2014 GT 500 Catastrophic Engine Failure: Next Steps? Thoughts?

@SteveWK: You always have to be cautious when adding power to these cars. Nothing is bullet proof but you can take precautions. 1. Use a tuner that is well known for working on THESE cars. If I had it to do over again, I would have it tuned by Lund or someone like him. 2. Always check your oil. My car was eating oil and I didn't watch levels as I should have. I went down several quarts of oil fast. I think a major reason for the fail was because Oil pressure was way too low and I wasn't watching the helm close enough. My car was gobbling oil up quick. I JUST got an oil change and they put in an extra quart at service. When I checked post fail I was down several quarts...not good. Keep an eye on your ride. 3. For weeks I felt that something was wrong with my car. It was losing power higher in the power band like it was fuel starved or the mixture wasn't right, I still have to check by BAP to make sure that didn't give up the ghost as that would also help explain things (not enough fuel BOOM). I would have put in a new and better fuel system in lieu of BAP if I had it to do over again. Anything that can compromise fuel delivery and cause BOOM- not good. 4. If your car doesn't "feel quite right" dont drive it, and at the very least don't race it!!! Duh. I raced a guy when I knew my car wasn't 100%. Don't let ego bankrupt you and make you feel stupid. 5. Don't add gobs of power with bolt ons ALL AT ONCE. Make small changes and see how your car responds. You never know what YOUR engine can take until too late. There will be variations in compression between cylinders and that is normal (So I"m told) but when you start to see that variation GROW and the gap get wider between your passenger side and driver side, STOP and ASSESS. I had a 10% variation exactly between my 3 driver side cylinders and that grew over time. I should have stopped and had the engine broken down to assess (expensive but not as expensive as now). In a perfect world, build your engine to properly handle power. When I rebuild I will SLEEVE the block out of an abundance of caution. I will build the engine to take higher RPMs and reset the rev limiter higher and NOT HIT THE REV LIMITER with any regularity (not possible to never do this but do best to avoid). I'm not one of the more tech savvy guys on the forum with extensive mechanical prowess but I've learned through the school of hard knocks. Good luck to you Steve!

@Mulholland Man: Thanks for the advice. I'll break this up into two parts, first the suspension, and then on to the engine. I hope you don't mind it being so long, but I could spend days talking about cars.

I had Van's full Griggs setup too. Adjustable Koni coil overs with BMR control arms, BMR K member, and Griggs double adjustable coil overs in the rear with a Griggs torque arm, watts link, and lower control arms. Off all those parts the only ones remaining on the car are the rear control arms, torque arm, and watts link. I replaced the 3.31 gears with 4.10s and have Toyo R888s on the rear. For just general street rodding the 4.10s are a lot of fun since I can actually row through the gears without going 160 mph just like the old big block muscle cars of yesteryear, but for road racing, e.g. open track events, I wouldn't recommend them, the 3.31s seem better suited for that. Why did I remove most of the suspension parts? The car was just too stiff for everyday driving for me and here in Kansas the only turns worthy of the modifications I made were on and off ramps which were invariably blocked by some minivan. I was going to do more open track events, but that didn't materialize. There seemed to be excessive vibration from the tubular k member also. The BMR front control arms had problems too. Rather than rehash that subject, here is a post I made about the problem https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/so-long-bmr-aa025-a-arms-19mm-tall-ball-joint.1187320/ . If you have those control arms and feel like the car over reacts to steering inputs or big bumps vibrate through the steering wheel and jerk the steering around get rid of them. Either the ball joints are hosed or there is bump steer problem or both. I put the stock control arms back on and it drives like new now. When you get up and running again, find some rail road tracks and drive over them and look for these symptoms. This problem slowly crept up as the miles were piled on. I had approximately 20k miles on the control arms before I removed them.

