2003 mach 1...want to setup for road racing

[Fenixfire]

Hey guys, I have an 03 mach 1 with currently 100% stock suspension. Im not ready to touch the suspension yet, however, I do want to build the rearend(also stock save for 4.10 gears).

My plans are to eventually swap my eaton out for a whipple 2.9L once I upgrade the fuel and cooling capacity. My goal is to make around 650+ rwhp AT MY altitude(5300 ft. above sea level). I want to set the car up primarily for corner carving, but still be ok to take the drag strip once in awhile on some drag radials for a fun weekend. I know you cant set the car up for both. If I can run 10s at my altitude all day cutting 1.5-1.6 60 foots then thats really all im looking for on the drag side.

I still want the car built to handle like a dream through the twisties though. Since I am about to build the rearend my dilemma is this. How do I build the rearend to handle 650+ rwhp launches at the drag strip but still be competent running a road course? Obviously I will need a 4 link setup to get the suspension characteristics I want.

This is still gonna be a street car though and not an all out race car. I was thinking of going with a 31 spline setup with a detroit truetrac differential. Ive done some research and it seems to be a solid diff that is still great in the corners. For added strength I was thinking of doing axles with 9" tips but it would seem the 8.8 housing would be too short and would have to be retubed. There is also an issue with the brakes. Obviously brakes are very important in road racing so Im not sure if I should retain ABS or forgo it?

So, in summary, how do I build the rearend to be strong enough for 650+ hp and drag radials, but still allow for ucas/lcas, adj. shocks and struts with stiffer springs and swaybars?

 

[jbp99cobra]

I am assuming that you have never been on a road course before. Most people that do, never go back to a drag strip. If you have that much power, 4.10's are a waste, but to each his own.

 

[mu22stang]

A piece of advice that's worth its weight in gold: aftermarket upper control arms on a solid axle SN-95 Mustang are EXCLUSIVELY for driving in straight line. They will cause BIG problems on the road course.

Also, stiffer sway bars are not necessarily better. This is an easy concept for a drag racer to understand as they readily throw them to the curb in an effort to improve performance. Oddly enough, the same holds true for road course junkies.

Point being, you have the ability to become your worst enemy if you jump the gun and go on an aftermarket parts shopping spree. I know this is so cliché to say on a forum, but do yourself a favor and start searching this (Open Track Racing) forum or similar road racing centered forums exclusively for information on what to do and more importantly what not to do. The more seat time you have, the more informed you will become. The less you do to your car, the easier it will be to and understand and diagnose recurring handling characteristics. If your car, with all its fancy aftermarket parts and 650hp handles like a dog, is it your fault as a driver or your Frankenstein mess of a car?

Oh, and welcome to real performance driving. Once you get a couple of hits from the go-fast crack pipe, you will frequently lol at "driver mod" comments made by straight line racers. Having the reactions to save a nasty oversteer requires the skill and practice that can make a drag racer’s butt pucker.

 

[Fenixfire]

I am assuming that you have never been on a road course before. Most people that do, never go back to a drag strip. If you have that much power, 4.10's are a waste, but to each his own.

I should have mentioned that when I rebuild the rear ill be taking the 4.10s out and stepping down to 3.73s. The 4.10s came with the car. Yes, I need less gear.

A piece of advice that's worth its weight in gold: aftermarket upper control arms on a solid axle SN-95 Mustang are EXCLUSIVELY for driving in straight line. They will cause BIG problems on the road course.

Also, stiffer sway bars are not necessarily better. This is an easy concept for a drag racer to understand as they readily throw them to the curb in an effort to improve performance. Oddly enough, the same holds true for road course junkies.

Point being, you have the ability to become your worst enemy if you jump the gun and go on an aftermarket parts shopping spree. I know this is so cliché to say on a forum, but do yourself a favor and start searching this (Open Track Racing) forum or similar road racing centered forums exclusively for information on what to do and more importantly what not to do. The more seat time you have, the more informed you will become. The less you do to your car, the easier it will be to and understand and diagnose recurring handling characteristics. If your car, with all its fancy aftermarket parts and 650hp handles like a dog, is it your fault as a driver or your Frankenstein mess of a car?

Oh, and welcome to real performance driving. Once you get a couple of hits from the go-fast crack pipe, you will frequently lol at "driver mod" comments made by straight line racers. Having the reactions to save a nasty oversteer requires the skill and practice that can make a drag racer’s butt pucker.

Ya this is why Im doing my research BEFORE buying anything. I want to make sure I get it right. Ive been trying to find a good suspension expert I can talk to about setting it up properly for road racing.

