All you running wide tires are doing it wrong!!!!

[kevin01cobra]

He is right, you are just ignorant/wrong.
Statics state:
Friction = Coefficient of friction * Normal force
Force(weight of car) / area of contact = Lets say x(psi)
The simplest way to look at this it to take a 1 square inch of surface.
The psi of the smaller tire will be larger than the bigger tire due to Area being smaller.
The normal force will be the equal and opposite of the force on the 1 square inch of surface.
The bigger normal force(smaller tire) will have more static friction. Once you break traction you start to look at something totally different (more factors) so in theory he is right.

 

[GOTSVT?]

I roll on 15's not 18's SIR! : )

 

[manOwar]

I roll on 15's not 18's SIR! : )

Click the link Honey Hoe!!:rolling:

 

[GOTSVT?]

I dont see a 325 fitting without hitting the QA1's
I run a weld 15x10 with 275's on there now
Nevermind, Im comparing a bias ply to a radial

 

[manOwar]

I dont see a 325 fitting without hitting the QA1's
I run a weld 15x10 with 275's on there now
Nevermind, Im comparing a bias ply to a radial

Andy is running 325's with QA1's... Check the section width, the 325 is 1.6 inches wider than the 275.

 

[VaporSnake]

He is right, you are just ignorant/wrong.
Statics state:
Friction = Coefficient of friction * Normal force
Force(weight of car) / area of contact = Lets say x(psi)
The simplest way to look at this it to take a 1 square inch of surface.
The psi of the smaller tire will be larger than the bigger tire due to Area being smaller.
The normal force will be the equal and opposite of the force on the 1 square inch of surface.
The bigger normal force(smaller tire) will have more static friction. Once you break traction you start to look at something totally different (more factors) so in theory he is right.

he is right to an extent about the static friction forces but the main debate was about whether a novice racer with no driving skills on a basically stock setup gt500 should be running a 305 vs 275... and this kids support quoted physics which is great for static friction forces but when you start to factor rotational torque overcoming the friction forces and whether or not the tire is warm enough sticky enough track is prepped right... basically the point i was arguing with him is that since he be dumb dumb driver with not all the "perfect" skills that he should run a wider tire to overcome his lack of skill but he think just cause the professionals and long time racers do it he can do it too... if need be i can post the WHOOOOLLLLLLEEEE conversation for the fewing pleasures of those who are interested it was quite entertaining...

brian

 

[cgouzoulis]

Wll ima doin it all wrong too!!!! lol someone help me ....I need another spare tire for the rear....195's for an 11 second pass:banana:

 

[F8L SN8K]

he is right to an extent about the static friction forces but the main debate was about whether a novice racer with no driving skills on a basically stock setup gt500 should be running a 305 vs 275... and this kids support quoted physics which is great for static friction forces but when you start to factor rotational torque overcoming the friction forces and whether or not the tire is warm enough sticky enough track is prepped right... basically the point i was arguing with him is that since he be dumb dumb driver with not all the "perfect" skills that he should run a wider tire to overcome his lack of skill but he think just cause the professionals and long time racers do it he can do it too... if need be i can post the WHOOOOLLLLLLEEEE conversation for the fewing pleasures of those who are interested it was quite entertaining...

brian

Hmm you might want to edit this if arguing someone else "be dumb"
But this was a good VIEWING pleasure
I R smart.

Besides real tires don't have numbers like this in drag racing they say 10.5 and etc

 

[BADASS03SVT]

its not a matter of size...its running the right tire for the wheel you have. if your running a 315 on a 10" wheel....the tire really isn't working any better than a 295 or 275 would. see sig for example....lol..:beer:

 

[VaporSnake]

Hmm you might want to edit this if arguing someone else "be dumb"
But this was a good VIEWING pleasure
I R smart.