Ok on to the engine. Again, thanks for posting the history and info that led up to your failure and I am sorry it happened. The information you posted helps me to assess the state of my engine and I'm sure it helps others. I look back on all the money I spent on mods and mod removal, and could have easily built an engine. If I had to do it all over again, I would have had the engine sleeved along with the internals to withstand 7500 rpm without a worry in the world. I'd also be sporting a Magnum XL and a 9" differential and rims that can support tires with some real traction. As I mentioned in my previous post I did a compression check about 2 years ago on the engine myself. I have the equipment to do it and the only thing I noticed was all drivers side cylinders were down on psi compared to the passengers side, but it was all within spec according to the service manual which I have on CD. I did the compression check trying to chase down a misfire problem which ended up being the crank pulley bolt being loose. I have a PMAS, 65 MM throttle body, off road h-pipe, 10% ATI with a Lund 100 octane tune. I put 32 oz of Torco in every tank now since, like you, I only have access to 91 craptane gas. I know the manganese compound in octane boosters leave an orange residue on everything, but I'm tired of driving a 91 octane neutered car. I do a lot of data logging and the knock sensors and the algorithm that drives that label only adds timing with my current setup. I use to run my same setup with the regular Lund 91 octane tune without Torco and on occasion would see the knock sensor algorithm pulling timing. Even though I spent years running 91 octane and 17 psi, in the end you are asking for trouble. I read a post from a tuner in Cali whose name I believe is Shawn @ AED and he said that he can make more power with a car at stock boost levels than at 17 psi on Cali 91 octane. The only odd symptoms I have with my car now are two fold: 1) At higher rpms, above 6500 rpm or so it feels like something is out of balance. This was the reason I got rid of the BMR K member back in 2014. This helped considerably, but I had someone else drive the car, Chad London Chassis, and he though there was something wrong with the engine. I still don't know what all those suspension mods did to my car, but it messed something up. 2) The car does lose a lot of steam around 65-6600 rpm. I have looked at the data logs and I can clearly see the engine just quits breathing at those rpms. The mass air sensor flat lines and about 9.7 HZ (if I remember correctly) and hence the amount of air going into the engine stops increasing. Well anyway, I'm going to put some heat into the engine this time and do another compression check just for sanity's sake and see if any thing is unusual. First I have to get my Can Bus problem fixed so all of my instruments quit going nuts. I think I have it narrowed down.

Good luck with everything and keep us posted.

Steve

MulhollandMan...so sorry Bud. If the engine was damaged prior to your ownership that might explain. Or perhaps it was the bolt ons which many of run very similar set ups as you. Unfortunately these bad experiences do lead to education. If you swap out the block I'd be extremely curious what caused the problem in your old engine. Hopefully, you can learn that at an affordable cost. You never know the extent ( or lack thereof) of internal damage. Is it possible your block may still be good ?
SteveWK I see you use quart of Torco in each tank that makes sense the CA octane. Is 91 octane pump gas alone okay for 17psi?
I'm at 16.5psi on 93 octane. After first tank at one quart I uses 1/2 bottle of Torco with each table refill. But...with my FBO's I kept stock injectors and was told no need for BAP . Now you guys have me thinking.
Either way...we feel for you Mulhollandman !

Jam421 said:

MulhollandMan...so sorry Bud. If the engine was damaged prior to your ownership that might explain. Or perhaps it was the bolt ons which many of run very similar set ups as you. Unfortunately these bad experiences do lead to education. If you swap out the block I'd be extremely curious what caused the problem in your old engine. Hopefully, you can learn that at an affordable cost. You never know the extent ( or lack thereof) of internal damage. Is it possible your block may still be good ?
SteveWK I see you use quart of Torco in each tank that makes sense the CA octane. Is 91 octane pump gas alone okay for 17psi?
I'm at 16.5psi on 93 octane. After first tank at one quart I uses 1/2 bottle of Torco with each table refill. But...with my FBO's I kept stock injectors and was told no need for BAP . Now you guys have me thinking.
Either way...we feel for you Mulhollandman !

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these threads always make everyone question their setup.
at the end of the day I go with what my tuner suggests.
I'm currently at 17.3 max PSI on 93 octane and my tuner had no concerns.

he had a failure and unfortunately it's a risk we all take

Good Info Steve and Jam 21. I read the post by Shawn at AED, who is a very good Tuner. 13-14 GT 500's on Cali 91* "Premium": New Tune, Twin TB, and Cai is OK. He will not Tune a car with a smaller Pulley on 91*. Says he can't recommend it. Watch your Rpm's too. Good Luck..

After reading this thread (and a few others) I've been contemplating if I should install a 2.4 pulley - it seems a lot times people are going boom through a combination of more boost and higher revs (I don't drive my car hard so the latter isn't a concern to me ... I always short-shift all my cars around 5k RPM rather than wring them out).

