is that the gen 6 camaro will not be the punching bag laughing stock slow POS that the gen 5 is. And many mustang owners will write it off solely on the gen 5 reputation and their may be some butt hurt.

Here is the problem with torque.........its great, but you only need so much to get weight moving. After a certain point torque becomes a detriment to traction. Even if the 2015 5.0 doesnt make as much power as the LT1 does already it will be making as much if not more within 1 or two model years. With the revisions that Ford has announced about the 5.0 I can guarantee its not making 420 hp or even 430 hp.......At the very least it will be on par with the 444 hp the boss makes which already isnt far behind an LT1.

 

[Voltwings]

When the mustang was first being announced i believed Ford was targeting the vette. The initla "down 400 lbs, 475 hp" claims would have made it a vette killer, but as more information on both cars is released i think it was a fairy tale.

The C7 is a monster by all means, a car that matches the outgoing Z06 in powerband up to 5000 rpms, is 20% stiffer than the outgoing model, and weighs less than the stang has the favor hands down.

How well we're looking to compete is up in the air, i remember when the civic guys were happy the new Mugen SI ran just over 2 minutes slower than an Audi r8 on the nurnburg... terrible as that may be, thats the bench mark and they were "happy" with it. What exactly is ours?

 

[Fenixfire]

I'm your Huckleberry Finn...Lets start with the fact that every car review typically trashes any American car. Top Gear called the car "stunning and amazing". Car and Driver said that it can compete with the worlds HIGHEST regarded sports cars..Now on to the tech...

Aluminum frame (stiff as stuffings)
Incredible tech package
Incredible interior styling (opinion based)
Beast mode engine
Stopping on par with ZR1 (which has super car like braking)
Excellent transmission
Z06 type performance stats
Up to 29mpg with VD
Shares two parts with the last model (How many does the Mustang have?)

All for 55k...Lets say that again 55k. A car that bumps up against exotics for 55k. What are you looking for as a game changer? A car that has a plasma rocket for an engine, F1 suspension that gets 100mpg? We can argue "game changer" all day long because in your mind a game changer could represent anything. Your standards for game changer may be so high that there really is no such things as a game changer. We do know that the industry is raving about the car (including the non American auto industry) and to me that's CLEAR evidence that the car is a game changer.

What does Ford offer for 55k that is even in the same planetary system? Please don't say the GT500 because that's another entire argument that will stop quickly at the brakes and move into virtually every other area of the car. (pun intended).

Again I'm not a Chevy fan but if anyone is even partially honest with themselves the Stingray is an evolution for cars in its price range. It IS a game changer unless you are blinded by loyalty or unless your definition of game changer is so ridiculous that its impossible to change the game. The odds that we are going to compare the Mustang and the Vette when its all said and done will be close to zero. A car that was developed to meet an entry requirement of 24k vs 55k is virtually GUARANTEED to have short comings that will never allow for an apples to apples comparisson. Thats financial logic that all our dreaming and wishing wont get around...Mustang is a money maker for Ford because of the lower capacity Mustang. They have to develop the car and the financials around the lowest common denominator. Vette is meant to pull people into the show room as their technology show case. The Vette profit margin, if its there, is razor thin. Two completely different tiers of cars and approaches....


I do own a Chevy (wife's car) and every time I drive it I wish she had of bought a Ford. I can assure you I'm not a Chevy fan in disguise on here to pester or generally offend. Logic is logic and facts are facts, however.

I completely agree that the C7 is a very impressive car and I think GM did a fantastic job with it. I even like the looks save for the camaro-esque rear end. In the end, Ford doesnt really have to make the mustang on par with the C7, but if they can get close to it then they can virtually eliminate the camaro as a performance contender with the mustang. If I know this, Ford most definitely knows it. Whether that will happen or not just remains to be seen. If this became the case then the one advantage the camaro might have is price. It would likely be cheaper than a mustang at all trim levels, but probably not by much.

 

[blackvette101]

Here is the problem with torque.........its great, but you only need so much to get weight moving. After a certain point torque becomes a detriment to traction. Even if the 2015 5.0 doesnt make as much power as the LT1 does already it will be making as much if not more within 1 or two model years. With the revisions that Ford has announced about the 5.0 I can guarantee its not making 420 hp or even 430 hp.......At the very least it will be on par with the 444 hp the boss makes which already isnt far behind an LT1.

