2003 mach 1...want to setup for road racing

[Gray Ghost GT]

What do you guys think of running a t56 magnum with 3.73s? Not geared as tight as a 3650 and way smoother.

I would definitely go with a T56 Magnum (6 speed) over a 3650 (5 speed), but IMHO you won't like the 3.73 gears on most road courses. I tried the 3.73 and finally settled on the 3.42 in my Corvette C5 (T56 6 speed). I still think you're better off with the 3.55 gears in your Mustang with either the T56 or 3650. I use only 3rd and 4th gears in the Mustang with the 3.55 gears. You will probably use 5th gear too with the T56, but rarely ever use 6th gear. The Mustang FR500C Grand-Am Koni Challenge race car uses the T56 with 3.55 gears.
:beer:

 

[Fenixfire]

I would definitely go with a T56 Magnum (6 speed) over a 3650 (5 speed), but IMHO you won't like the 3.73 gears on most road courses. I tried the 3.73 and finally settled on the 3.42 in my Corvette C5 (T56 6 speed). I still think you're better off with the 3.55 gears in your Mustang with either the T56 or 3650. I use only 3rd and 4th gears in the Mustang with the 3.55 gears. You will probably use 5th gear too with the T56, but rarely ever use 6th gear. The Mustang FR500C Grand-Am Koni Challenge race car uses the T56 with 3.55 gears.
:beer:

Cool. That works for me. I dont mind goin to a 3.55 either. Right now, first and second gear are over so fast.

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

T56 magnum FTW. And what track did you do 185mph on in a mustang with 4.10's and your 5spd??

 

[cobra4b]

I ran on an open track day at the local track here. I was actually following a z06 until we got on the long straight. When we dropped the hammer guess who was faster. :rockon: I talked to him at the end of the day. My speedo only goes to 155. He said when I passed him he was doing 170. I hit 185 mph before hitting the brakes. He never got around me again. :shrug:

No you didn't.... a C5 Z06 will only do 172 at redline in 5th..... they slow down in 6th. Raise the redline to 7000 and bump the power and you can pull over 180, but I don't know of any road course in North America where you can hit those speeds in a car with less than 700 horse (the huge horse cars can do it at VIR).

Plus.... who cares? The whole point or road racing is that straight line speed isn't everything.... turning/braking/car dynamics are far more important.

I've had two mustangs.... I'll take the car I don't have to reverse engineer to go fast and the one that weights 2800 lbs vs. 3400-3800 so that all my consumables go farther :beer:

Now if you're loaded and don't mind droping a mustang off at a Griggs certified shop along with a $30,000 check you can make a Mustang one heck of a race car. But.... even after than a good driver in a mostly stock C5 Z06 will be every bit as fast.

Not trying to stir the pot... but there's something to be said for experience... I tried to make a mustang handle once... then I got serious and started buying the right tools for the job.

Here's video from NASA Oktoberfast last Sunday...

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Atoq_GviZ0"]YouTube - NASA Oktoberfast 2nd TT session Sunday[/nomedia]


The yellow RX-7 has a stock LS1 making 330ish rwhp (but it only weights 2600lbs), the blue STI finished 2nd in TTA with a 2:06.5 and the TTA winner was Scott Perkins in the red Corvette 3 cars ahead to start.... it's a '99 FRC (not even a Z06)... he ran a 2:05.9

There was a guy there running an ex Mustang Challenge car in TTA, but I thik he ran mid 2:teens, but I don't see him listed on the results sheet. The only Mustang listed ran a 2:18.

For TTS the prepped Corvettes, both old high-mileage C5s, ran a 2:01 and 2:03.... the closest Mustang was a AI SN-95 full race car unning 2:10s. If I had to setup a Mustang for road racing I'd find a notchback fox and build an all aluminum 302 based stroker.... add lightness :rockon:

TT results: http://www.nasaracing.net/VIR_Oct_10/Sun_Oct10_VIR_Combined_TT_Results.pdf

 

[racebronco2]

The thread is still about how to set-up his mustang, you don't need to convince us which car is a better road racing car.