I only have access to Shell 91. But on the other hand I am 3,500ft above sea level. Would you guys have any concerns about doing the 2.4 pulley to make more boost (coupled w/ off-road exhaust, cai and TB), assuming I was properly dyno tuned?

edit: or should I think about it in the sense that since I'm well above sea level I'm probably down 2-3lbs of boost to begin with, plus down 1 from the off-road H mid-pipe, so by doing the 2.4 I'm probably only going to see sealevel stock levels of boost anyways? Head_hurts/10 trying to make sure I don't blow up (my 04 was so much easier - ported/pullied/intake/exhaust/tune and I've been good for 250k miles - maybe I'm overthinking my 14?)

efnfast said:

After reading this thread (and a few others) I've been contemplating if I should install a 2.4 pulley - it seems a lot times people are going boom through a combination of more boost and higher revs (I don't drive my car hard so the latter isn't a concern to me ... I always short-shift all my cars around 5k RPM rather than wring them out).

I only have access to Shell 91. But on the other hand I am 3,500ft above sea level. Would you guys have any concerns about doing the 2.4 pulley to make more boost (coupled w/ off-road exhaust, cai and TB), assuming I was properly dyno tuned?

edit: or should I think about it in the sense that since I'm well above sea level I'm probably down 2-3lbs of boost to begin with, plus down 1 from the off-road H mid-pipe, so by doing the 2.4 I'm probably only going to see sealevel stock levels of boost anyways? Head_hurts/10 trying to make sure I don't blow up (my 04 was so much easier - ported/pullied/intake/exhaust/tune and I've been good for 250k miles - maybe I'm overthinking my 14?)

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I think you're over-thinking your '14. These engines are designed for stock boost levels (and a little beyond). At 7K ft, I was down ~3psi of boost, so you should be down ~1-2psi at 3.5K ft. Either way, I believe that makes us good candidates for smaller pulleys, assuming we're PROPERLY TUNED.

FWIW, my tuner (who's very good at what he does) managed 733 RWHP & 713 RWTQ (SAE-corrected) with bolt-ons (that include JLT 127mm CF CAI, CFM Twin Jet 67mm TB, VMP 2.4" Upper, 90mm Idler, BPS Oversized & Ported Plenum/Elbow, NGK TR7-IX plugs, VMP Triple-Pass Dual-Fan H/E, and Reische 170' Tstat) on 91 octane (which is the best widely available fuel in the area).

That was over 3 years, 12K miles, and multiple race passes ago. To date, I haven't had a single problem. Like you, I make a habit of short-shifting - generally no higher than ~6K RPM. If you're confident in your tuner, my advice is to install your mods and enjoy the increased fun factor.

Jam421 said:

MulhollandMan...so sorry Bud. If the engine was damaged prior to your ownership that might explain. Or perhaps it was the bolt ons which many of run very similar set ups as you. Unfortunately these bad experiences do lead to education. If you swap out the block I'd be extremely curious what caused the problem in your old engine. Hopefully, you can learn that at an affordable cost. You never know the extent ( or lack thereof) of internal damage. Is it possible your block may still be good ?
SteveWK I see you use quart of Torco in each tank that makes sense the CA octane. Is 91 octane pump gas alone okay for 17psi?
I'm at 16.5psi on 93 octane. After first tank at one quart I uses 1/2 bottle of Torco with each table refill. But...with my FBO's I kept stock injectors and was told no need for BAP . Now you guys have me thinking.
Either way...we feel for you Mulhollandman !

Click to expand...

I was told this several years ago by John Lund Jr. that 17 psi is too much boost for 91 octane. This time around with Lund and a different tuner at Lund I'm not being told that but then again I didn't ask the question. I think the owners manual recommends 93 octane for our cars with 91 as the minimum. I keep reading how much fun E85 is but I'm not wiling to potentially break a rod running it plus it isn't abundantly available here in the great state of Kansaw. So my choices were to put the stock crank pulley back on or leave my 10% overdrive ATI crank pulley on and up the octane with Torco or something similar so that I could be safe and take advantage of the added boost. I realize octane boosters can foul spark plugs and turn everything orange. I probably would stay away from them if I was running catalytic convertors, but I really like the added low end grunt the extra 2 psi gives and I don't have to worry about detonation with Lund's conservative tunes. I am running their "100 Octane" tune currently and was told the most timing it will add is 21.5 degrees. I was also told adding more timing doesn't add much if any more power. It's been hard for me to evaluate the higher octane tune and added octane due to Torco because it has been so hot here. The heat kills the torque.

