Coyote Woes

[earico]

I bought my 2018 5.0 truck brand new with 40 miles on it and I beat the shit out of it since day one. I went and did mexico pulls took it to the track and did bolt on's and had it tuned. I noticed it used a little oil in the first 1000 miles but after that It's been great. I really think you have to break these motors in hard to get the rings to seat.

I think you may be right. Nissan has been using Ford's spray in liner tech on the GTR since it came out in 2008. First thing they do off the production line is run it through a gauntlet coarse and run it's balls off. They haven't had this issue.

Or maybe Ford hasn't figured out the correct ring gap to use with these liners. I would think the spray in bore heats up and expands at a different rate than a steel liner and that would have to be accounted for. Dunno. Just a WAG.

 

[gimmie11s]

Lookup 1320chicks videos and you'll see when they tore the motor down, the E85 was eating at the top of the cylinder walls.

FWIW, I have a 2015 Coyote long block sitting in my garage right now with a pin hole in the piston. It ran still. I believe the iron lined motors are fantastic. The new style, not at all.

Also, I would consider my abysmal experience with the brand, how they've handled the shit engine, and Ford's response to me owning a 40k dollar paperweight, is first hand experience.

Fair enough.

Do you think the Voodoo and the condor/trinity motors are “shit engines” too?


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[earico]

I would consider my abysmal experience with the brand, how they've handled the shit engine, and Ford's response to me owning a 40k dollar paperweight, is first hand experience.

I get that you're upset. I really do. Shit happens though and they are owning it and paying to put a new motor in your truck. Seems to me they are trying to make it right.

 

[RedVenom48]

Piston rings and Canadians making the engines are the real culprit here. Just a guess



Just kidding about the rings, they are probably fine.

 

[bdcardinal]

I wonder what the tension rating is on the oil control ring?

The shop manual says the groove width is 1.22, 1.22, 2.03mm which is pretty normal. It also notes there is a Grafal coating which is only used by Mahle, so they are the OEM vendor. The oil control ring gap is .15-.45mm

 

[Blk04L]

I get that you're upset. I really do. Shit happens though and they are owning it and paying to put a new motor in your truck. Seems to me they are trying to make it right.

Pretty much. At least they aren't fighting him every step of the way when it comes to resolving it and are giving him a new longblock.

Edit, I've had the Lightning body removed countless times rebuilding the engine and for other fun bills. Zero issues with them getting it back to as good as before.

Can't be stuck thinking of the worst case scenario every step of the way in this process.

 

[IronSnake]

Fair enough.

Do you think the Voodoo and the condor/trinity motors are “shit engines” too?


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Nope. Voodoo I think is built fast and loose. Which is what it is meant to do. Oil consumption on a performance engine makes sense. Trinity motors are an interesting engineering feat, and have been proven to be solid.

What i'm talking about is a truck engine. One that should be designed to last for 200k+ miles like all of the trucks before it. This one isn't even making it 6k miles.

I get that you're upset. I really do. Shit happens though and they are owning it and paying to put a new motor in your truck. Seems to me they are trying to make it right.

The dealership has been great. I have no beef with them, and have continued to give them 5 stars. My issue is with Ford, who either doesn't care, understand, or want to handle the situation. These motors are on back order for 30 days for a reason. Something is wrong with the design, and they can't even build the replacement engines quick enough.

What it's looking like based on my initial questions, is I have to drive the truck 2k more miles before the motor gets swapped, so about a month and a half for me. After that, the motors order, so that's 30 days minimum after the month and a half. Then the truck gets taken from me, I get a loaner, and two weeks later (if all goes well), I get my truck back.

So while Ford is putting motors in these trucks, and costing them butt loads of money, I am looking at 3 months of my life wasted. It swallowed a 1/2 quart in the last 200 miles. I don't know about y'all, but I wouldn't bet on this truck towing or going on a road trip anytime soon. It's effectively a paper weight.

 

[earico]

Nope. Voodoo I think is built fast and loose. Which is what it is meant to do. Oil consumption on a performance engine makes sense. Trinity motors are an interesting engineering feat, and have been proven to be solid.

What i'm talking about is a truck engine. One that should be designed to last for 200k+ miles like all of the trucks before it. This one isn't even making it 6k miles.



