Kennebell throttle Body issues

[Luillo69]

I have a 4.2. Personally, I would not go with any other throttle body. This opinion holds because I got it to run like stock.

Willie

Nice. I was wondering if I could adjust the screw in the TB but I am kind of worry about the warning to not touch it. The car is running fine but I need to test it in more situations and run it hard to see if it does it again.

Right now I just looked over the ngauge and the voltage is at .57 is super hard to hit the .59

Every time I tight the screw it move slightly so .57 was the best I could do. Also that TPS looks to have internal play, like is not solid or something like that


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[Luillo69]

I have a 4.2. Personally, I would not go with any other throttle body. This opinion holds because I got it to run like stock.

Willie

By the way I’m in between KB 4.2L and the 3.8L Whipple. Mostly leaning towards KB for the Carb E.O. deal but not sold on it yet.

I need a build engine first.


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[Willie]

I used to have Whipples. They are both excellent. Kind of like Ford v Chevy I suppose. One guy has good luck with one while another with the other. But there is one noticeable difference. My 4.2 has blower whine 100 percent of the time. I mean even at idle or a slow cruise, she sounds like an ATI ProCharger centrifugal (I've had these too). My Whipples never made any noise until you got on them.... not that this matters, but just nice to know all the things people don't talk about if you need to choose.

 

[Willie]

I was wondering if I could adjust the screw in the TB but I am kind of worry about the warning to not touch it.

In the tune, there's a "Default Angle". >>

When you datalog, you can see what the actual throttle angle is at idle. These two should be the same. In my case, after I turned the taboo never touch screw, these two no longer coincided and I was going to change it in the tune but when I ran her, she showed no signs of anything being "off", so I just left it.

Willie

 

[Luillo69]

I just did a long ride to kind of test all situations. After i moved the TPS by a little due to the 2 screws not allowing much movement and loading the revision tune from Lund which he adjusted fuel trim a little and raised the RPMs to help the issue, the car was much better. The issue still present and is killing my desire to keep the TB. It is so hard to come to a stop light thinking your shit is working and then no go. I will call KB tomorrow and ask for any advice but as Lund said, i am sure is going to be a back and forward blame game. I do think the TB gets stuck or the TPS is not functioning properly but i am out of options. The last option i see is to touch that screw with the hopes of keeping the TB from closing hard or fast. I feel as if the TB issue is due to heavy or fast blade closure as it happens during those times of cruising and i let of the gas. While heavy acceleration is mostly ok, i haven't noticed issue at all then.

If I cant fix this POS it will be for sale along with the X.B.A Elbow then I will be in the market for a new TB more reliable.

 

[Luillo69]

In the tune, there's a "Default Angle". >>
View attachment 1704224

When you datalog, you can see what the actual throttle angle is at idle. These two should be the same. In my case, after I turned the taboo never touch screw, these two no longer coincided and I was going to change it in the tune but when I ran her, she showed no signs of anything being "off", so I just left it.

Willie

I would love to venture into tuning but I am more of a mechanic than tuner so i have not much experience. What are you using for tuning? I might have to get on that anyways if the EPA keeps pushing their agenda. lol...

 

[Robert M]

I just did a long ride to kind of test all situations. After i moved the TPS by a little due to the 2 screws not allowing much movement and loading the revision tune from Lund which he adjusted fuel trim a little and raised the RPMs to help the issue, the car was much better. The issue still present and is killing my desire to keep the TB. It is so hard to come to a stop light thinking your shit is working and then no go. I will call KB tomorrow and ask for any advice but as Lund said, i am sure is going to be a back and forward blame game. I do think the TB gets stuck or the TPS is not functioning properly but i am out of options. The last option i see is to touch that screw with the hopes of keeping the TB from closing hard or fast. I feel as if the TB issue is due to heavy or fast blade closure as it happens during those times of cruising and i let of the gas. While heavy acceleration is mostly ok, i haven't noticed issue at all then.

If I cant fix this POS it will be for sale along with the X.B.A Elbow then I will be in the market for a new TB more reliable.

Have you (and maybe you have) verified that the KB TB updates have been done as I outlined way back in post #73? <<This was a couple of "fixes" for the KB TB's and the plunger spring that I mentioned in that post is related to the throttle blades. Here is a copy and paste from my post #73.......