Update: I'm being quoted 1500 bucks just to remove the engine from the car. Engine builder says he can disassemble and inspect entire big block for 500. That's 2k just to find out exactly what went wrong and how much to rebuild the engine. Getting estimates of 8-20k to rebuild (without knowing exactly what we are dealing with yet). Wife doesn't want me to keep the car. She's not a big fan of me modding the car in first place. I'm thinking VERY seriously about selling the car as is but worried that I'm going to lose my shirt doing so. Everything on this car is TITS, especially the complete Griggs SS suspension ($5000 + 3500 to install). Specs are above.

If you were me and wanted to sell the car, how would you proceed? Would you spend the 2k to find out damage and repairs and then price the car accounting for the rebuild cost? Would you rebuild and sell? Not even sure how to value it given the circumstances. Car had to be worth 50k before damage (put 30k + into it). Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you all might have.

Norton said:

I think you're over-thinking your '14. These engines are designed for stock boost levels (and a little beyond). At 7K ft, I was down ~3psi of boost, so you should be down ~1-2psi at 3.5K ft. Either way, I believe that makes us good candidates for smaller pulleys, assuming we're PROPERLY TUNED.

FWIW, my tuner (who's very good at what he does) managed 733 RWHP & 713 RWTQ (SAE-corrected) with bolt-ons (that include JLT 127mm CF CAI, CFM Twin Jet 67mm TB, VMP 2.4" Upper, 90mm Idler, BPS Oversized & Ported Plenum/Elbow, NGK TR7-IX plugs, VMP Triple-Pass Dual-Fan H/E, and Reische 170' Tstat) on 91 octane (which is the best widely available fuel in the area).
View attachment 1657914
That was over 3 years, 12K miles, and multiple race passes ago. To date, I haven't had a single problem. Like you, I make a habit of short-shifting - generally no higher than ~6K RPM. If you're confident in your tuner, my advice is to install your mods and enjoy the increased fun factor.

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Agree with Norton. Look, to be perfectly clear, I was BURNING OIL. adding a ton of oil to the AF mixture turns 91 octane to 87...not good. My case involves engine damage that was allowing oil to get into combustion chamber. If you keep an eye on your oil levels, have a good tuner and take care of your car you shouldn't experience the problems that I did. I had lots of warning signs before my engine went. If your car starts feeling "Slower" or "off", or you hear knock, take it to your tuner and have him evaluate it. Data log it.

Mulholland Man said:

Update: I'm being quoted 1500 bucks just to remove the engine from the car. Engine builder says he can disassemble and inspect entire big block for 500. That's 2k just to find out exactly what went wrong and how much to rebuild the engine. Getting estimates of 8-20k to rebuild (without knowing exactly what we are dealing with yet). Wife doesn't want me to keep the car. She's not a big fan of me modding the car in first place. I'm thinking VERY seriously about selling the car as is but worried that I'm going to lose my shirt doing so. Everything on this car is TITS, especially the complete Griggs SS suspension ($5000 + 3500 to install). Specs are above.

If you were me and wanted to sell the car, how would you proceed? Would you spend the 2k to find out damage and repairs and then price the car accounting for the rebuild cost? Would you rebuild and sell? Not even sure how to value it given the circumstances. Car had to be worth 50k before damage (put 30k + into it). Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you all might have.

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I'm not sure how I'd proceed in your situation. I do know the best way to recoup mod investments is usually to parting-out and selling them separately.

why such a big range there for a rebuilt?
5.8L 4V GT500 Aluminum Shortblock 1200 HP (2013-2014 GT500)

a full shortblock 1200hp capable is 12k...so where's he getting that 20k number? i guess if heads etc are damaged?
did he go over all of that?

How big a loss are you willing to accept if you just walk away from it? Problem with rebuilding it is you may not come out ahead if you end up selling it when it's done. Modded cars might command a small premium, but generally you simply won't recoup the cost of the parts you put into it. Even removing and reselling you're not going to come out that well, but are likely to yield a little bit more than leaving the parts on the car. And I'm talking parts cost alone. You just have to write off the cost of installation. Frankly, if you could get more than $25k out of it with a blown engine, I'd be somewhat amazed. I'm not saying it's not worth that, but I don't think there's a long list of buyers wanting to take on that headache. These engines are just damned expensive to rebuild. I think your market will be someone that's looking to get it back on the road as cheaply as possible and flip it. You sort of have to look at it as what's the biggest loss to you and how much of your personal time is it going to take going either route.