Besides real tires don't have numbers like this in drag racing they say 10.5 and etc

lol :beer: yay for typing on cell phone... lol my bad

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

M&H 275/55-16's hook... They've bent my new Moser Axles and ARP Studs.

do work son! lol

he is right to an extent about the static friction forces but the main debate was about whether a novice racer with no driving skills on a basically stock setup gt500 should be running a 305 vs 275... and this kids support quoted physics which is great for static friction forces but when you start to factor rotational torque overcoming the friction forces and whether or not the tire is warm enough sticky enough track is prepped right... basically the point i was arguing with him is that since he be dumb dumb driver with not all the "perfect" skills that he should run a wider tire to overcome his lack of skill but he think just cause the professionals and long time racers do it he can do it too... if need be i can post the WHOOOOLLLLLLEEEE conversation for the fewing pleasures of those who are interested it was quite entertaining...

brian

big fat tires can be a band-aid for lack of driving skills:idea: frankly, he's better off starting out on smaller tires, it'll make him a better driver in the end. it'll help out at the big end too, if you can hook up off the line then there will be less rolling resistance(and marginally less frontal area, lower drag) at the big end. either way, this dude isn't the idiot you keep saying he is.
by your logic, V6 mustangs should be mini-tubbed and rolling on full wrinkle wall slicks. don't want to blow those tires off at the line:dw:


edit...

Q: For us non-physics guys, please explain F=uN.

A: F, the forward force that accelerates your car, is the product of "u", which is the traction coefficient for a given pair of materials (in this case rubber on asphalt) times the "downforce" ("N") of the drive wheels on the road. The width of the tire is never in this calculation. The only reason wider tires can help is they can increase the "effective u" just a little, not a lot.


Wide tires are far more "show" than "go," no matter how much our egos want to disagree with that. The bottom line is g’s, and we’ve done a lot of testing in this area. The data should speak for itself, and correspond to tests on the street. Track conditions are typically better. The lowest traction limits we’ve measured are all on front-wheel-drive cars. This is because of the weight transfer offthe drive wheels when accelerating. They’re always between .40g and .50g.

Rear-wheel drive vehicles fare better. Most pickup trucks generate between .48 and .52g, thanks to in-optimized weight distribution. Non-posi cars are again a little better. They typically generate a maximum of .50 to .55g almost every time. We tested a Ford Crown Victoria with 215mm rubber, and it would spin the right rear at .50g. Next test was a ‘66 Mustang Coupe with 195mm rubber, which spun ‘em at .53g. A Volvo wagon (195mm tires) spins the right rear at .55g. This Mustang Fastback, with a posi and BFG radial T/A tires (215 mm) pulled .54g before the changes, and with the battery in the trunk now pulls .55 to .56g. Grand National Buicks (with posi) usually got .55g, 5.0L Mustangs (225mm, with posi) get .56 to .59g. My friend Rich has a ‘69 Super Bee, good posi, 215mm BFG’s, and pulls .57g before they spin. Note that these are not big differences from the best to the worst!

Now for some wide tire data: my friend John has a ’66 Nova with 275mm rubber and a good posi, yet it pulls .53 g max, right in there with my skinny-tired ’66 Mustang. Rich also owns a Hemi Charger with 275mm rubber, which can’t generate more than .55g, which you’ll note is less than his Super Bee does on 215s. That’s because he has played the weight distribution game on the Super Bee.

Highest street tire numbers ever? Weight distribution is a player. New Z28s (245 mm) commonly pull .62g max. My friend Shirl has a ‘79 Corvette (245 mm) pulls .65g on street tires.

See where I’m going here? There’s no magic "factor of two" yet. Honestly, even a posi only seems worth .05g or so (10 percent). How many guys do we run into that think a posi will double their traction?

Want to see big improvements? Change the tire compound. My friend Dave bought some BFG Drag Radials for his 5.0L Mustang. His 225mm street tires spin at .59g every time, yet his 235mm Drag Radials consistently pulled .68g. That’s 15 percent! A co-worker brought in his NSX with 245mm race tires, and thanks to the combined help of its mid-engine layout, we were measuring .75 g launches, over and over again!


I’m not saying that wider tires would hurt, I’m just arguing that they’re far more for show than go. They wouldn’t double the traction. Or add 50 percent, or even 25 percent. The max we’re talking is probably under 10 percent. So without tubbing the car, I can probably squeak in some 245mm tires if I had to. By trying to play the testosterone factor low on this car, my best money will go towards a set of drag radials, and selectively moving weight to the rear, not tubbing the car and running 315mm street tires.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/turbo_tech_q_and_a_supercharger_comparison/index.html
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/98518_1966_ford_mustang_fastback/index.html
12.14@121, 535HP, 620lb-ft, on 215 BFG street tires.