 

[gmsux]

The Magnum is an awesome trans, drove one a while back and was very impressed. It's much smoother than my T56 which has the full host of carbon syncro's and all the other BS you can throw at one. Plus, it doesn't have the idle bearing slap/knock like mine does :-( I love the 6spd though, and the 2.66 first gear version is the one to have for OT use btw. The straight liners all talk 2.97+ first gear, not applicable for OT. As for gear ratio, some of it depends on the rpm range of the engine and the tracks you'll run. I'm currently running 4.10's with a 7800rpm redline and the only time I see the shift light (7400) is 2nd/3rd shifts. Never seen it in 4th on my local track. I've got a set of 4.30's I *might* install with a diff cooler I've had in a box for awhile. Since i drive the street mostly they could be fine and then I might be able to pass the new Z06 my friend has then. He's about 10% quicker overall, that's all.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

A Maximum Motorsport HD Torque Arm(1999-04 Mustang GT : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!) or a Griggs HD Torque Arm(Griggs Racing Products) are both excellent solutions to our crumby Fox platform 4 link quadrabind suspension.

I would try not to mix and match too much between brands. I would get the whole rear package and set it up for street/open track.

Then when you go to the strip take your front sway bar right off and disconnect the links on the rear(if it is that type). A Mustang with a rear bar only will probably oversteer in a borderline dangerous manner and undoing the links will put it back to a more safe and normal feel.

Steeda has a rear suspension kit also, the one I think is best(from them) is the five link, again use the whole kit per end of the car you are working on. http://www.steeda.com/faq/?View=entry&EntryID=10

I have not tried any of these, so I can not give you a preference, I am an IRS guy, but I have read about them and seen many full boogie race cars using all of the above with success.

Notice how there are no QA1 or UPR suggestions in this whole thread? There is a very good reason for that, they both suck for handling applications.

You can set up a car for road race/open track and still have an effective good hooking car at the drag strip. Setting up a drag car and going to an open track event however is going to SUCK! You will hate your set up. Going open track on the set up is only slightly compromising the drag strip fun.

If you think you might EVER want to do coil overs, which are the ultimate spring and damper solution, then don't buy any springs at all until you are ready to drop the big bucks for coil overs. Also do not but aluminum caster camber plates if you are going to ever run coil overs, buy the steel ones and buy the BEST ones you can afford. I personally like the MM ones.

We touched on cooling only slightly above so let me weigh in on this. A larger rad is not a bad idea it's just that by itself it will not be enough. Also when switching to a larger rad there is now more resistance for the cooling air to go through the thicker core. So if you are still using factory radiator air flow you will still over heat, you are at modded Terminator power levels so you will be in the same boat as us.

More air is the solution and the best, easiest way to get more air through is with a HEAVILY VENTED road race style hood(like this..http://www.tiger-racing.com/forsale/images/hood2.jpg),
a wider lower air dam, and a boxed in rad.
Even a Terminator hood does not drop the air pressure enough behind the rad to provide enough air flow to prevent over heating, at least not at about 533 rwhp (twin screw 2.3 whipple 3.50" pulley), I get two laps from the end of a twenty minute session in 80 degree weather and I have to shift up into 5th and milk a straight or two at about a hundred to blow some air through without loading heat in. Then I can get back on it and hammer in the corners where the fun is to be had anyway. It's a little frustrating though because that is when the Cayman S cars that I had passed catch back up and I have to point them by.

You should also know that because of the weight of these cars (even yours) they are very hard on tires, brake pads and rotors... in that order.

Make sure your cooling ducts are not blowing on the inside rotor face but only into the center section where the vent inlets are. Otherwise when you get faster you will be cracking them prematurely.

Realistically with the power AND weight that we have a 14" rotor, 4 piston caliper, BIG BRAKE KIT is pretty much needed. Then the pads and rotors would last significantly longer and the car would stop better also, the leverage increases brake torque, a good bit and the temps are lower.

Don't ditch your ABS! You will come to LOVE IT when you find yourself a little too deep for the speed you came in with and now the rears are unloaded more than you had planned on.
Definitely don't put big brakes on the rear, big mistake, complete waste of money IMHO. Cobra vented rears are plenty good enough, and I think Mach 1s may already have them.