If it were me, I'd yank the engine and tear it down, but I'm capable of doing the work myself. I blew a head gasket with less than 3,000 miles on my car, so I just built a 5.8 shortblock to put it back together, so I've been down this road. If you're relying on others to do the work for you, I'd do a bit of research on a good reputable shop to pull the engine and reinstall it. I would then work with an engine builder to do whatever needs to be done to get the engine back on the road. Talk to them before hand and let them know you're not looking for a 1,500 hp short block that's looking to set records. I've seen too many situations go bad when the mechanic has the work done with a different engine builder. I'm sure we only hear about the guys that paid for one thing and got another, when the shit blew up again, but I think if you deal with two reputable shops you lessen the chances of getting taken. And by "you", I mean you. Mechanic and engine builder should not have to deal with one another on specs or payment.

The logistics of doing a rebuild could present problems. Reputable engine builders have back logs. It may take weeks or months to build your engine. Mechanic is not likely to store your engineless car in his shop waiting on the motor. Think that one out ahead of time. I'd rather have my car sitting at home in the garage without an engine, then sitting in a yard where it's not being monitored. It'd be pretty easy to lose the whole car to someone with a flatbed.

So, someone needs to pull the engine. You don't have to do that much disassembly to find out what happened. If the engine is seized, it should be apparent trying to turn the crankshaft. If it is seized, you would need to drop the pan to see what happened. If there's no visible damage, like rod(s) broken in two, it either ran without any oil, or you have piston/cylinder failure. Rings can butt together if they get too hot and are capable causing enough friction to pop the crown off the top of the piston. That will typically produce cylinder and/or head damage. You may not be able to see that sort of damage with the pan off. If the damage is not evident from the bottom side, you're going to have to pull the heads.

However, if you've decided to rebuild it, I'd let the engine builder do the autopsy. Parts are too easy to misplace if an engine is torn down by one guy and rebuilt by another. The fact that you were down on compression leads me to believe, you'd need the block to be sleeved at a minimum. If the block is windowed, buying a new aluminum block will only end up being a little more expensive. At this point you need to decide if you're upgrading any internals or not. Good rods aren't cheap, but at a minimum I'd put H-beam rods in it because it's a good selling point, especially on a modified engine. Now if a piston came apart and damaged one or both of the heads, your cost could increase dramatically. If that's what you find, I'd try to find a complete engine assembly out of a parted car and skip the rebuild altogether.

I'd explain to the misses upfront that you're not getting your money out of this deal anyway you slice it, so you're just going to drive it to get your money's worth out of it.

Now as to rev limiters. If you look at the hundreds of dyno charts in the 5.8 and 5.4 forums, you will notice that these engine are all done by 6,000 rpm with the stock cams. You might pick up few hp wringing it beyond that, but you really do compound the risk of breaking a rod. You'll make more power with an aggressive cam above that, but you have to weigh the price of a possible rebuild going beyond the redline. The stroke on these engines is over 4". That's a lot of stroke and capable of producing some really fast piston speeds. That long stoke is intended for mid-range torque, not high revving horsepower. Many hear the term sintered forged rods and think their rods are forged. Sinter forged powdered metal rods are not the same thing as hammer forged steel. They're strong up to a point, but are brittle and unforgiving. The fact they can take what we dish at them is rather amazing, but they have their limitations. Leave the 7,500 rpm redlines to the Coyotes or get some real forged rods.

SteveWK said:

@Mulholland Man: Thanks for the advice. I'll break this up into two parts, first the suspension, and then on to the engine. I hope you don't mind it being so long, but I could spend days talking about cars.

