Does anyone here work for FORD and...

[miclightning]

can answer this question?

Thinking of buying a 13' or 14' F150 with the ecoboost and I want to put the livernois tune in it.

If something happened could i return the vehicle to stock before going back in the shop? Or can a ford tech/rep see that the ECU was flashed?

Thanks

- Sean

 

[boost4me]

I don't work for Ford, but I have done reverse engineering of hardware and forensics.

I don't think there is any reasonable way they could ever prove that you flashed it. As sophisticated as a cars computer is, its really not THAT sophisticated in the realm of computing power and technology. From what I understand its all just garbage 1990's EPROM memory as opposed to flash memory or a spinning disk drive.

now that's not to say its not possible... if I were designing a cars computer and I was told that part of the requirements were to build in some sort of tamper detection, then I would probably create some sort of side program/memory that keeps tracks of flashes to the computer independent of the tune file itself. Chances are this is probably cost prohibitive and folks like SCT and Diablo would easily discover it and just alter that as well.

Its just like jail breaks on iPhones... its a cat and mouse game. The fact is when you have physical access to the hardware (in this case the cars computer) there is no security. Unless you encrypted everything, but this isn't a military application.

When you pull the original factory tune, your pulling an image of the EPROM's memory. Livernois installs a patched version of the original that changes certain parameters in the tune. When you put the original tune back your writing the entire binary block image back so in theory there is really nothing there that would leave evidence that it was tampered with.

Back in the day when we used chips that plugged into the computer, they used to put a tamper proof glue on the computers interface so that they could tell if you plugged a chip into it, but nowadays their is no way to tell when you flashed it.

Anyway I know that wasn't exactly the answer you were looking for from a Ford Engineer or tech, but it should give you some piece of mind.

Hopefully someone that knows exactly how it works will chime in. SCT, Diablo, or Livernois would be best suited to answer this as they have done the actual reverse engineering of the cars computer. They probably know more than ford does about their own junk. Don't forget large corporations like Ford subcontract a lot of stuff out. So theirs a good chance that ford is just given hardware that meets X requirements and a piece of software to write to it. I bet they don't even know how it works.

 

[ford20]

I think the point he is trying to get at is that with the Copperhead PCM everytime you flash it, it leaves a counter of some sort on it so anytime a tech goes to check the computer they will see that someone has been in the computer. I wish I knew the answer though but as a shot in the dark I would say yes they can tell.

 

[Kiohtee]

I'm 99% sure they can tell.

 

[stang1971]

the ecu counts key turns....basically if you had a truck for say 8 months and brought it in for warranty work and the ecu only showed 10 key turns in 8 months.. Its gonna throw up red flags.

 

[boost4me]

Ah interesting... so like I said... if all these guys making tuning apps can figure out how to re-write the tune, why can't they clear out or restore the flash counter?

 

[ElscottHavoc]

I asked this question about our Focus awhile back and someone said that a vehicle they used to own (a Cadillac I think) was equipped with a computer that kept track of if any computer settings had been modified and when, so it was very possible that it'd be standard procedure or feature of a new car.

So with that said, the technology is definitely there, but I'm not necessarily sure what vehicles it is being implemented on and to what degree techs are looking into it. I mean, if you bring a vehicle in with some fairly minor warranty work needed it might not throw any red flag, but say you're having an issue with the catalytic converters or something fuel or internal engine (blown engines) related and the techs seem to think there might be something fishy going on, then they may very well (if they have access to it) check to see if the engine tune has ever been modified.

I'm not sure what amount of information about the modifications they may or may not have access to, but the very knowledge of seeing that a car's computer has been modified by a 3rd party tuner could very likely be enough to void the warranty, even if nothing serious was actually changed. My guess is that the tech would only be able to access a log of activity, and not necessary any specific information about that activity.

 

[boost4me]

I asked this question about our Focus awhile back and someone said that a vehicle they used to own (a Cadillac I think) was equipped with a computer that kept track of if any computer settings had been modified and when, so it was very possible that it'd be standard procedure or feature of a new car.

So with that said, the technology is definitely there, but I'm not necessarily sure what vehicles it is being implemented on and to what degree techs are looking into it. I mean, if you bring a vehicle in with some fairly minor warranty work needed it might not throw any red flag, but say you're having an issue with the catalytic converters or something fuel or internal engine related and the techs seem to think there might be something fishy going on, then they may very well (if they have access to it) check to see if the engine tune has ever been modified.

I'm not sure what amount of information about the modifications they may or may not have access to, but the very knowledge of seeing that a car's computer has been modified by a 3rd party tuner could very likely be enough to void the warranty, even if nothing serious was actually changed. My guess is that the tech would only be able to access a log of activity, and not necessary any specific information about that activity.

right, but once again... if you can modify the tune, whats to say you can't modify the security mechanism that is tracking modifications to the tune?

No offense BTW... just playing devils advocate... I think these guys overstate their capabilities sometimes and don't look at the BIG picture from a true hackers perspective.

 

[ElscottHavoc]

Oh no offense taken. Lol.

You're correct, but then you're average Joe looking toupload a boxed tune from a handheld iisn't going to know how to do that and I'm not certain that Diablosport, Cobb, SCT, or any other company is doing that either. Its not so much a matter of if these tuning companies can reverse engineer that aspect of it, but rather if they can are they including it as a feature? It'd probably be in their best interest to if they can I would think.

But then again, what if they can't? What if these certain aspects of the software (logging alterations) are designed to be essentially impossible to reverse engineer? Didn't the GTR have difficulties in being reverse engineered for tuners because Nissan had some crafty encryption or something designed to make tampering by the aftermarket nearly impossible.

I don't what the answer is for sure in this case, all I know is the tech is there. The only people who would know for sure are the people that engineered the tuner. They'll know better than Ford technicians.

Posted via Topify on Android

 

[thomas91169]

Nope. And they wouldn't look for it unless they had reasonable cause to want to use it against you (ie you're trying to get your third new motor covered under warranty). Otherwise a tech isn't going to check even if he can. The most up imagine they can see, like stated, is keystarts, but those wouldn't stay after the ecu loses power so you could just say you drained the battery accidentally.

 

[oldmodman]

Go to junkyard.

Buy replacement computer.

Install tunes in it.

Leave your original computer alone.

 

[boost4me]

Go to junkyard.

Buy replacement computer.

Install tunes in it.

Leave your original computer alone.

Nice simple solution... although finding a new model in a junk yard will be tough. I wonder how much the PCM costs from ford.

 

[ibleedblue65]

It can be seen that the computer has been flashed but not by what. It could be a flash at a dealer, independent, or a tuner.

 

[SecondhandSnake]

Not specific to Ford ECUs, but I know some others have a flash count on them, and to my knowledge, none of the existing programmers overwrite this, so any discrepancy in flash counts would be obvious to the service department.

 

[miclightning]

lol jesus. so many variables but yet no ford tech yet?

the key turn count is interesting, and makes sense if you bring a vehicle in with 15,000 and it has 2 key turns.

but if the battery drains fully and it erases its memory... pretty good argument point.

now about the flash counter, possible it does exist in it, but once again, seems no way to track flashed with what?

keep this discussion going, very curios. would love to hear from a ford tech for sure

 

[2001GTTT]

Yes they can tell. End of story.