I believe Mach 1s already have a 600 pound front spring, but I'm not sure.
I would track it with stock suspension while you save up to do it right with some of the race packages I suggested above.
You may find that you don't want to spend a ton of money on your current car at all. Though I will likely keep #539, I am looking at open track cars that I might be able to campaign for less money, which translates to LIGHTER!

It's always best to track a car fairly stock for a while so you can get a good taste of what it's like and what is it going to take for this car to make me happy in the future. You can't know that stuff without driving it first for a while.

One other thing, don't run sticky tires until you have been moved up into intermediate group AT LEAST! They will slow down your learning HORRIBLY!
Sticky tires also pretty much mandate the use of a road race specific oil pan, especially if your track has any banking.

OK that's it this post is already way too long.:bash:

 

[cobra4b]

^ Your post is exactly why I suggest to not wast time making a mustang a dual-use trackday/street car. Theyre just too heavy. Even when gutted theyre heavy (unless you have a notch fox or a SN-95)... heavy = eating consumables quickly.

Shariff of Forged Tuning has a TTU Nissan GTR. The car is seriously fast and runs sub 2:00 at VIR, but a set of 19 inch A6s are lucky to last a day and never last a weekend.... why? Because even with the interior out the car is 3600lbs. So to go fast your burning through $1400 tires every 1.5 days.

The other main issue is that superchargers are horrible for open track use... they heat soak quicky. The only supercharged car that I know of that can make it a full 30 minute stint w/o having to back off is the C6 ZR1 but thats because GM used the new 4-lobe rotor design and but a super HD cooling system on it.

As a rule NA is best and to make good NA power out of a modular ford cost big money. I can get a LS6 crate motor for $3200-$3400 complete, intake manifold to oil pan. In our Panoz race car I snapped the crank in the stock 5.0 shortblock (car has AFRs and an ed curtis cam and a pro-systems carb) at the GRM UTCC. A good 302 shortblock using a Boss iron block with 4-bolt mains costs $5200-$6000 just for the shortblock!

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

It's always best to track a car fairly stock for a while so you can get a good taste of what it's like and what is it going to take for this car to make me happy in the future. You can't know that stuff without driving it first for a while.

One other thing, don't run sticky tires until you have been moved up into intermediate group AT LEAST! They will slow down your learning HORRIBLY!Sticky tires also pretty much mandate the use of a road race specific oil pan, especially if your track has any banking.

Great advice! A common mistake is to jump into a set of mods without first baselining your setup - run it as close to stock as you can - so you can then assess what the car is doing and what performance upgrades you need. The 2nd mistake for novice drivers is to jump from street tires to R compound slicks. You'll learn valuable car control skills on a set of good street tires in HPDE 1, 2 and start of 3 (solo) that will actually make you faster when you are ready to move up to racing slicks. Think of it this way - if you learn to drive a momentum car before moving up to a high horsepower car, you'll learn techniques that will make you a much faster driver in the faster car. Same goes with street tires vs. slicks.
:beer:

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

^ Your post is exactly why I suggest to not wast time making a mustang a dual-use trackday/street car. Theyre just too heavy. Even when gutted theyre heavy (unless you have a notch fox or a SN-95)... heavy = eating consumables quickly.

Shariff of Forged Tuning has a TTU Nissan GTR. The car is seriously fast and runs sub 2:00 at VIR, but a set of 19 inch A6s are lucky to last a day and never last a weekend.... why? Because even with the interior out the car is 3600lbs. So to go fast your burning through $1400 tires every 1.5 days.

The other main issue is that superchargers are horrible for open track use... they heat soak quicky. The only supercharged car that I know of that can make it a full 30 minute stint w/o having to back off is the C6 ZR1 but thats because GM used the new 4-lobe rotor design and but a super HD cooling system on it.