Maybe at higher torque levels or with older cars. But with modern cars on modern tires (especially with chevy's new e-diff that handles the LT1 torque just fine) if you think having an extra 60-70 torque in the 400-500 tq range will be a detriment your making yourself feel better about not having that torque.

I didn't know you could guarantee power numbers maybe the magazine's should pay you to know the numbers instead of waiting for ford. The Boss isn't handicapped by an inferior manifold, 7k redline and charge motion plates. NA Engine's have a tendency not to make much power past a restriction point no matter how much flow you add after that point. Engines 101. You can guarantee crap all you want but almost everything ford did to the car was to boost torque. Which I guess doesn't matter much according to you. I guess if they didn't NEED LT1 like torque numbers they added the charge motion plates just to throw in some extra cost onto the car right... Shit 390 get's the car moving why add anymore. The funny thing is if a mustang engine made more torque then a chevy engine (AKA the SVT cobra days when everybody was all into having as much torque as possible because we made more then the LS1) all the fanboys would be all over having the most torquey engine.

Everyone here loves the S550 but if some of you want to underestimate the competition by ignoring reality you are going to have a lot of butt hurt threads showing up on the forum.

 

[germeezy1]

When the mustang was first being announced i believed Ford was targeting the vette. The initla "down 400 lbs, 475 hp" claims would have made it a vette killer, but as more information on both cars is released i think it was a fairy tale.

The C7 is a monster by all means, a car that matches the outgoing Z06 in powerband up to 5000 rpms, is 20% stiffer than the outgoing model, and weighs less than the stang has the favor hands down.

How well we're looking to compete is up in the air, i remember when the civic guys were happy the new Mugen SI ran just over 2 minutes slower than an Audi r8 on the nurnburg... terrible as that may be, thats the bench mark and they were "happy" with it. What exactly is ours?

At this point I would be pleasantly surprised if any weight savings came to fruition, and tickled pink if it was over 100 lbs.

One thing you forget is that the boss was doing all of this with a straight axle......which makes it MORE impressive than the 1LE. If Ford could make the boss handle the way it did with the straight axle then imagine what they will be able to do with an IRS. Ford knows how to make a car handle well and if they want to beat an alpha based camaro with magnetic suspension around a track they will......

Also, I know you are a GM boy, but the hard truth is that modulars have always had better overall powerbands than pushrods do. Look at the amsoil engine masters challenge and that is undeniable proof of this. Its the only argument I need. Ford makes just as much power out of the 5.0 as a 6.2L LS3 and its not because of an RPM advantage. The 5.0 doesnt even rev that much higher than the LS3 does. 4 valve modulars have always had superior efficiency and flow which is why they make far more power per liter than pushrods. GM doesnt make a 5.0 liter pushrod for a reason.......because it would not be able to compete in any way, shape or form. You know this to be true.

I don't own a GM product....at all......but own two Ford products....I am not a GM boy....I am a CAR ENTHUSIAST....which means not a Ford Mustang only enthusiast. Did you just use the Amsoil engine master challenge which was a focus on engines alone ( not inside of actual cars ) to prove your point about modulars?

Your post does not take into account things that they should teach in Auto Shop 101, and quite frankly I can't begin to answer how many things are wrong with what you said.

HP per liter is ricer math, and should only be used as a reference in displacement limited classes. The bottom line is tha the LSx , and LTx engines offer more cubic inches for no more physical size and/ or weight which is never a bad thing to real car enthusiasts.

I have owned Modular, and LSx cars so I know first hand that modular engines do not have a better powerband.

 

[germeezy1]

I'm your Huckleberry Finn...Lets start with the fact that every car review typically trashes any American car. Top Gear called the car "stunning and amazing". Car and Driver said that it can compete with the worlds HIGHEST regarded sports cars..Now on to the tech...

Aluminum frame (stiff as stuffings)
Incredible tech package
Incredible interior styling (opinion based)
Beast mode engine
Stopping on par with ZR1 (which has super car like braking)
Excellent transmission
Z06 type performance stats
Up to 29mpg with VD
Shares two parts with the last model (How many does the Mustang have?)

