Engine Reliability for Road Racing

[SeikenFreak]

Hello (jump to bottom for questions)

Relatively new here and to the Mustang. I picked up a 2003 Mach 1 a few months ago with roughly 45k miles on it. About 2 weeks after getting it (and 2 days after changing the oil to the factory suggested 5-20) it spun a or some bearings. Its still in the shop being rebuilt.

Fast forward to yesterday. I took my 2005 Subaru STI to my first HPDE event at New Jersey Motorsports Park (Thunderbolt course) and at the end of the fourth and last session of day 1 the motor took a crap. Sounds like a bearing(s). My guess was oil starvation.

Here is a video of part of the run.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlJ_maEvTWc"]YouTube - ‪NJMP Thunderbolt Session 4 Part 2 STI June 30th 2011‬‏[/nomedia]
If anything its just to give you an idea of how I was driving I guess which now doesn't seem like it was such a good idea for the engine. I don't want this to happen again and if it does it better be from some dumb mistake of my own.

Now to jump to the topic at hand. I did search already but didn't find any answers that made me feel more confident. I want to take the Mach to the track. Its being rebuilt stock except for Manley pistons, rods, and valve springs. It'll have full exhaust, an intake, and probably a tune so no crazy power levels here.

Last week I ordered a Canton road race pan and windage tray since I planned on doing this in the near future and it couldn't really be done without the motor being pulled or whatever. I also have the LDC cooling mod to be installed.

My specific concerns are with the motor. What should I get, if anything, on this motor that could be a concern on the track? Oil temp gauge? External oil cooler? Accusump? Larger radiator? Crank pulley? What weight oil do you recommend? I've read and have a haunting feeling about the oil pumps in these. Sounds like they are not all that reliable no matter what brand you get. Also, is it even possible to heel-toe in these cars? The pedal layout/heights seem way off.

 

[Sirl]

WoW!! Very sorry to hear the bad luck here.

You will probably get many opinions, but mine has always been.... "Stock = Reliable" Maybe not so much in your case.

I have a 2000 GT, stock, with the basic bolt ons
headers
cai
throttle body/plenum
Diablo tuner
gears
suspension/brakes

Thats it, the car puts out about 265 at the wheels.

98,000 miles on the clock. I bought it with 85, and track it at least 6-8 weekends a year, and drive it hard.

In your case, if I were building a motor,
Extra oil is always better
Oil cooling is better

The engine in your mach is a pretty stout motor. This was just some bad luck.

Oh, I also use Mobil 1, 5w20.

Good luck, and I 'm glad to see that these motor issues have not scared you away from the hobby.

Hopefully others can answer your more specific questions about the oil pump.

Gauges are always good, but if you lose oil pressure, you've got maybe a couple seconds at best to save the engine, and odds are, your not looking at the gauge at that moment.
I would recommend an oil pressure gauge AND warning light. It will illuminate bright red the moment your oil pressure dips below a preset PSI, like 10 or 20 PSI.
jegs, summit, autometer, they all sell them, pretty cheap.

Good luck man.

 

[gcassidy]

I'll let those with better engineering skill than I address the motor questions.

As for h/t, the bracket that holds the throttle in our mustangs bends fairly easily if you need to accommodate your feet a bit better.
I brought mine over a bit, and roll my foot to the side to catch the throttle with the side of my foot. It soon became second nature. You'll find what works for you.

F-ing clutch pedal is always in the way of left foot braking, though.:cuss:

Good luck with your rebuilds.

 

[wheelhopper]

You had some bad luck, or the motor was not well cared for prior. The mod motors are pretty durable. It sounds to me like you already have a good plan by installing the Canton pan and windage tray. An oil cooler would not be a terrible idea, though it is not necessary.

If you want to do gauges, which are a good idea, an oil pressure, oil temp, and coolant temp are a good to start with.

I would step up the weight of the oil when on track to 5w30. That's just me though.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Hmm ok cool.

The more responses I get like this the better I feel about doing it.

Anyone have any abnormal gauge mounting solutions they use for the track? I'm not a big fan now/grew out of the whole showing off 15 gauges on my pillar deal.. so I like it in a clean and subtle location.

I know Autometer has the cluster bezel pod which is actually what I run in my Impreza but as you said I figured those 3 gauges would be the ones I would need but it can only hold 2. And this car doesn't have like a storage pocket or something on the center console to put gauges in.

