Air/Fuel Ratio Good??

[UnleashedBeast]

You know I looked back through my logs and at certain points the knock sensors pull about a degree of timing. This may allow the newer cars to run a little harder with the factory knock sensors. Someone with more knowledge on this feel free to chime in.

This is what I was thinking about while being away from the computer the last few hours. It must be the knock sensors that make it possible to advance the timing this aggressive on 91 octane.


I see where it was giving you knock retard, and the knock sensors look to be very active as you increase RPM. I don't know...it just looks too aggressive to me.

One way to see if the knock is excessive.....add Torco to 4 gallons of 91 octane to create ~100 octane (make sure tank is almost empty). If your data log shows little to no knock, or no knock retard...you know the timing is too aggressive for 91 octane.

 

[NightRide]

This is what I was thinking about while being away from the computer the last few hours. It must be the knock sensors that make it possible to advance the timing this aggressive on 91 octane.


I see where it was giving you knock retard, and the knock sensors look to be very active as you increase RPM. I don't know...it just looks too aggressive to me.

One way to see if the knock is excessive.....add Torco to 4 gallons of 91 octane to create ~100 octane (make sure tank is almost empty). If your data log shows little to no knock, or no knock retard...you know the timing is too aggressive for 91 octane.

As I'm new to this whole tuning thing, I don't know if it necessarly hurts anything if the knock sensors are pulling a degree of timing, I think that's what the purpose of them is.

So you think when I update my tune for my off road pipe maybe get it kicked down to 21-22 degrees to be on the safe side?

 

[F8L SN8K]

I think you should take tuning advise from the guy who does it for a living ;-)

 

[NightRide]

I think you should take tuning advise from the guy who does it for a living ;-)

Point taken, it's still nice to get more than one opinion, don't you think?

 

[F8L SN8K]

Agreed that it's good to get more then one opinion. I tend to take my information from people that are actual certified professionals and/or with a lot of personal experience and not self proclaimed "gurus" that got their education from interweb forums and simply regurgitate information they read from some guy some where.

With that being said I do not tune my own cars. I will start tuning my CJ with some help from other experienced people with Big Stuff 3.

Maybe just runs them a fat for safety due to the aggressive timing and let's the knock sensors catch anything that starts to detonate. I do not know what his logic was on his tune for you. If you are unsure of your tuners capabilities or simply want others expert opinions I'd give a handful of tuners a call and ask them what they recommend.

Just like being diagnoised at the doctor. I wouldn't go the doctor and then ask what Web MD/google or my aunt Betty and her bridge partners thought. I'd ask other doctors to see if they concur. JMO

 

[UnleashedBeast]

I think you should take tuning advise from the guy who does it for a living ;-)

I have a large back ground in HPTuners for LSx cars, and most of it translates over.

I agree that there are others far better to answer these questions than I, but that is why I asked the question....

Does anyone have additional knowledge on the new 2011+ 5.4L engine that allows this aggressive of spark on 91 octane fuel? I have not heard of this much spark advance on pump gas tunes with this engine, nor the previous iron block version. If it's the "let's rely on the knock sensor" theory...why do that? What happens if the knock sensors fails?

 

[NightRide]

Agreed that it's good to get more then one opinion. I tend to take my information from people that are actual certified professionals and/or with a lot of personal experience and not self proclaimed "gurus" that got their education from interweb forums and simply regurgitate information they read from some guy some where.

With that being said I do not tune my own cars. I will start tuning my CJ with some help from other experienced people with Big Stuff 3.

Maybe just runs them a fat for safety due to the aggressive timing and let's the knock sensors catch anything that starts to detonate. I do not know what his logic was on his tune for you. If you are unsure of your tuners capabilities or simply want others expert opinions I'd give a handful of tuners a call and ask them what they recommend.

Just like being diagnoised at the doctor. I wouldn't go the doctor and then ask what Web MD/google or my aunt Betty and her bridge partners thought. I'd ask other doctors to see if they concur. JMO

Ok, let me clarify a little more, I've already sent these logs to another expert in the field just waiting to hear back. I'm asking the guys on here to get a better idea on what to ask about and what is being run on their cars. Kind of gives me better discussion points on tuning my car than, duh ok whatever you say.