All for 55k...Lets say that again 55k. A car that bumps up against exotics for 55k. What are you looking for as a game changer? A car that has a plasma rocket for an engine, F1 suspension that gets 100mpg? We can argue "game changer" all day long because in your mind a game changer could represent anything. Your standards for game changer may be so high that there really is no such things as a game changer. We do know that the industry is raving about the car (including the non American auto industry) and to me that's CLEAR evidence that the car is a game changer.

What does Ford offer for 55k that is even in the same planetary system? Please don't say the GT500 because that's another entire argument that will stop quickly at the brakes and move into virtually every other area of the car. (pun intended).

Again I'm not a Chevy fan but if anyone is even partially honest with themselves the Stingray is an evolution for cars in its price range. It IS a game changer unless you are blinded by loyalty or unless your definition of game changer is so ridiculous that its impossible to change the game. The odds that we are going to compare the Mustang and the Vette when its all said and done will be close to zero. A car that was developed to meet an entry requirement of 24k vs 55k is virtually GUARANTEED to have short comings that will never allow for an apples to apples comparisson. Thats financial logic that all our dreaming and wishing wont get around...Mustang is a money maker for Ford because of the lower capacity Mustang. They have to develop the car and the financials around the lowest common denominator. Vette is meant to pull people into the show room as their technology show case. The Vette profit margin, if its there, is razor thin. Two completely different tiers of cars and approaches....


I do own a Chevy (wife's car) and every time I drive it I wish she had of bought a Ford. I can assure you I'm not a Chevy fan in disguise on here to pester or generally offend. Logic is logic and facts are facts, however.

Someone get this man a beer....finally someone who actually gets it...

:beer::beer:

 

[germeezy1]

Maybe at higher torque levels or with older cars. But with modern cars on modern tires (especially with chevy's new e-diff that handles the LT1 torque just fine) if you think having an extra 60-70 torque in the 400-500 tq range will be a detriment your making yourself feel better.

I didn't know you could guarantee power numbers maybe the magazine's should pay you to know the numbers instead of waiting for ford. The Boss isn't handicapped by an inferior manifold, 7k redline and charge motion plates. NA Engine's have a tendency not to make much power past a restriction point no matter how much flow you add after that point. You can guarantee crap all you want but almost everything ford did to the car was to boost torque. Which I guess doesn't matter much according to you. I guess if they didn't need LT1 like torque numbers they added the charge motion plates just to throw in some extra cost onto the car right...

Everyone here loves the S550 but if some of you want to underestimate the competition by ignoring reality you are going to have a lot of butt hurt threads showing up on the forum.

Whenever someone says that the new S550's 5.0 will make 500 hp or that they expect it to exceed the Boss for power easily I file them in the no clude about engines category. For those of us who do know engines I said when I first saw the specs that the improvements mainly appeared to be for powerband improvements not for peak power. But why would Ford improve the powerband on the 5.0 if its already better than the LT1?

 

[blackvette101]

Whenever someone says that the new S550's 5.0 will make 500 hp or that they expect it to exceed the Boss for power easily I file them in the no clude about engines category. For those of us who do know engines I said when I first saw the specs that the improvements mainly appeared to be for powerband improvements not for peak power. But why would Ford improve the powerband on the 5.0 if its already better than the LT1?

exactly they see bigger cams/better heads = mooooorrrreee pooowwwaaa. Nobody realizes it is breathing through the same manifold that was a BIG restriction with smaller cams/worse heads. And now it's further limited by charge motion plates. Not to mention that if you look at the Boss 302 engine they seem to be exhaust restricted too at that power level.

It's the same old story everybody races on peak numbers. Torque doesn't matter a whole lot unless your engine of choice makes more torque then its freakin awesome :lol1: Ford specifically went out of their way to handicap high rpm airflow to boost down low torque even though it doesn't matter much.

The new 5.0 will have a substantially better power band with more torque and power under the curve. Because that's what people like even if they do not know it. It will be better in every way and I believe with a manifold swap it will be a true contender. But without more displacement AND Direct injection it will always require more gear to keep pace in a car of equal weight. Which may not always be there depending on the new tranny's coming out. (especially since GM/FORD are in together on the next generation of 10 speed tranny's) and with fuel economy standards rising running a lot of gear may become problematic.

The S550 will have a hard enough time with an alpha based Camaro to worry about the C7. The pig that was the gen 5 is gone.