Also, and I know I'll get a wave of "DUH! DO IT!" responses but, do sub-frame connectors really make that big of a difference on these cars? Everything everywhere seems to say that these are an absolute must. A friend of mine is in the process of doing I think full length MM weld ins.. and his car has been down and apart for years lol.

 

[95PGTTech]

Glad to see you on here Rich, sorry I did not have time to talk today (moving). I will tomorrow. I agree with your diagnosis of the STi.

Mine are through floors, and the customer builds are the problem, not the time it takes to put FLSFCs in. While they are not an absolute your engine will explode modification to get the car on track, they are every bit as night/day in this wet noodle chassis as you read about. The reasons I went through-floor were I wanted the trade off of even more rigidity in exchange for even more work and very few bolt/weld in subframes work with side exit exhaust.

I would run a factory oil pump with the windage tray as you intended to do. If possible, source one with the SVT stamping.

 

[racebronco2]

Sorry to hear about your engine. When ever you go out open tracking again make sure the oil level is to the top of the full line. Install an oil gauge, that way if you are having an oil pressure issue you will be able to recognize the drop in oil pressure, example: if the oil pressure is always at 60psi cruising and 25 idle and then after a track day the pressure drops from the norm you will know something is wrong. I also installed a low oil pressure light just in case.

Make sure the shop also checks the drivers side intake cam journal surfaces. My experience is when you spin a bearing it usually wipe out the cam bearings.

 

[95PGTTech]

For those that did not view the video, the engine lost was a built motor in his STi. The Mach is his other car and is under rebuild after spinning a bearing (purchased used).

 

[Sirl]

For those that did not view the video, the engine lost was a built motor in his STi. The Mach is his other car and is under rebuild after spinning a bearing (purchased used).

Damn!!! Thats some hard luck right there!!

 

[SeikenFreak]

Yea I was indeed checking the oil level on my STI between each session. All seemed fine.

I went into this being semi-warned by my engine builder that I could have issues with oil control or temps. Unfortunately I under-estimated the issue I guess and having a oil temp gauge, an aftermarket pan setup (which at the time the motor was built nothing was available that would clear my headers, still there may not be one), and some form of oil control to get the oil down from the cylinder heads on this boxer motor may have prevented this engine failure. I did talk to my engine guy today just to give him a heads up. He did say that if it wasn't too bad which it might just be a rod bearing, as they are tiny on these cars, that it might just need a crank which isn't much and maybe a rod. As mentioned the internals and heads are all built and I was running at 15 psi or so (down from the usual 27 psi) so this certainly wasn't a blow based on power breaking things.

You learn from your mistakes though. And this event has certainly adjusted my priorities, perspective, and goals for both cars. But no Chris I am not going to gut the STI and go full track on it, even after getting a ride in a time attack level Evo with my instructor. Which btw was the most insane crap ever. :burnout:

Anyway, I didn't mean to come across like I was ripping on your sub-frame project lol You know me though and I'm not going to settle for just some so-so bolt in setup.. But I can't have the car down for something like weld ins that if its an extensive project. Am I to understand that your "through-floor" connectors are something a step above MM FL weld ins?

I really want to try this Mach on the track. :-D When you going to get that damn yellow thing back on the road anyway? Would kill to have you out there man. Instructor wanted to try and move me up to intermediate on day 2 but we didn't quite make it that far. Also buy a truck and a trailer. K Thx

 

[95PGTTech]

Yea I was indeed checking the oil level on my STI between each session. All seemed fine.

I went into this being semi-warned by my engine builder that I could have issues with oil control or temps. Unfortunately I under-estimated the issue I guess and having a oil temp gauge, an aftermarket pan setup (which at the time the motor was built nothing was available that would clear my headers, still there may not be one), and some form of oil control to get the oil down from the cylinder heads on this boxer motor may have prevented this engine failure. I did talk to my engine guy today just to give him a heads up. He did say that if it wasn't too bad which it might just be a rod bearing, as they are tiny on these cars, that it might just need a crank which isn't much and maybe a rod. As mentioned the internals and heads are all built and I was running at 15 psi or so (down from the usual 27 psi) so this certainly wasn't a blow based on power breaking things.