I had Van's full Griggs setup too. Adjustable Koni coil overs with BMR control arms, BMR K member, and Griggs double adjustable coil overs in the rear with a Griggs torque arm, watts link, and lower control arms. Off all those parts the only ones remaining on the car are the rear control arms, torque arm, and watts link. I replaced the 3.31 gears with 4.10s and have Toyo R888s on the rear. For just general street rodding the 4.10s are a lot of fun since I can actually row through the gears without going 160 mph just like the old big block muscle cars of yesteryear, but for road racing, e.g. open track events, I wouldn't recommend them, the 3.31s seem better suited for that. Why did I remove most of the suspension parts? The car was just too stiff for everyday driving for me and here in Kansas the only turns worthy of the modifications I made were on and off ramps which were invariably blocked by some minivan. I was going to do more open track events, but that didn't materialize. There seemed to be excessive vibration from the tubular k member also. The BMR front control arms had problems too. Rather than rehash that subject, here is a post I made about the problem https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/so-long-bmr-aa025-a-arms-19mm-tall-ball-joint.1187320/ . If you have those control arms and feel like the car over reacts to steering inputs or big bumps vibrate through the steering wheel and jerk the steering around get rid of them. Either the ball joints are hosed or there is bump steer problem or both. I put the stock control arms back on and it drives like new now. When you get up and running again, find some rail road tracks and drive over them and look for these symptoms. This problem slowly crept up as the miles were piled on. I had approximately 20k miles on the control arms before I removed them.

Ok on to the engine. Again, thanks for posting the history and info that led up to your failure and I am sorry it happened. The information you posted helps me to assess the state of my engine and I'm sure it helps others. I look back on all the money I spent on mods and mod removal, and could have easily built an engine. If I had to do it all over again, I would have had the engine sleeved along with the internals to withstand 7500 rpm without a worry in the world. I'd also be sporting a Magnum XL and a 9" differential and rims that can support tires with some real traction. As I mentioned in my previous post I did a compression check about 2 years ago on the engine myself. I have the equipment to do it and the only thing I noticed was all drivers side cylinders were down on psi compared to the passengers side, but it was all within spec according to the service manual which I have on CD. I did the compression check trying to chase down a misfire problem which ended up being the crank pulley bolt being loose. I have a PMAS, 65 MM throttle body, off road h-pipe, 10% ATI with a Lund 100 octane tune. I put 32 oz of Torco in every tank now since, like you, I only have access to 91 craptane gas. I know the manganese compound in octane boosters leave an orange residue on everything, but I'm tired of driving a 91 octane neutered car. I do a lot of data logging and the knock sensors and the algorithm that drives that label only adds timing with my current setup. I use to run my same setup with the regular Lund 91 octane tune without Torco and on occasion would see the knock sensor algorithm pulling timing. Even though I spent years running 91 octane and 17 psi, in the end you are asking for trouble. I read a post from a tuner in Cali whose name I believe is Shawn @ AED and he said that he can make more power with a car at stock boost levels than at 17 psi on Cali 91 octane. The only odd symptoms I have with my car now are two fold: 1) At higher rpms, above 6500 rpm or so it feels like something is out of balance. This was the reason I got rid of the BMR K member back in 2014. This helped considerably, but I had someone else drive the car, Chad London Chassis, and he though there was something wrong with the engine. I still don't know what all those suspension mods did to my car, but it messed something up. 2) The car does lose a lot of steam around 65-6600 rpm. I have looked at the data logs and I can clearly see the engine just quits breathing at those rpms. The mass air sensor flat lines and about 9.7 HZ (if I remember correctly) and hence the amount of air going into the engine stops increasing. Well anyway, I'm going to put some heat into the engine this time and do another compression check just for sanity's sake and see if any thing is unusual. First I have to get my Can Bus problem fixed so all of my instruments quit going nuts. I think I have it narrowed down.

Good luck with everything and keep us posted.

Steve

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Steve, in my case, I was losing steam when i got under boost and the higher into the RPM range I got the more power decreased. Generally not a good sign. Instinctually I knew to back off (Until I was engaged in beating a young kid in a GM and I lost my way- ooops). If you have data logged those higher RPMs what is it telling you? When my car was running right it would just FLY up to the redline. So quick would it get there under 17 PSI of boost that I really would have to watch it. All of a sudden the I felt like i was climbing a mountain in 100 degree heat. RPMs moving SLOW up the range (under same boost). That made no sense. In my case the fuel was probably mixing with oil which was retarding timing and leading to Knock. No bueno. Gotta remember too that our piston rings were gaped for standard HP/boost levels at stock. Once you add the boost we have you are putting a lot more pressure into the Cylinder and you can get a lot of blow-by. Once the oil gets into the cylinders and causes knock you can damage the pistons and internals. I didn't put the Oil Separators in RIGHT AWAY when I added boost. Highly advise oil separators to prevent this type of detonation scenario which could have exacerbated existing problems. I started noticing gray smoke (a fair bit of it under boost and only under boost) coming out the back of my car. I put the separators on and it stopped, but by that time I think damage had been done. Always put those Oil separators in when you do your first power adders/mods. Cheap insurance. Nothing that hasn't been said on this forum in the past.

darksykal said:

why such a big range there for a rebuilt?
5.8L 4V GT500 Aluminum Shortblock 1200 HP (2013-2014 GT500)

a full shortblock 1200hp capable is 12k...so where's he getting that 20k number? i guess if heads etc are damaged?
did he go over all of that?