 

[blackvette101]

I think a lot of people are going to be in for a huge surprise when the new camaro comes out on the alpha platform and its weight is maybe a 100 lbs less. The current ATS with the 4 cylinder comes in at 3400+ lbs. So you think slapping a V8 and appropriate drivetrain components to take that kind of horsepower is going to not add any weight? I'm guessing that the new camaro will come in at about a 100 lbs more than the current mustang. They're not going to use the same weight saving materials as in the ATS.

2014 Cadillac CTS Sedan Photos and Info – News – Car and Driver

By switching to the alpha platform the same car with the same engine lost 389 pounds.

Cadillac News - United States - ATS

The turbo RWD ATS is 3400 pounds. You know the weight difference between a dressed LNF engine with piping vs a V8. It's less then 50 punds. Pushrod engine's weigh much less for their displacement. Not to mention your comparing a luxury sedan to a muscle car which will not have the same weight penalties a luxury car has.

Their was a big feud at GM with many thinking the Alpha was to weak for a V8. It is a light platform. Light enough to the point where strength may be a concern. I can't speak on the strength of the platform. But it is clear as day it is a light SOB.

 

[germeezy1]

2014 Cadillac CTS Sedan Photos and Info – News – Car and Driver

By switching to the alpha platform the same car with the same engine lost 389 pounds.

Cadillac News - United States - ATS

The turbo RWD ATS is 3400 pounds. You know the weight difference between a dressed LNF engine with piping vs a V8. It's less then 50 punds. Pushrod engine's weigh much less for their displacement. Not to mention your comparing a luxury sedan to a muscle car which will not have the same weight penalties a luxury car has.

Their was a big feud at GM with many thinking the Alpha was to weak for a V8. It is a light platform. Light enough to the point where strength may be a concern. I can't speak on the strength of the platform. But it is clear as day it is a light SOB.

Finally someone who can actually participate in tech based discussions without seeing everything through blue oval glasses. The Camaro will not have a aluminum intensive suspension like the ATS does but it will require less sound deadening , and will also have less luxury equipment.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

I'm your Huckleberry Finn...Lets start with the fact that every car review typically trashes any American car. Top Gear called the car "stunning and amazing". Car and Driver said that it can compete with the worlds HIGHEST regarded sports cars..Now on to the tech...

Aluminum frame (stiff as stuffings)
Incredible tech package
Incredible interior styling (opinion based)
Beast mode engine
Stopping on par with ZR1 (which has super car like braking)
Excellent transmission
Z06 type performance stats
Up to 29mpg with VD
Shares two parts with the last model (How many does the Mustang have?)

All for 55k...Lets say that again 55k. A car that bumps up against exotics for 55k. What are you looking for as a game changer? A car that has a plasma rocket for an engine, F1 suspension that gets 100mpg? We can argue "game changer" all day long because in your mind a game changer could represent anything. Your standards for game changer may be so high that there really is no such things as a game changer. We do know that the industry is raving about the car (including the non American auto industry) and to me that's CLEAR evidence that the car is a game changer.

What does Ford offer for 55k that is even in the same planetary system? Please don't say the GT500 because that's another entire argument that will stop quickly at the brakes and move into virtually every other area of the car. (pun intended).

Again I'm not a Chevy fan but if anyone is even partially honest with themselves the Stingray is an evolution for cars in its price range. It IS a game changer unless you are blinded by loyalty or unless your definition of game changer is so ridiculous that its impossible to change the game. The odds that we are going to compare the Mustang and the Vette when its all said and done will be close to zero. A car that was developed to meet an entry requirement of 24k vs 55k is virtually GUARANTEED to have short comings that will never allow for an apples to apples comparisson. Thats financial logic that all our dreaming and wishing wont get around...Mustang is a money maker for Ford because of the lower capacity Mustang. They have to develop the car and the financials around the lowest common denominator. Vette is meant to pull people into the show room as their technology show case. The Vette profit margin, if its there, is razor thin. Two completely different tiers of cars and approaches....


I do own a Chevy (wife's car) and every time I drive it I wish she had of bought a Ford. I can assure you I'm not a Chevy fan in disguise on here to pester or generally offend. Logic is logic and facts are facts, however.