If you have something against UB that's your own deal. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm pretty new to the forum. UB has already been helpful to me a couple of times in my short time here soooooo. Do I take one persons word as the gospel truth, no. I ask around, talk to different people and wait.... isnt' that how we all become educated on these cars. :beer:

 

[F8L SN8K]

Kinda vein to think that my post was specifically directed at UB. Although it is no secret that me and unleashed have differences of opinions on subjects but I've had differences in opinions with many others on here as well.

It's very important to compare experiences and gained knowledge that we have accumulated over our lives. It's important to also take everything on the Internet with a grain of salt. Believe it or not I kinda agree with UB and the others with their suggestions. However I'm not a professional tuner with personal experience tuning with all the new combinations that's why I gave my suggestion on asking the experts as to their experiences with your combination to have better information as to if the tune should be altered. There a lot of questions I ask my tuner beyond A/F and spark. Based on the answers I receive and what I have learned is important and trusting their experience and judgment I choose a tuner and stick with what he says. It's still good to talk through things with other owners that may bring some things that may have been overlooked on questions that should be asked of the professionals.

Just appeared to me that you where gung-ho on changing everything around based on a thread filled with 90% non expert opinions. So I simply piped in as to get others people opinions that are trained higher-ups who do it for a living.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

F8L is right, let the experts be the final judge.

The logs just shocked me when I saw that much advance with 91 octane. Most tunes I have seen require E-85 or high octane leaded race fuel to achieve spark advance that high in a supercharged 5.4L modular.

Damn, this thread is making me really jealous of the built in abilities of the newer aluminum block 5.4L engines.

 

[F8L SN8K]

The new engine management computers are certainly complex incredible marvels thats for sure UB. We've come a very long way from the EEC-V push-rod or speed density days. It amazes me every year they all get better. The 10 got Knock sensors also which is one of the reasons why they make more power with FRPP with the extra safety net. Got to love how much different the modular is then the other engine platforms. It's amazing what these small displacement engines can do and handle. It's easy for us to be jaded. Lol. It's like what John Mohovetz says take everything you know about engines and through it out the window with these modulars they are there own animals in which we are all still learning and breaking new ground everyday. We all are very lucky IMO to have the technical support and engineering that us Mustang people are spoiled with.

 

[NightRide]

The other expert just got back with me. All is good i was just using the wrong formula to calculate my values. Learned alot about what to look for with this thread, thanks guys.

 

[IA Shelby]

The other expert just got back with me. All is good i was just using the wrong formula to calculate my values. Learned alot about what to look for with this thread, thanks guys.

So what did they other expert say about the spark advance?? Is it because the advanced knock sensors on the 11. Nothing to worry about?

Thanks

 

[UnleashedBeast]

In a nut shell, yes....

The addition of factory wideband and knock sensor provided an extra level of safety net that allows for a much more aggressive tune. Yet again, I'm jealous and thinking about trading up. lol

 

[cluscher]

If it's the "let's rely on the knock sensor" theory...why do that? What happens if the knock sensors fails?

Still subscribing to this theory. You get anymore insight as to why the more aggressive approach is the preference?

 

[NightRide]

In a nut shell, yes....

The addition of factory wideband and knock sensor provided an extra level of safety net that allows for a much more aggressive tune. Yet again, I'm jealous and thinking about trading up. lol

I wouldn't be you would still get me pretty good from a roll, lol. Thanks again for taking a look at my logs and posting them.

 

[NightRide]

Still subscribing to this theory. You get anymore insight as to why the more aggressive approach is the preference?

From the way it was explained to me the factory wideband and knock sensor work together to make sure the timing, A/F is correct. They said the tune is on the safe side and could be pushed further. I don't compete with my car or anything other than taking out the occassional Vette. :lol1: Another thing to think about, some tunes/tuners turn off the knock sensors all together.