Click to expand...

Well if they want $1,500 to pull the engine, it's a safe bet they'll want at least another $1,500 to reinstall it. That puts you at $15,000 or more. I'll bet you'll spend a couple hundred to ship the engine by freight. Then there's assembling the long block at $100/hr, all the associated timing chain components, head gaskets, new engine fasteners, etc. It's not recommended that you reused many of the gaskets on the engine for oil control, but none of that stuff is cheap either. It adds up faster than you think. That new short block doesn't have billet OPGs. Do you want a built engine without them? You might not spend the whole $20k, but it's not an unrealistic budget.

Catmonkey said:

How big a loss are you willing to accept if you just walk away from it? Problem with rebuilding it is you may not come out ahead if you end up selling it when it's done. Modded cars might command a small premium, but generally you simply won't recoup the cost of the parts you put into it. Even removing and reselling you're not going to come out that well, but are likely to yield a little bit more than leaving the parts on the car. And I'm talking parts cost alone. You just have to write off the cost of installation. Frankly, if you could get more than $25k out of it with a blown engine, I'd be somewhat amazed. I'm not saying it's not worth that, but I don't think there's a long list of buyers wanting to take on that headache. These engines are just damned expensive to rebuild. I think your market will be someone that's looking to get it back on the road as cheaply as possible and flip it. You sort of have to look at it as what's the biggest loss to you and how much of your personal time is it going to take going either route.

If it were me, I'd yank the engine and tear it down, but I'm capable of doing the work myself. I blew a head gasket with less than 3,000 miles on my car, so I just built a 5.8 shortblock to put it back together, so I've been down this road. If you're relying on others to do the work for you, I'd do a bit of research on a good reputable shop to pull the engine and reinstall it. I would then work with an engine builder to do whatever needs to be done to get the engine back on the road. Talk to them before hand and let them know you're not looking for a 1,500 hp short block that's looking to set records. I've seen too many situations go bad when the mechanic has the work done with a different engine builder. I'm sure we only hear about the guys that paid for one thing and got another, when the shit blew up again, but I think if you deal with two reputable shops you lessen the chances of getting taken. And by "you", I mean you. Mechanic and engine builder should not have to deal with one another on specs or payment.

The logistics of doing a rebuild could present problems. Reputable engine builders have back logs. It may take weeks or months to build your engine. Mechanic is not likely to store your engineless car in his shop waiting on the motor. Think that one out ahead of time. I'd rather have my car sitting at home in the garage without an engine, then sitting in a yard where it's not being monitored. It'd be pretty easy to lose the whole car to someone with a flatbed.

So, someone needs to pull the engine. You don't have to do that much disassembly to find out what happened. If the engine is seized, it should be apparent trying to turn the crankshaft. If it is seized, you would need to drop the pan to see what happened. If there's no visible damage, like rod(s) broken in two, it either ran without any oil, or you have piston/cylinder failure. Rings can butt together if they get too hot and are capable causing enough friction to pop the crown off the top of the piston. That will typically produce cylinder and/or head damage. You may not be able to see that sort of damage with the pan off. If the damage is not evident from the bottom side, you're going to have to pull the heads.

However, if you've decided to rebuild it, I'd let the engine builder do the autopsy. Parts are too easy to misplace if an engine is torn down by one guy and rebuilt by another. The fact that you were down on compression leads me to believe, you'd need the block to be sleeved at a minimum. If the block is windowed, buying a new aluminum block will only end up being a little more expensive. At this point you need to decide if you're upgrading any internals or not. Good rods aren't cheap, but at a minimum I'd put H-beam rods in it because it's a good selling point, especially on a modified engine. Now if a piston came apart and damaged one or both of the heads, your cost could increase dramatically. If that's what you find, I'd try to find a complete engine assembly out of a parted car and skip the rebuild altogether.

I'd explain to the misses upfront that you're not getting your money out of this deal anyway you slice it, so you're just going to drive it to get your money's worth out of it.