The dealership has been great. I have no beef with them, and have continued to give them 5 stars. My issue is with Ford, who either doesn't care, understand, or want to handle the situation. These motors are on back order for 30 days for a reason. Something is wrong with the design, and they can't even build the replacement engines quick enough.

What it's looking like based on my initial questions, is I have to drive the truck 2k more miles before the motor gets swapped, so about a month and a half for me. After that, the motors order, so that's 30 days minimum after the month and a half. Then the truck gets taken from me, I get a loaner, and two weeks later (if all goes well), I get my truck back.

So while Ford is putting motors in these trucks, and costing them butt loads of money, I am looking at 3 months of my life wasted. It swallowed a 1/2 quart in the last 200 miles. I don't know about y'all, but I wouldn't bet on this truck towing or going on a road trip anytime soon. It's effectively a paper weight.

You have let your emotions control how you are going to perceive this experience. You think dropping all Ford products is the answer because of one bad experience albeit one that will be corrected. Every damn car manufacturer has minor and sometimes major issues. Go ahead get a Toyota truck they're great except all those rusted out frames. Lol. Ford has had plenty of F ups during your loyalty years too. Shit 5.4 3vs, plugs popping out of 03 Terminators, 6.0 Powerstroke, 6.4 Powerstroke and on and on. No maker is perfect and IMO you're just being a bit stubborn because it happens to be your turn.

 

[IronSnake]

You have let your emotions control how you are going to perceive this experience. You think dropping all Ford products is the answer because of one bad experience albeit one that will be corrected. Every damn car manufacturer has minor and sometimes major issues. Go ahead get a Toyota truck they're great except all those rusted out frames. Lol. Ford has had plenty of F ups during your loyalty years too. Shit 5.4 3vs, plugs popping out of 03 Terminators, 6.0 Powerstroke, 6.4 Powerstroke and on and on. No maker is perfect and IMO you're just being a bit stubborn because it happens to be your turn.

Dad seems to feel the same way. And so I've taken a lot of that into consideration too. Trying to be reasonable.

My main issue is there is absolutely zero guarantee that the new motor will be any better than the last. At this point, with Ford being pretty much quiet, I have no reason to trust them that it would be better. If they came out and said "yea, we messed up. Spray in liner machine did xyz issue" then I would say okay cool, new motor will be good to go. But people are getting new motors and even those are getting replaced too.

Not really interested in signing up for 3 rounds of engines until lemon law. Lifes too short for that.

 

[IronSnake]

Good example of a guy just having his 5.0 motor replaced. Shows up to pick it up, and it's rattling. Now he's locked in lemon law.

WWYD? First Month Engine Trouble - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans

This happened in the last few weeks. Doesn't give me much confidence in fixing it.

 

[earico]

Good example of a guy just having his 5.0 motor replaced. Shows up to pick it up, and it's rattling. Now he's locked in lemon law.

WWYD? First Month Engine Trouble - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans

This happened in the last few weeks. Doesn't give me much confidence in fixing it.

I honestly see your concern and I'd have some reservations also. However if they are trying to make it right then why boycott? That's the point I'm making. Ford has done you well for years.

Side note...life is full of inconveniences. My son just got rear-ended and his car totalled. We can't put him in a reimbursed rental because he's 16. Now we are hauling him around everywhere. Insurance will likely not offer what it was worth either. 2002 WRX with 60k miles that was mint. Probably gonna need to lawyer up. He was minding his own business stopped at a red light. Shit happens.

 

[Coiled03]

No more new cars for us. Not after this. Going to find a mid 90's 7.3 truck and just stop pretending that I need an expensive fancy truck.

Fair enough. Just sounds like you're trading one set of problems for another, though. It's not like 20-yr old vehicles are reliable. Maybe you don't have to swap engines, but you'll have plenty of maintenance to do. If that's your cup of tea, go for it.

 

[RedVenom48]

Id want to see the liners in the old block before I condemn the new PTWA process. @earico is correct that the Nissan GT-R has been using the technology for well over a decade now, and we know what kind of power they put down. Same process Ford uses since, well, Ford and Flame Spray developed the process.