I have been on a road course before, but never with proper suspension and tires. The mach 1s handle decently out of the box, especially for an sra car, but I know there is a BIG difference with proper suspension. I know how to set up a car for drag racing, but obviously my knowledge is extremely limited in how to set it up for road racing. Ive been to corner carvers but those guys are not very good at accepting new people trying to learn the intricacies of the sport.

As far as drag racing goes....I still have friends that would like to hit the strip on a weekend and I have a hard time just sitting and watching without making a couple passes in my car. Thats really about all it would be though. I know you cant set a car up to do both well and thats fine with me. Id rather it be a road racing machine anyway.

Ill do more searching and stuff. I was just hoping I could find someone that has been down this road with this platform and(as you said) can tell me whats good to do vs what isnt.

 

[daydark]

The thread I started 3 threads below this one is basically identical. Might want to start there.

 

[Fenixfire]

Definitely some good info in that thread! However, the differences between our cars is pretty big. IRS vs SRA......for one thing and im trying to find out how to setup the suspension around SRA for road racing. Im not willing to switch to an IRS setup partly because I want to keep the weight down and also because SRA has been proven, when setup properly, to be just as capable as IRS.

Other differences include an aluminum block vs the cobra iron block. Weight balance(including overall vehicle weight) is quite different in a mach 1 vs a cobra. Im thinking this would play a big part in the differences between how each handle?

Nevertheless, im reading up on the info that has been posted in there thus far.

 

[daydark]

Definitely some good info in that thread! However, the differences between our cars is pretty big. IRS vs SRA......for one thing and im trying to find out how to setup the suspension around SRA for road racing. Im not willing to switch to an IRS setup partly because I want to keep the weight down and also because SRA has been proven, when setup properly, to be just as capable as IRS.

Other differences include an aluminum block vs the cobra iron block. Weight balance(including overall vehicle weight) is quite different in a mach 1 vs a cobra. Im thinking this would play a big part in the differences between how each handle?

Nevertheless, im reading up on the info that has been posted in there thus far.

.... I've got a fully built SRA, & full drag suspension. My car weighs 3520 (3600 w/ rollcage), which I imagine is lighter than yours.

650hp on a track is pointless, especially with a square tire setup. You're going to need to pick.

 

[Fenixfire]

.... I've got a fully built SRA, & full drag suspension. My car weighs 3520 (3600 w/ rollcage), which I imagine is lighter than yours.

650hp on a track is pointless, especially with a square tire setup. You're going to need to pick.

My car currently weighs 3450 lbs without me in it and 3/4 tank of gas. No weight reduction other than spare tire removed. And yes, thats with the built motor, built tranny, eaton and supporting mods.

I will probly detune the car for track days. I want the whipple 2.9L because its alot cooler than a heaton, but still has insta-boost, haha. In order to hit 650 rwhp at this altitude will take 25+ lbs of boost and e85 even with a 2.9L whipple. Its hard to make power up here unless you are running turbo or nitrous. For the track Im looking at more around 12 lbs of boost and pump gas.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

My car currently weighs 3450 lbs without me in it and 3/4 tank of gas. No weight reduction other than spare tire removed. And yes, thats with the built motor, built tranny, eaton and supporting mods.

I will probly detune the car for track days. I want the whipple 2.9L because its alot cooler than a heaton, but still has insta-boost, haha. In order to hit 650 rwhp at this altitude will take 25+ lbs of boost and e85 even with a 2.9L whipple. Its hard to make power up here unless you are running turbo or nitrous. For the track Im looking at more around 12 lbs of boost and pump gas.

A Whipple will not be any cooler than an eaton on a roadcourse. Also, why do you want a 2.9L? The car will need to be detuned for track days. It will be no fun to drive, and will overheat at that power level.

You will need to make a decision about what you want your car to do. A drag setup will not run well on a roadcourse, but a roadcourse setup can run ok at the drag strip if you can drive it.

SRA rear suspension is pretty easy. Put a torque arm and a panhard rod in it, with spherical rear control arms and coilovers. You can do the front easily and cheap with coilovers, caster/camber plates, X2 ball joints and a bump steer kit.

 

[Fenixfire]

A Whipple will not be any cooler than an eaton on a roadcourse. Also, why do you want a 2.9L? The car will need to be detuned for track days. It will be no fun to drive, and will overheat at that power level.

You will need to make a decision about what you want your car to do. A drag setup will not run well on a roadcourse, but a roadcourse setup can run ok at the drag strip if you can drive it.

SRA rear suspension is pretty easy. Put a torque arm and a panhard rod in it, with spherical rear control arms and coilovers. You can do the front easily and cheap with coilovers, caster/camber plates, X2 ball joints and a bump steer kit.

The larger the displacement of the blower the lower the IAT temps are. Larger displacement blowers will not get as hot nor heatsoak as fast as a smaller displacement blower.