As a rule NA is best and to make good NA power out of a modular ford cost big money. I can get a LS6 crate motor for $3200-$3400 complete, intake manifold to oil pan. In our Panoz race car I snapped the crank in the stock 5.0 shortblock (car has AFRs and an ed curtis cam and a pro-systems carb) at the GRM UTCC. A good 302 shortblock using a Boss iron block with 4-bolt mains costs $5200-$6000 just for the shortblock!

I run Fords, so although I will be out classed by Vettes when they are driven well, that's OK. Ford doesn't make a car that competes with Vettes.
I wish I could buy a Focus RS or a hotted up WRC Fiesta over here in the states for Mustang level money. I would be all over it! THAT WOULD BE A KICK ASS LITTLE light weight MONSTER! Maybe Ford will bring something like that to the states, then I won't have to switch brands and drive.... hmmm let's see... maybe a TURBO MIATA! Naaah I'm still looking at options and not in a big hurry. A used 2012 BOSS 302 would fill the bill nicely assuming they build enough and the price comes down some when they come up used.

 

[racebronco2]

^ Your post is exactly why I suggest to not wast time making a mustang a dual-use trackday/street car. Theyre just too heavy. Even when gutted theyre heavy (unless you have a notch fox or a SN-95)... heavy = eating consumables quickly.

Shariff of Forged Tuning has a TTU Nissan GTR. The car is seriously fast and runs sub 2:00 at VIR, but a set of 19 inch A6s are lucky to last a day and never last a weekend.... why? Because even with the interior out the car is 3600lbs. So to go fast your burning through $1400 tires every 1.5 days.

The other main issue is that superchargers are horrible for open track use... they heat soak quicky. The only supercharged car that I know of that can make it a full 30 minute stint w/o having to back off is the C6 ZR1 but thats because GM used the new 4-lobe rotor design and but a super HD cooling system on it.

As a rule NA is best and to make good NA power out of a modular ford cost big money. I can get a LS6 crate motor for $3200-$3400 complete, intake manifold to oil pan. In our Panoz race car I snapped the crank in the stock 5.0 shortblock (car has AFRs and an ed curtis cam and a pro-systems carb) at the GRM UTCC. A good 302 shortblock using a Boss iron block with 4-bolt mains costs $5200-$6000 just for the shortblock!

Mustangs are too heavy for a dual purpose and the c5 zo6's are to slow for a dual purpose. My car is a dual purpose, i open track it, take it to the street drags and the mojave mile runs. I'm about equal to the zo6's at the street drags and out mph them at the mojave mile, i am only 2-6 mph slower then the Zr1's. Tires last me about 6 weekends (12 days). A6's are a little too soft and will wear out quickly. Most people that i know are using the nt01's or the nt05's which costs 900.00 for a set.

I have not seen any ZR1's run in the hot weather in my area. Do you have any proof that the ZR1's don't get heatsoaked? I can tell you that my car runs cooler then most of the street vettes. Their oil temps are almost 300* and engine temps are in the 240's. My engine temps in 100* weather is 205*. I have modded 3 hoods so far and each of us run about the same temperatures. Just because a car has 4, 5 or 6 lobe rotors doesn't mean the engine going to run any cooler then a 3 lobe design. The more hp you have the more cooling you need regardless the type of forced induction you are using.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I run Fords, so although I will be out classed by Vettes when they are driven well, that's OK. Ford doesn't make a car that competes with Vettes.

Everything I own (or have owned) is a Ford except for the Corvette. F250 Super Duty, Ranger FX4, Probe GT, Mustang GT, Focus, etc.... Brian makes a valid point - by the time you add up all your new parts and labor to make an older Mustang "competitive" on the road course, its worth checking the classified adds for a used C5 Z06 for approx. $20K or less. Their a "turn key" car built for that type of driving - throw on some better brake pads and run it hard. It would be a mistake to knock the vette without having driven one first. Their almost too easy to drive fast anywhere on a course. I understand brand loyalty - you have a couple good options.