I have a "spare" Dual 75mm V6 (Version 6) that I sent to KB to be upgraded to V9. The V9 updates were the spring in the plunger area, it is now shorter and Silver colored instead of longer and not Silver colored and there were two bushings that fit around two of the screws that attach the motor plate to the T.B., I believe those bushing help to put the motor drive gear in better alignment with the T.B. gears. I would guess that these two updates are also what make the 168mm a V9, the spring change and the motor plate bushings?

The plunger spring is what sits under that throttle blade screw that no one is supposed to adjust.........and the throttle blade stops against that plunger and spring........

I have had no issues with my Dual 75mm after those update KB parts were installed.......and as I mentioned, I would think that they would apply to the 168 mono also? Just thought I would ask if you had verified your TB is "up to date"?

R

 

[Willie]

....If I cant fix this POS it will be for sale along with the X.B.A Elbow then I will be in the market for a new TB more reliable.

I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's easy to throw in the towel when the frustration creeps in. I've had mine for two or three years (can't recall exactly) and I'd never tuned a mono before, so I was slightly intimidated. That turned to frustration as I kept trying to figure it out. And with literally no help from pro tuners (they like to keep their "solutions" to themselves), it became a game of trial and error. Months turned into years. I too, swapped the 168 out for a dual bore several times. I had to fab an adapter to do this but I was frustrated enough at times to have the desire to make one. And like you, the desire to drive her was no longer there. I had more issues than just the failsafe, FYI..... but I kept at it. I did finally find a few tuners that did help. With their help and more trial and error, I finally got it working perfectly. And more importantly, I gained the knowledge!

I sent you a PM.....

Robert, you're spot on! This thread is old and super long and I don't blame anyone for not reading all the posts, so cudos to you for bringing up the topic of springs, etc.....

I think the problem is the blades shutting too quickly is this: When you're into the go pedal, then let up, the vacuum in the intake instantaneously rises and literally helps to "pull" the blade, making it slam shut. And the bigger the blade, the harder it slams. I could be wrong... this is just a thought of mine. And these huge TB's are a bear to get to idle because every minute rotation of the blade off throttle increases the space for the air to get through disproportionately >> too much air, so the PCM is constantly trying to adjust. This can cause surging, hunting, etc.... The one thing I had to change, among many, was to retard my idle timing by a significant amount. That helped bring the idle speed down.

Willie

 

[Luillo69]

I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's easy to throw in the towel when the frustration creeps in. I've had mine for two or three years (can't recall exactly) and I'd never tuned a mono before, so I was slightly intimidated. That turned to frustration as I kept trying to figure it out. And with literally no help from pro tuners (they like to keep their "solutions" to themselves), it became a game of trial and error. Months turned into years. I too, swapped the 168 out for a dual bore several times. I had to fab an adapter to do this but I was frustrated enough at times to have the desire to make one. And like you, the desire to drive her was no longer there. I had more issues than just the failsafe, FYI..... but I kept at it. I did finally find a few tuners that did help. With their help and more trial and error, I finally got it working perfectly. And more importantly, I gained the knowledge!

I sent you a PM.....

Robert, you're spot on! This thread is old and super long and I don't blame anyone for not reading all the posts, so cudos to you for bringing up the topic of springs, etc.....

I think the problem is the blades shutting too quickly is this: When you're into the go pedal, then let up, the vacuum in the intake instantaneously rises and literally helps to "pull" the blade, making it slam shut. And the bigger the blade, the harder it slams. I could be wrong... this is just a thought of mine. And these huge TB's are a bear to get to idle because every minute rotation of the blade off throttle increases the space for the air to get through disproportionately >> too much air, so the PCM is constantly trying to adjust. This can cause surging, hunting, etc.... The one thing I had to change, among many, was to retard my idle timing by a significant amount. That helped bring the idle speed down.

Willie

Willie,

I just got your pm. I will shoot you a text tomorrow, today is too late. Thanks again for helping.