Now as to rev limiters. If you look at the hundreds of dyno charts in the 5.8 and 5.4 forums, you will notice that these engine are all done by 6,000 rpm with the stock cams. You might pick up few hp wringing it beyond that, but you really do compound the risk of breaking a rod. You'll make more power with an aggressive cam above that, but you have to weigh the price of a possible rebuild going beyond the redline. The stroke on these engines is over 4". That's a lot of stroke and capable of producing some really fast piston speeds. That long stoke is intended for mid-range torque, not high revving horsepower. Many hear the term sintered forged rods and think their rods are forged. Sinter forged powdered metal rods are not the same thing as hammer forged steel. They're strong up to a point, but are brittle and unforgiving. The fact they can take what we dish at them is rather amazing, but they have their limitations. Leave the 7,500 rpm redlines to the Coyotes or get some real forged rods.

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Catmonkey, thank you so much for your wise words and for taking the time to share your knowledge. Can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I'm leaning towards selling it as is for a loss and buying a GT350. That said, I have this little voice in the back of my head saying "what if the damage isn't as bad as I think it is?" Is there any point in having my tuner do a leak down /compression test and maybe pulling the pan to try to determine how bad things are (If I don't intend to rebuild at cost of 8k or higher)? I guess I am just looking for a little peace of mind and reassurance that if I sell my car for a big loss that I didn't make a huge mistake. Thanks again for your help Catmonkey!

BTW, with respect to hitting the limiters, I would do this most often when doing doughnuts or burnouts and not modulating the throttle quick enough (this was before I had drag radials on the back and it was easy to spin the tires up to max RPM and quick. Always shifted around 6000-6400.

Can you turn the engine over at all, or is it locked up? I'm not taking about actually starting it. Do you know if it's seized? I can see some scenarios where it might not be as bad as as others. Let's say you broke a cam sprocket. You might have had a valve kiss a piston, but it's possible there's no damage to the head or block. The oil consumption thing is problematic. I would not want to tear it apart and not correct that issue. The spray bore pretty much limits you to a sleeved block if the bore is compromised. That liner is pretty tough, but there's nothing but aluminum below that microscopic surface. I would put H-beam rods in it, and you could get by with using the same stock pistons assuming you can get aftermarket rings for them. JDM machines Manley H-beam rods to use with the stock pistons on their builds, otherwise regular aftermarket rods won't work with the stock 13-14 pistons.

Any word on Bimini's short block?

I'm just on the sideline observing.
I wouldn't let just "any shop" diagnose it.
Trailer it if need be, AED or GTR. Those are the only 2 that I know of in California that know the Mustang/Shelby platform


If it were me, I would do whatever it took to bring it back to life.
No matter the time frame. Years if need be.

These are very good folks nearby to me. They get stuff all the time. Maybe a used factory 5.8 if that's what is determined to get it up and running again

The Parts Farm

Catmonkey said:

Can you turn the engine over at all, or is it locked up? I'm not taking about actually starting it. Do you know if it's seized? I can see some scenarios where it might not be as bad as as others. Let's say you broke a cam sprocket. You might have had a valve kiss a piston, but it's possible there's no damage to the head or block. The oil consumption thing is problematic. I would not want to tear it apart and not correct that issue. The spray bore pretty much limits you to a sleeved block if the bore is compromised. That liner is pretty tough, but there's nothing but aluminum below that microscopic surface. I would put H-beam rods in it, and you could get by with using the same stock pistons assuming you can get aftermarket rings for them. JDM machines Manley H-beam rods to use with the stock pistons on their builds, otherwise regular aftermarket rods won't work with the stock 13-14 pistons.

Any word on Bimini's short block?

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Catmonkey, I was scared to try to even turn it over after it happened. Towed it home and now the battery is dead so I can't even check. I think I'm going to do a leakdown and limited investigation and hope for the brightest of possible outcomes. If not, I'll sell it. My wife has had it with the modding. I've spent 40k when you consider tires, repeat tuning, parts and labor and she's just done with it. She said get a "stock" car. So I'm gonna sell this and buy a GT350R or a new GT500 (Stock, LOL). If anyone is interested in buying a project or you may know someone who is, I may list in soon. Gotta make the wife happy and me too, so gotta find compromise. She said if I come into a grip of cash I can start modding my "stock" car again, *!$% me.