If you've read my posts you would see that I've agreed with you. I've said it previously that the Mustang will not be competetive with the C7. A high end specialty mustang might be a able to compete with it in a few facets, but that's it.

It's an awesome car, I've said that too. If I could justify owning one I would, I just don't have the space for that many cars. But it's definately no game changer. Corvettes have always competed well with exotics. That has always been their thing, they compete with exotics at a fraction of the cost. But I bet people who buy exotics still won't buy it. I have a friend who've I tried to convince to buy one, but he won't. He's set on an R8 or the new BMW (i8?) set to come out.

 

[germeezy1]

The Corvette has always had amazing performance but previous iterations always had a but or an asterisk attached to them. With the C4 it had amazing handling numbers but the ride left much to be desired, and the structure was not solid. The C5 improved the structure, and the ride but was often criticized for its lackluster interior , and lack of steering feel.

The C6 rode better than the C5 but it was often criticized for handling at the limit that made it somewhat of a steep learning curve, and steering feel that still was not perfect until later iterations of the C6. The last C6 variants had improved on those things, and added PTM to help with at the limit handling. The last problem with the C6 was the interior, and the feeling of quality.

The C7 brings a whole new level of performance, and it has been made accessible to those lacking talent while still remaining exceptional for those with a lot more talent. It has changed the game because nothing on EARTH offers this complete of a package with no asterisks or obvious drawbacks for anything approaching the price of a C7.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

The Corvette has always had amazing performance but previous iterations always had a but or an asterisk attached to them. With the C4 it had amazing handling numbers but the ride left much to be desired, and the structure was not solid. The C5 improved the structure, and the ride but was often criticized for its lackluster interior , and lack of steering feel.

The C6 rode better than the C5 but it was often criticized for handling at the limit that made it somewhat of a steep learning curve, and steering feel that still was not perfect until later iterations of the C6. The last C6 variants had improved on those things, and added PTM to help with at the limit handling. The last problem with the C6 was the interior, and the feeling of quality.

The C7 brings a whole new level of performance, and it has been made accessible to those lacking talent while still remaining exceptional for those with a lot more talent. It has changed the game because nothing on EARTH offers this complete of a package with no asterisks or obvious drawbacks for anything approaching the price of a C7.

thats the problem though (a good problem). It has ALWAYS had all that, it's always been the complete package in it's price range (and above) for sports cars. That's not new or game changing, the C7 is just the next evolutionary step.

The C7 is being highly touted (as it should, most cars that move on to their next generation are), but it's just the next step forward.

 

[khell]

2014 Cadillac CTS Sedan Photos and Info – News – Car and Driver

By switching to the alpha platform the same car with the same engine lost 389 pounds.

Cadillac News - United States - ATS

The turbo RWD ATS is 3400 pounds. You know the weight difference between a dressed LNF engine with piping vs a V8. It's less then 50 punds. Pushrod engine's weigh much less for their displacement. Not to mention your comparing a luxury sedan to a muscle car which will not have the same weight penalties a luxury car has.

Their was a big feud at GM with many thinking the Alpha was to weak for a V8. It is a light platform. Light enough to the point where strength may be a concern. I can't speak on the strength of the platform. But it is clear as day it is a light SOB.

The new CTS lost 270 lbs by going to the alpha platform and switching over to the 4 cylinder motor. Don't get me wrong the weight is impressive, but have you seen how much the CTS Vsport weighs? Its back up to 4000 lbs almost.

As for the LNF engine it comes in at around what 350 lbs? Right now the LT1 comes in at 500+ lbs. Definitely not just 50 lbs. Now add up the difference in the other drivetrain components weight to handle that massive 460 tq and ill guess that's another couple hundred lbs. Like I said im betting the new Camaro comes in at around 3700+ lbs in SS form.

 

[htk084]

I was just thinking today how I missed the powerband on my bolt on ls2 gto.

If the styling in the camaro is decent I might have to look into it in the future because believe it has a FAR superior powertrain. C6 Z06 like torque and a good manual transmission compared to the mustang.

 

[darreng505]

I'm your Huckleberry Finn...Lets start with the fact that every car review typically trashes any American car. Top Gear called the car "stunning and amazing". Car and Driver said that it can compete with the worlds HIGHEST regarded sports cars..Now on to the tech...