 

[racebronco2]

I am not knocking the vettes, but the discussion is a dual purpose mach 1 period. No reason to bring in the vette, gtr, panoz or any other car. I have driven vettes from the c5's to the blown c6's and a few zo6's. Also i have driven m3's including the v8 model which was modded, along with tt porshes, vipers just to name a few. The cost of most or these cars and maintenance are not within reach for most of us. The mustangs are cheap, reliable, most people can work on them themselves and parts are plentiful. With a blower most of these cars can keep up and in some cases out perform many of the supercars at the strip.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Fenixfire - keep us updated on your project. Another recommendation is to purchase a data logger - something like TraqMate - so you can record your lap and sector times so you can see how you're improving on the road courses, and measure the benefits of the mods as you install and tune them. The best mod is the 'nut' behind the wheel - seat time, seat time, seat time. Welcome to a new addiction! Mike

 

[Fenixfire]

Thanks for all the outstanding info guys! Im definitely going to take advantage of it. Ill keep you updated on what happens.

And Jimmy, you should take a look at the 2012 Focus ST. Looks absolutely badass with a killer interior. Will probly turn out to be a great track car.

 

[MGC]

I am not knocking the vettes, but the discussion is a dual purpose mach 1 period. No reason to bring in the vette, gtr, panoz or any other car. I have driven vettes from the c5's to the blown c6's and a few zo6's. Also i have driven m3's including the v8 model which was modded, along with tt porshes, vipers just to name a few. The cost of most or these cars and maintenance are not within reach for most of us. The mustangs are cheap, reliable, most people can work on them themselves and parts are plentiful. With a blower most of these cars can keep up and in some cases out perform many of the supercars at the strip.

+1, there is an appeal to some of us that want to outperform cars like that with a lowly mustang. oke: And as said earlier, it's not the car.. it's the driver.

OP- very good advice you've been given in here. Some key points I'd like to reiterate, square tires... the same size on all corners, you NEED a good brake system and cooling ducts, less power = less heat, you're going to be running for 20-30 minutes at a time at full tilt, less power will be easier on your engine. Weight, a lighter car is going to be less stressful on your brakes and tires and make it easier to navigate the turns, so take out whatever you don't need in there. Lastly, listen to the instructors and get a ride in their car if you can, they are there to help you, and most importantly have fun! That's what it's all about. Most likely, you will be humbled after you try it, I know I was... but as you get more seat time, you'll get faster. :thumbsup:

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

...Lastly, listen to the instructors and get a ride in their car if you can, they are there to help you, and most importantly have fun! That's what it's all about. Most likely, you will be humbled after you try it, I know I was... but as you get more seat time, you'll get faster. :thumbsup:

If you go into OT with an open mind and willingness to learn - leaving any ego at the entrance to the facility - you're going to have a great time and learn more about performance driving than you ever thought you would. It's amazing how many people "think" they know how to drive, only to be humbled after riding along with an instructor and then realize, "Hmmm, maybe I don't know as much as I thought I did." OT is primary about the driver - no doubt about it. It will take you awhile to max. out the potential of your Mustang once properly prepared, but eventually, the car will play a significant factor compared to others that you'll share the track with.
:beer:

 

[Monster Mach]

iv done my fair share of road racing fenix.. coming from another mach 1 lover.. get rid of the charger in general.. all motor is the way to go for road coarse.. do the suspension build SLOWLY.. you will get heat like crazy from any blower.. especially road coarse.. your going to be up in the rpms like crazy for extended amounts of time.. i suggest you start like i did to really like i did.. KARTING.. rotax or even sr sportsman

 

[brkntrxn]

I started this hobby with a triple purpose car: 554rwhp, ran low 11s at 120+ and would hold it's own on the road course. 99 Cobra with a Procharger and a list of parts a mile long. Pretty quick at the drag strip, pretty quick on the road course, and damn quick on the street. I had it all. And I worked on it ALL the freakin' time!

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/new-edge-cobras-51/530211-fi-back-na-build.html

I finally got smart after the car at the 3rd motor, dropped 200hp and got faster at the road course for it. I was slower at the drag strip, but who cares about straight line running after you take a hit on the trackpipe!

I won't get into the Mustang vs Corvette discussion, but you can see in my signature which car I currently run (and win with.. haven't been passed by a Mustang in a loooong time).


-Kevin
"been in your shoes before"