I spoke to whipple directly and they said their 2.9L blower is the perfect size for road racing. Its bigger than the 2.3 and wont generate as much heat because its spinning slower at lower boost than a 2.3 will. Its still not too big that even at low boost you arent out of its efficiency range. You can easily run two tunes with it. One low boost tune for track days with a bigger pulley and then one high boost tune with a smaller pulley when you want to make the big power.

 

[daydark]

Why did you even make this post? You already know it all man

 

[TXPD]

another point of view. i started my road course driving and racing with a professionally built 95 Cobra R. 330whp 370 wtq. learning on that was considered by many to be too advanced. after doing it, i would agree to some extent.

just keep in mind what you are doing. nascar nationwide series cars have the same hp that you are talking about. grand am mustangs have far less. the car itself is not engineered for that kind of hp particularly if you expect it to stop and then turn.

there's a reason macro hp number in road race cars are not a bragging point.

just remember. the faster you go and more hp you have on demand, the less forgiving your car will be, the more ways there are for the car to bite you, and the deeper the damage when it does bite you.

just be careful

 

[Ryan]

Why did you even make this post? You already know it all man

LOL Glad I'm not the only one thinking that...

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

The larger the displacement of the blower the lower the IAT temps are. Larger displacement blowers will not get as hot nor heatsoak as fast as a smaller displacement blower.

I spoke to whipple directly and they said their 2.9L blower is the perfect size for road racing. Its bigger than the 2.3 and wont generate as much heat because its spinning slower at lower boost than a 2.3 will. Its still not too big that even at low boost you arent out of its efficiency range. You can easily run two tunes with it. One low boost tune for track days with a bigger pulley and then one high boost tune with a smaller pulley when you want to make the big power.

Enjoy being passed by miatas and spending half of every session in limp mode. :beer: More HP equals more heat... period.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

another point of view. i started my road course driving and racing with a professionally built 95 Cobra R. 330whp 370 wtq. learning on that was considered by many to be too advanced. after doing it, i would agree to some extent.

just keep in mind what you are doing. nascar nationwide series cars have the same hp that you are talking about. grand am mustangs have far less. the car itself is not engineered for that kind of hp particularly if you expect it to stop and then turn.

there's a reason macro hp number in road race cars are not a bragging point.

just remember. the faster you go and more hp you have on demand, the less forgiving your car will be, the more ways there are for the car to bite you, and the deeper the damage when it does bite you.

just be careful

This is gold.

 

[Fenixfire]

Why did you even make this post? You already know it all man

I didnt claim to know it all........or know anything for that matter. I just stated what I was told by whipple is all.

 

[Fenixfire]

another point of view. i started my road course driving and racing with a professionally built 95 Cobra R. 330whp 370 wtq. learning on that was considered by many to be too advanced. after doing it, i would agree to some extent.

just keep in mind what you are doing. nascar nationwide series cars have the same hp that you are talking about. grand am mustangs have far less. the car itself is not engineered for that kind of hp particularly if you expect it to stop and then turn.

there's a reason macro hp number in road race cars are not a bragging point.

just remember. the faster you go and more hp you have on demand, the less forgiving your car will be, the more ways there are for the car to bite you, and the deeper the damage when it does bite you.

just be careful

I see your point. Im not going for max HP at all for the road track. I want to get away from the eaton more than anything really. Whats the most common setup for road racing termi's on the track?

 

[ac427cobra]

I see your point. Im not going for max HP at all for the road track. I want to get away from the eaton more than anything really. Whats the most common setup for road racing termi's on the track?

Bigger pulley, bigger rad & HE, de-tune. :-D

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I see your point. Im not going for max HP at all for the road track. I want to get away from the eaton more than anything really. Whats the most common setup for road racing termi's on the track?

Ported eaton and no smaller than a 2.93 upper pulley unless you have a vented hood or other cooling mods.

I run a 3.1 upper and a ported eaton. 475 WHP at 10 lbs of boost. IATs are never over 150 degrees, and the car never overheats.

A bigger radiator is not really needed. The key is to get air flow in and out of the radiator more efficiently

 

[Fenixfire]

Ported eaton and no smaller than a 2.93 upper pulley unless you have a vented hood or other cooling mods.

I run a 3.1 upper and a ported eaton. 475 WHP at 10 lbs of boost. IATs are never over 150 degrees, and the car never overheats.

A bigger radiator is not really needed. The key is to get air flow in and out of the radiator more efficiently

I have the even flow cooling mod. I havent had any heat issues, but I havent beat on it for extended periods of time either. I dont know what I am at right now. Im getting it dyno tuned either today or tomorrow. I made 476 whp with a 3.1 pulley, non ported eaton and 9 lbs of boost. I now have full exhaust with LTs, CAI and cams advanced 4 degrees. Will see what the new numbers are. Not sure what I picked up, if anything.