Aluminum frame (stiff as stuffings)
Incredible tech package
Incredible interior styling (opinion based)
Beast mode engine
Stopping on par with ZR1 (which has super car like braking)
Excellent transmission
Z06 type performance stats
Up to 29mpg with VD
Shares two parts with the last model (How many does the Mustang have?)

All for 55k...Lets say that again 55k. A car that bumps up against exotics for 55k. What are you looking for as a game changer? A car that has a plasma rocket for an engine, F1 suspension that gets 100mpg? We can argue "game changer" all day long because in your mind a game changer could represent anything. Your standards for game changer may be so high that there really is no such things as a game changer. We do know that the industry is raving about the car (including the non American auto industry) and to me that's CLEAR evidence that the car is a game changer.

What does Ford offer for 55k that is even in the same planetary system? Please don't say the GT500 because that's another entire argument that will stop quickly at the brakes and move into virtually every other area of the car. (pun intended).

Again I'm not a Chevy fan but if anyone is even partially honest with themselves the Stingray is an evolution for cars in its price range. It IS a game changer unless you are blinded by loyalty or unless your definition of game changer is so ridiculous that its impossible to change the game. The odds that we are going to compare the Mustang and the Vette when its all said and done will be close to zero. A car that was developed to meet an entry requirement of 24k vs 55k is virtually GUARANTEED to have short comings that will never allow for an apples to apples comparisson. Thats financial logic that all our dreaming and wishing wont get around...Mustang is a money maker for Ford because of the lower capacity Mustang. They have to develop the car and the financials around the lowest common denominator. Vette is meant to pull people into the show room as their technology show case. The Vette profit margin, if its there, is razor thin. Two completely different tiers of cars and approaches....


I do own a Chevy (wife's car) and every time I drive it I wish she had of bought a Ford. I can assure you I'm not a Chevy fan in disguise on here to pester or generally offend. Logic is logic and facts are facts, however.

Agree.

And FWIW, one of the problems for Ford is that they've painted themselves into a "pony car" corner. The C7 is not a pony car. It's far above that standard (and I'm not a Chevy fan).
Chevy clearly threw down the gauntlet in the pony car wars with the Z/28 because they can cannibalize parts off their other-planetary platforms (ZR1, C7, etc.)

Ford has NOTHING in the C7/Z28 range right now. They have nothing to compete with corvettes directly. Never have. You'd think they would introduce a platform that is designed to compete at that level. A totally different car. But no.
All we get is a watered down, Japanese looking Fustang with a 4 banger. They are gambling on the odd pairing of muscle car with good gas mileage. In my mind those two things are antithetical. That's like trying to sell me a 1.0 liter duelly pickup with a 10 gallon tank claiming that it can haul stuff (your dog), gets good mileage and is easy on the wallet. Those qualities rob from the other and makes no sense. There's no free lunch and you can't trick people with that logic Ford. Good luck with that.

 

[THE_EVIL_TW1N]

Agree.

And FWIW, one of the problems for Ford is that they've painted themselves into a "pony car" corner. The C7 is not a pony car. It's far above that standard (and I'm not a Chevy fan).
Chevy clearly threw down the gauntlet in the pony car wars with the Z/28 because they can cannibalize parts off their other-planetary platforms (ZR1, C7, etc.)

Ford has NOTHING in the C7/Z28 range right now. They have nothing to compete with corvettes directly. Never have. You'd think they would introduce a platform that is designed to compete at that level. A totally different car. But no.
All we get is a watered down, Japanese looking Fustang with a 4 banger. They are gambling on the odd pairing of muscle car with good gas mileage. In my mind those two things are antithetical. That's like trying to sell me a 1.0 liter duelly pickup with a 10 gallon tank claiming that it can haul stuff (your dog), gets good mileage and is easy on the wallet. Those qualities rob from the other and makes no sense. There's no free lunch and you can't trick people with that logic Ford. Good luck with that.

There is nothing wrong with the 4cyl model, hopefully it replaces the V6 in time. It's not like the V6 is sacred or anything.

Ford doesn't have a competitor to the C7 because there is no business case for Ford to do it.

 

[darreng505]

Is there a business case for a low powered muscle car?
Its an oxymoron. As to your comment about no business case to compete with corvette. Thats stupid. You could say that about any make or model. Theres always competition and that means there's a market.