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[Robert M]

I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's easy to throw in the towel when the frustration creeps in. I've had mine for two or three years (can't recall exactly) and I'd never tuned a mono before, so I was slightly intimidated. That turned to frustration as I kept trying to figure it out. And with literally no help from pro tuners (they like to keep their "solutions" to themselves), it became a game of trial and error. Months turned into years. I too, swapped the 168 out for a dual bore several times. I had to fab an adapter to do this but I was frustrated enough at times to have the desire to make one. And like you, the desire to drive her was no longer there. I had more issues than just the failsafe, FYI..... but I kept at it. I did finally find a few tuners that did help. With their help and more trial and error, I finally got it working perfectly. And more importantly, I gained the knowledge!

I sent you a PM.....

Robert, you're spot on! This thread is old and super long and I don't blame anyone for not reading all the posts, so cudos to you for bringing up the topic of springs, etc.....

I think the problem is the blades shutting too quickly is this: When you're into the go pedal, then let up, the vacuum in the intake instantaneously rises and literally helps to "pull" the blade, making it slam shut. And the bigger the blade, the harder it slams. I could be wrong... this is just a thought of mine. And these huge TB's are a bear to get to idle because every minute rotation of the blade off throttle increases the space for the air to get through disproportionately >> too much air, so the PCM is constantly trying to adjust. This can cause surging, hunting, etc.... The one thing I had to change, among many, was to retard my idle timing by a significant amount. That helped bring the idle speed down.

Willie

I just wanted to mention this because yes, once a thread has many pages of posts, most get overlooked in search of "new" information that has previously been given in a past/older post. I agree with the high vacuum and the big blade possibly slamming shut, that is where the spring update comes in, at least for the dual 75mm and as I mentioned, it may also apply to the 168, but that would be a KB call to verify. That plunger spring "cushions", for lack of a better description, the shutting of the blade(s) and helps minimize the "slam shut" problem.

..........and then better alignment of the gears can't hurt and that is what those bushings are for on two of the three motor plate screws. I had another spare dual 75mm that I updated on my kitchen counter, it was a simple process......A clock spring tool was also provided by KB in the upgrade kit to adjust the initial TB blade setting according to their instructions when the motor was reinstalled on the TB.

R

 

[Luillo69]

I just wanted to mention this because yes, once a thread has many pages of posts, most get overlooked in search of "new" information that has previously been given in a past/older post. I agree with the high vacuum and the big blade possibly slamming shut, that is where the spring update comes in, at least for the dual 75mm and as I mentioned, it may also apply to the 168, but that would be a KB call to verify. That plunger spring "cushions", for lack of a better description, the shutting of the blade(s) and helps minimize the "slam shut" problem.

..........and then better alignment of the gears can't hurt and that is what those bushings are for on two of the three motor plate screws. I had another spare dual 75mm that I updated on my kitchen counter, it was a simple process......A clock spring tool was also provided by KB in the upgrade kit to adjust the initial TB blade setting according to their instructions when the motor was reinstalled on the TB.

R

I did received the tool because it was needed to swap my TPS and electronic motor to the KB 168 but i didn't noticed any specific instructions about springs adjustment or gears. I took the stock TB spring and motor and installed in the KB. Now that i am thinking about it, i never paid attention to how much wind should i put on the spring with the tool provided. Is there a detail i should look into about that?

 

[Robert M]

I did received the tool because it was needed to swap my TPS and electronic motor to the KB 168 but i didn't noticed any specific instructions about springs adjustment or gears. I took the stock TB spring and motor and installed in the KB. Now that i am thinking about it, i never paid attention to how much wind should i put on the spring with the tool provided. Is there a detail i should look into about that?

The instruction sheet that I have has a specific number of turns for that clock spring using the tool, I don't remember if it is 1 turn, 1.5 or 2 turns. The KB paper is not where I can easily get to it right now. The 3 screws that hold the motor to the motor plate also have an update, 2 of them get bushings to better align the motor and plate for gear contact. The plunger spring was just a "stare and compare", if your current TB does not have the Silver spring, the TB update kit had the spring to replace a non-Silver spring...........Like I said, all of this was for a Dual 75mm, but I would guess that the 168 may also have some updates to be performed if it is not a new (or newer 168).

Call Rick at KB and see what updates they have for the 168mm, he may send you an update kit with all of the parts and instructions for 168.