 

[realm187]

I'm running 305's, so i'm doing it wrong. Oh well.

 

[Baby Gorilla]

Interesting reading. I was going to widen my stock rear wheels (Weldcraft) to move from 285s to 305s, but maybe I'll try better rubber first and see where that gets me. Is an extra 2 cm of width going to make that much of a difference?

Also, most of this discussion has centered around drag applications. I am more interested in road tracking. Do the same theories apply?

 

[kleistang]

i think he is right to a point but anyway if you have more surface you would definitely hook better. lets say he is right and the drag of a wider tire would slow you down, but it would also depend on the distance that you would be traveling which in a 1/4 or 1/8 mile race i think it would not be much.

me i'd stick to better launch with lower mph at the end than having the possibility of over launching the car and sniping with a narrower tire.

i went trough the same thing with my s197. with 28x10.5 slicks i was able to go 7.5s all day long hooking death on and very consistent. i switched to 255/60/15 and was able to run the same times but it was less consistent i use to spin out the whole many times. switched to 275/60/15 and it got a little better.

i did over 400 passes on the car so i can tell you that the wider tires and hooking death on for me works better

 

[Gojira]

Well hate to break this to you with out getting to involved in the physics of it here and then turning this into a days long back and forth banter. But the kid is 100% correct and not just in theory. The kid may not know how to explain it well but I know what he is trying to say and he is right. And yes a wider tire can slow you down from both its width and its weight.

 

[Gojira]

basically the point i was arguing with him is that since he be dumb dumb driver with not all the "perfect" skills that he should run a wider tire to overcome his lack of skill but he think just cause the professionals and long time racers do it he can do it too...

How is a wider tire going to help him overcome his lack of skill? the 305 is not going to give him more traction than the 275. so therefore a wider tire is not going to help him overcome his lack of skill.

this kid may not be a perfect driver but he knows what he is talking about when it comes to the "wider is better" myth about tires.

 

[white_gt500]

hmm interesting reading, in that case on topic kind of what do u guys run or prefer for a better replacement tire on the gt500's other then the stock goodyear F1's, i was looking at the kdw II's but rather get some input from ppl running diff tires out here?

 

[Gojira]

hmm interesting reading, in that case on topic kind of what do u guys run or prefer for a better replacement tire on the gt500's other then the stock goodyear F1's, i was looking at the kdw II's but rather get some input from ppl running diff tires out here?

Go with a drag radial. No normal compund tire is ever gonna hook up worth a crap on the street. With that said the answer to you next question is "Yes". ssome drag radials are better than other. But all of them are better than a regular compund tire. So to make it simple just pick a D/R that has the the size you want and the tread you like.

 

[white_gt500]

Go with a drag radial. No normal compund tire is ever gonna hook up worth a crap on the street. With that said the answer to you next question is "Yes". ssome drag radials are better than other. But all of them are better than a regular compund tire. So to make it simple just pick a D/R that has the the size you want and the tread you like.

good deal, im gonna have to start looking in a couple of months and trying to get my info down b4 deciding

 

[Corepuncher]

I am fairly new to all this, and have a 2011 GT500. I got my car in July and was hooking great with the stock F1's (285's). Now that it has cooled from 100 to 70 every day, it's night and day.

I just bought a new set of rims (9" fronts, 10.5" rear) that came with KDW2's...255 front 285 rear. Stock was 9.5 all around and 265/285.

My initial impression was to get wider tires on back but now I'm not sure at all.

Just a quick poll...should I stay with 285's or go wider? Talking street here, not really track.

If a tire is wider I assume you will have more contact, but, weight per unit area would be decreased, and so would friction. A skinnier tire would have more force per unit area and therefore more "grab" wouldn't it? So doesn't it really boil down to how the tire grabs under weight? Imagine a tire the width of a bicycle tire (haha I know). Very small contact patch but the force per unit area would be immense.

No matter how wide the tire, those two wheels have to support the weight of the car, which does not change. So really I'm thinking it boils down to not width, but the compound used and it's ability to grip under pressure. So forget width and go for better material?

Material wise, do KDW's or F1's have better compounds as far as grabbing the road? And assuming neither are optimal, someone throw me out the to 1 or 2 daily driver but grippy brands. Thanks!