I wouldnt put it past the Ontario plant having a case of the new process jitters on PTWA on a mass scale. Or simply its a bad ring specification.

Earico, what kind of power can those GT-Rs typically handle before sleeves are recommended?

 

[earico]

Id want to see the liners in the old block before I condemn the new PTWA process. @earico is correct that the Nissan GT-R has been using the technology for well over a decade now, and we know what kind of power they put down. Same process Ford uses since, well, Ford and Flame Spray developed the process.

I wouldnt put it past the Ontario plant having a case of the new process jitters on PTWA on a mass scale. Or simply its a bad ring specification.

Earico, what kind of power can those GT-Rs typically handle before sleeves are recommended?

1300 dynojet awhp is very common on the OEM 3.8 spray in bores for a street car that will live a healthy life. Past that the block needs reinforcement due to cylinder bore distortion over time. Hell back years ago when Omega beat UGR at the T1 Invitational they were running a reinforced OEM 3.8 to the tune of 2000+ awhp. They admitted though that it wouldn't last long at that power level based on their past experience. That's exactly when they had started their billet block design.

 

[mysticsvt]

Timing sets in the 2.7 are falling apart. Couple friends are master techs. I won't touch it. Nor do I think the 3.5 is a long term 200k+ mile motor. Way too complicated, and it's inevitable that I'd need to put turbo seals in it/replace 600 vacuum/oil/coolant lines.

Well I pray I'll be ok.

 

[03Sssnake]

Good example of a guy just having his 5.0 motor replaced. Shows up to pick it up, and it's rattling. Now he's locked in lemon law.

WWYD? First Month Engine Trouble - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans

This happened in the last few weeks. Doesn't give me much confidence in fixing it.

Understandable, but you are worrying about shit that might happen. I wouldn’t get worked up about shit I can’t control. If that does happen you have pretty solid ground at that point for a buyback.

 

[RedVenom48]

1300 dynojet awhp is very common on the OEM 3.8 spray in bores for a street car that will live a healthy life. Past that the block needs reinforcement due to cylinder bore distortion over time. Hell back years ago when Omega beat UGR at the T1 Invitational they were running a reinforced OEM 3.8 to the tune of 2000+ awhp. They admitted though that it wouldn't last long at that power level based on their past experience. That's exactly when they had started their billet block design.

Honestly, 1300 on the PTWA liners is bonkers!

So, projected out each cylinder can handle about 216hp and torque. Assuming the 2011-2014 GT500s are just as durable (i think they are), thats over 1700 whp that the PTWA can theoretically handle. Ill be shooting for 1200 whp max effort on my build so I should be good. In theory of course.

Theres no reason an N/A stock sub-500 crank hp engine should have issue with the PTWA liners.

 

[BlksvtCobra01]

Sorry to hear about your woes OP. That said you’re letting your emotions get the best of you. That’s why newer vehicles have warranties. Sounds like your getting taken care of yeah it can be an inconvenience but Ford is making it right.

You’re getting a loaner when it does go in. I’d have them fix it if another issue arises your under warranty. If your new motor has the same issue you could start the lemon process. Anything can have issues a friend of mine has a 2018 Taco that had to have the engine pulled at 500 miles. The cam tower was leaking. He wasn’t happy Toyota did give him a 7 year 100k mile warranty after that. Now his transmission hunts for gears and they won’t perform the tsb. He probably won’t but a Toyota again.

Case in point don’t let your emotions get the best of you and give Ford the opportunity to make this right. The coyote is a great motor.


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[03cobra#694]

Well I pray I'll be ok.

That was the older versions. We have a few older 2.7’s with over 70k that aren’t maintained well that are just fine. Mines a 2.7 and does not use a touch of oil and zero noise at 8500.

 

[BlksvtCobra01]

That was the older versions. We have a few older 2.7’s with over 70k that aren’t maintained well that are just fine. Mines a 2.7 and does not use a touch of oil and zero noise at 8500.

Hell one on F150 forums has over 200k Miles a 2.7. You can’t buy into all the horror stories I realize the 2.7 had a bad batch, 3.5 with cam phasers so did the 5.4L 3V. Now the 18 coyotes not all are bad. You have a warranty for a reason and they’re making it right.

Am I right @13COBRA


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