The first question will be........What version is it? On the backside, or somewhere there should be a Vx stamped in the TB. On my Dual 75 it was stamped in the TB housing between the two blades. My 2011 Dual 75 was a V6 and they were at V9 a couple of years ago for the Dual 75 and my V6 had the Silver spring, but it did not have the 2 screw bushings, so I added them to completely update it.

R

 

[Luillo69]

The instruction sheet that I have has a specific number of turns for that clock spring using the tool, I don't remember if it is 1 turn, 1.5 or 2 turns. The KB paper is not where I can easily get to it right now. The 3 screws that hold the motor to the motor plate also have an update, 2 of them get bushings to better align the motor and plate for gear contact. The plunger spring was just a "stare and compare", if your current TB does not have the Silver spring, the TB update kit had the spring to replace a non-Silver spring...........Like I said, all of this was for a Dual 75mm, but I would guess that the 168 may also have some updates to be performed if it is not a new (or newer 168).

Call Rick at KB and see what updates they have for the 168mm, he may send you an update kit with all of the parts and instructions for 168.

The first question will be........What version is it? On the backside, or somewhere there should be a Vx stamped in the TB. On my Dual 75 it was stamped in the TB housing between the two blades. My 2011 Dual 75 was a V6 and they were at V9 a couple of years ago for the Dual 75 and my V6 had the Silver spring, but it did not have the 2 screw bushings, so I added them to completely update it.

R

Mine came with the bushings and the tool. I installed the bushings in the correct spot but didn't saw anything about spring turns or replacements. Thanks for the info, that might be my problem. I cranked that spring until the max i could, i am sure i gave it too much and not it slams the blade hard.

 

[Robert M]

Mine came with the bushings and the tool. I installed the bushings in the correct spot but didn't saw anything about spring turns or replacements. Thanks for the info, that might be my problem. I cranked that spring until the max i could, i am sure i gave it too much and not it slams the blade hard.

Yes, that may be too much spring tension.

R

 

[SCALILOU]

That's most likely your problem. That spring is to be turned a specific amount, definitely not cranked until you can't turn it. I think it's something like 1.5 turns or something like that. I have the instructions at home, but I'm sure you can Google search it

Mine came with the bushings and the tool. I installed the bushings in the correct spot but didn't saw anything about spring turns or replacements. Thanks for the info, that might be my problem. I cranked that spring until the max i could, i am sure i gave it too much and not it slams the blade hard.

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[Luillo69]

That's most likely your problem. That spring is to be turned a specific amount, definitely not cranked until you can't turn it. I think it's something like 1.5 turns or something like that. I have the instructions at home, but I'm sure you can Google search it

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I will look for them but I just called KB and the rep said it will not matter. It think it does because it will put extra pressure making it harder to close smoothly. Maybe that extra pressure make the blade slam hard causing the issue.


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[SCALILOU]

It's strange KB would say that. It definitely matters, or they wouldn't have provided detailed, specific instructions and a special tool. I set my spring per the instructions, and it opens and closes very smoothly.

I will look for them but I just called KB and the rep said it will not matter. It think it does because it will put extra pressure making it harder to close smoothly. Maybe that extra pressure make the blade slam hard causing the issue.


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[1Kona_Venom]

I don't mind when old threads are bumped when it's informative. If anyone cares lol Actually learned something by checking out this thread. Thanks

 

[Robert M]

If I need to get out the KB information and take pictures of it for exact adjustment information, I can do it in the morning keeping in mind my info. is for a Dual 75mm update, but I would be happy to take pictures of the upgrade and adjustment procedures that I have which includes the clock spring adj..........

R

 

[Luillo69]

If I need to get out the KB information and take pictures of it for exact adjustment information, I can do it in the morning keeping in mind my info. is for a Dual 75mm update, but I would be happy to take pictures of the upgrade and adjustment procedures that I have which includes the clock spring adj..........

R

Awesome brother and thanks. I think you are correct. I just un-winded the spring and did one turn which was very tight already and I am currently testing it with zero issues. I truly hope that’s the problem as the car runs way better than before with the exception of the jerkiness of the big TB in comparison with the stock one.

I am kind of happy but I will report a final result after I finish the ride.


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