You learn from your mistakes though. And this event has certainly adjusted my priorities, perspective, and goals for both cars. But no Chris I am not going to gut the STI and go full track on it, even after getting a ride in a time attack level Evo with my instructor. Which btw was the most insane crap ever. :burnout:

Anyway, I didn't mean to come across like I was ripping on your sub-frame project lol You know me though and I'm not going to settle for just some so-so bolt in setup.. But I can't have the car down for something like weld ins that if its an extensive project. Am I to understand that your "through-floor" connectors are something a step above MM FL weld ins?

I really want to try this Mach on the track. :-D When you going to get that damn yellow thing back on the road anyway? Would kill to have you out there man. Instructor wanted to try and move me up to intermediate on day 2 but we didn't quite make it that far. Also buy a truck and a trailer. K Thx

I didn't take it that way. Yes. Bolt ins < weld ins < through floors. Maximum Motorsports makes a very nice set of weld in full length subframe connectors for very good price that I have installed before in about 2 hours.

Julia was asking the same thing. I need to heal this left leg and get some customer cars done.

 

[wheelhopper]

The MM full length frame connectors are a great addition. The Steeda pieces are very nice as well. You should be able to feel the difference imediately after an install. The install should take an hour or so max, by an experienced shop.

I like the guage cluster that holds two guages right where your factory gauges are. A search should turn up what I am talking about. There are also companies that make a gauge pod that replaces your radio and puts 3 or so gauges in that location.

 

[95PGTTech]

Rich - have time to stop by sometime this week? With the leg I am out indefinitely. I have the upper steering shroud pod, the gauge cluster "frog" dual pod, and a billet CNC triple pod that takes up (in a SN95 anyway) the open slot beneath the HVAC controls that is just a small pocket for wallet/glasses/etc. in our cars.

I think the New Edge cars use a double-DIN radio and therefore do not have this area, I think you have the Fog/Traction Control switches in this location but maybe it'll give you a few ideas. My column pod (10004) is listed as 94-04. I did look up that double cluster "frog" pod, and it is different. My year cars has the rear defrost on the left hand side. If I remember right, it may be in Adam's car anyhow.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Stop by your place? Is this a new place? Or Princeton? I dont know exactly where your at but yea I'd like to have a brain storming session. And fill you in on all the details of everything going on.

 

[Sirl]

quick tip when looking for SFC's. IMO, go with either Steeda or MM.
If you decide to go further, with MM parts, like a Torque Arm, you need for the SFC's to be a certain thickness. I had to remove my old ones becuase they werent thick enough.
And, yes, you will feel that the car is much stiffer.

Second, I went with the dual gauge pod on top of my dash.
Its perfect for me.

This is the best pic I can find at the moment.

And, you do NOT have to put holes in the dash. If you move the pod back, all the wires go right down the vents and are completely hidden. The pod itself is held in place with 2 sided foam tape. Been there for a couple years. I've removed and reinstalled it a few times with no issues.

I also have a DIN pod from Florida 5.0 that holds 2 more gauges.
they have some of the best gauge bezels around.

 

[95PGTTech]

Rich - yeah, Princeton. I am going to be there tomorrow 8am-whenever. Don't know about the rest of the week, that's a function of how the leg's feeling.

Sirl - that's a SN95 style center console, I think the one in his Mach is a double din and can't use that style double (or my triple). Mine goes where your equalizer is.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Those replacement gauge clusters from Florida 5.0 look sweeeet. Exactly what I've always wanted to do in a car. But that's a bit overkill right now.

Has anyone ever tried to fit gauges within the spots of the factory ones? EDIT: Nvm that was a semi dumb question after looking at pics of the cluster. I see this Autometer Lunar cluster thing.. but is that just a fancy front overlay? Cause I would love something exactly like that.. Except with fully functioning autometer gauges.

Would love to hear from more people on the engine. More the merrier.

And tomorrow as in Monday? I'm workin from 11 to 5. So whatever works for you.

And got a pic from the event of me. I hope this forum automatically resizes. Thanks to Jesse Simmers (a photographer there).

 

[95PGTTech]

A shame it had to end like that, good looking scoob. No, no automatic resize. Those autometer clusters you saw are full cluster replacements...requiring deletion of the security system, rewiring of the basic cluster indicators (turn, hazard, warnings, etc.) and an otherwise full race setup, sorry.

What are the plans for the STi? You know I'm always game.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Well.. That's pretty much what I spent the entire tow-ride back from the track thinking about. And in general since it happened its been about applying the lessons learned to the Mustang.

But specifically on the subject of the STIs direction now. This will be good for me to mentally organize this and put it down in text. Perhaps I'll save it to a text file.

Things to do now

Reinstall the PWR radiator I still have back in and run a mostly water mixture with some water wetter.

Adjust the coil overs with corner weighting involved hopefully. At least raise the rear but for some reason the one rear side sags lower. Also related to the coil overs is to find out exactly what the heck settings its at for bump and rebound. It may have been on max soft this whole time.

Roll the fenders.

I'm considering removing the A/C to de-clutter the engine bay and help with airflow. I hardly use it cause it makes me nervous with that ECU issue I had that may have had nothing to do with it but who knows. And even when I do use it its annoying feeling the power being sucked from it every time it kicks on and off and having to throttle it more or less. The Mustang will retain it's A/C (if it even works cause I don't think I ever tested it in the week I was able to drive it)

I want some sort of a oil pan on the car now. Whether thats a Cosworth or Moroso or maybe a custom pan. I want to know more details about having pumps put in to suck the oil from the valve covers back down to the pan. Maybe an Accusump if a pan won't work.

I want an Oil Temp gauge.

I want to manage the engine power with whats already on the vehicle other then maybe switching out the turbo. Running on full boost was rough. I can't say for sure if it was entirely too much to manage because I only had it in my first session with a lack of confidence and knowledge of the pace and that session was pure traffic jam. The main issue with it was the lack of smooth throttle control with that much boost. Its a characteristic of turbo cars I guess but specifically the on/off throttle transitions were very rough.

I'd guess whp was around 350-400 at the 15 psi setting based on the previous 30R build with no internal engine work etc. While I am not looking to just drastically hack my HP number in half, I just want to balance it out more. I'm unsure if I should switch back to something like a GT30R but with a 82 A/R now so that I don't have the ridiculous power fall off it used to have.. or just run the current 35R way below its efficiency range. I want to be able to adjust it to say 350-450 at the wheels at my choosing. Right now I'm not sure the boost controller works properly when using the low setting. No matter how you adjust it within the setting it doesn't affect the boost. It is just somehow limiting it at 15psi.

I'm not sure where the Aquamist fits into this. Its not hooked up now. I'm not sure if it can help manage any of this in any way. And it's still only hooked up to the little factory intercooler sprayer tank. These are details I wanted to talk with the shop about.

The clutch was a little rough sometimes but that I can kind of work on myself and not much we can do at these power levels. That will stay as is. The transmission itself shifted wonderfully for the duration of the event and gearing felt good for my current level of speed. This is one area I'm fearing for the Mach. It felt crusty enough on the street. Hopefully the Redline fluid will remedy that.

__________________________________

I had zero issues with the brakes. After the initial run they felt a little spongy but never changed other then that. Never felt any obvious fade and I was able to quickly react and get on the brakes and slow down enough whenever there was an issue in front of me. The current brake setup is beyond my ability for now. Thanks for the help installing the lines and bleeding them.

The tires held up fine. I was expecting chunks to be missing by the end of the first session but at the end of the day they looked the same as when I brought them. No apparent sliding around (except the one slide in the video from a too quick weight transfer in that chicane), understeering (except for over speeding an entry), or massive screeching so the tires are beyond my ability for now.

Fuel was not an issue. I was expecting this thing to go through a tank in one session but it did not. I could get about 2 sessions at low boost with a half a tank of gas.

Thank god I put seats in this thing. Seats feel like a must have item for this type of stuff now. This is another area of concern for the Mustang but it'll have to wait.


During the discussion with my engine guy he asked if I would be able to pull the engine at home and bring it to him so it would be much easier for him to manage it. *cough* Thats where you come in Chris. Unfortunately you are not much use to me with a busted leg lol. And I'm not even sure I'd be up to it. Or if theres a place to do it. But then again I've been complaining how long it takes these damn shops to get anything done. But this was something to discuss in person.

I'll edit if I think of other stuff.

 

[95PGTTech]

We'll discuss this or later this week sometime, but I think with your current level of track experience and where you want to go with both cars, I think it's time for you to start taking the reins on both cars again. You can build them exactly to your desires, and you'll be able to fix/tune/modify at events as you'll have the tools and the skills.