Engine Reliability for Road Racing

[David Hester]

Adjust the coil overs with corner weighting involved hopefully. At least raise the rear but for some reason the one rear side sags lower. Also related to the coil overs is to find out exactly what the heck settings its at for bump and rebound. It may have been on max soft this whole time.

When adjusting coilovers, don't assume things are right just because it "looks" level. Weighing the corners is the only way to be sure. You want diagonals to be as close as possible. That may mean you have 712 on left front and 752 on right front, so be it. If diagonals are close with fuel and you in the seat, that's where it needs to be. I had an American Sedan car that never sat "level" even when corner weights were right on.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Well.. That's pretty much what I spent the entire tow-ride back from the track thinking about. And in general since it happened its been about applying the lessons learned to the Mustang.

But specifically on the subject of the STIs direction now. This will be good for me to mentally organize this and put it down in text. Perhaps I'll save it to a text file.

Things to do now

Reinstall the PWR radiator I still have back in and run a mostly water mixture with some water wetter.

Adjust the coil overs with corner weighting involved hopefully. At least raise the rear but for some reason the one rear side sags lower. Also related to the coil overs is to find out exactly what the heck settings its at for bump and rebound. It may have been on max soft this whole time.

Roll the fenders.

I'm considering removing the A/C to de-clutter the engine bay and help with airflow. I hardly use it cause it makes me nervous with that ECU issue I had that may have had nothing to do with it but who knows. And even when I do use it its annoying feeling the power being sucked from it every time it kicks on and off and having to throttle it more or less. The Mustang will retain it's A/C (if it even works cause I don't think I ever tested it in the week I was able to drive it)

I want some sort of a oil pan on the car now. Whether thats a Cosworth or Moroso or maybe a custom pan. I want to know more details about having pumps put in to suck the oil from the valve covers back down to the pan. Maybe an Accusump if a pan won't work.

I want an Oil Temp gauge.

I want to manage the engine power with whats already on the vehicle other then maybe switching out the turbo. Running on full boost was rough. I can't say for sure if it was entirely too much to manage because I only had it in my first session with a lack of confidence and knowledge of the pace and that session was pure traffic jam. The main issue with it was the lack of smooth throttle control with that much boost. Its a characteristic of turbo cars I guess but specifically the on/off throttle transitions were very rough.

I'd guess whp was around 350-400 at the 15 psi setting based on the previous 30R build with no internal engine work etc. While I am not looking to just drastically hack my HP number in half, I just want to balance it out more. I'm unsure if I should switch back to something like a GT30R but with a 82 A/R now so that I don't have the ridiculous power fall off it used to have.. or just run the current 35R way below its efficiency range. I want to be able to adjust it to say 350-450 at the wheels at my choosing. Right now I'm not sure the boost controller works properly when using the low setting. No matter how you adjust it within the setting it doesn't affect the boost. It is just somehow limiting it at 15psi.

I'm not sure where the Aquamist fits into this. Its not hooked up now. I'm not sure if it can help manage any of this in any way. And it's still only hooked up to the little factory intercooler sprayer tank. These are details I wanted to talk with the shop about.

The clutch was a little rough sometimes but that I can kind of work on myself and not much we can do at these power levels. That will stay as is. The transmission itself shifted wonderfully for the duration of the event and gearing felt good for my current level of speed. This is one area I'm fearing for the Mach. It felt crusty enough on the street. Hopefully the Redline fluid will remedy that.

__________________________________

I had zero issues with the brakes. After the initial run they felt a little spongy but never changed other then that. Never felt any obvious fade and I was able to quickly react and get on the brakes and slow down enough whenever there was an issue in front of me. The current brake setup is beyond my ability for now. Thanks for the help installing the lines and bleeding them.

The tires held up fine. I was expecting chunks to be missing by the end of the first session but at the end of the day they looked the same as when I brought them. No apparent sliding around (except the one slide in the video from a too quick weight transfer in that chicane), understeering (except for over speeding an entry), or massive screeching so the tires are beyond my ability for now.

Fuel was not an issue. I was expecting this thing to go through a tank in one session but it did not. I could get about 2 sessions at low boost with a half a tank of gas.

Thank god I put seats in this thing. Seats feel like a must have item for this type of stuff now. This is another area of concern for the Mustang but it'll have to wait.


During the discussion with my engine guy he asked if I would be able to pull the engine at home and bring it to him so it would be much easier for him to manage it. *cough* Thats where you come in Chris. Unfortunately you are not much use to me with a busted leg lol. And I'm not even sure I'd be up to it. Or if theres a place to do it. But then again I've been complaining how long it takes these damn shops to get anything done. But this was something to discuss in person.

I'll edit if I think of other stuff.

Were you running an extra quart of oil in the engine? Did you put any oil in throughout the day? A Subaru (or most any turbo car) will burn through an alarming amount of oil at a track event. If you aren't running an extra quart in the engine at minimum at the start of the day, you are asking for trouble.

You need a dedicated oil cooler. Also oil temp, oil pressure and water temp gauges. A larger radiator won't really help cool the car much. If you already have it, that is fine but don't go out and buy one.

It sounds like your car has boost related problems, which also means it has tuning problems. Fix your boost control issue, and get a conservative tune with moderate AFRs and moderate timing for the track. I would not even deal with the aquamist for track use. If you use it as a tuning crutch and the system fails on the track you will burn up another engine.

The gt35 is probably too big for what you are doing with the car on track, but it will work ok. Again the driving characteristics you are describing sound like boost control and tuning issues.

 

[SeikenFreak]

K thanks for the info.

Definitely going to look into an oil cooler and oil temp gauge for the car. Already have an oil pressure.

I do believe there is roughness in the tune so I have to talk to the tuner and see if this is something he can do or need to find someone more experienced with open tracking a turbo car. My instructor actually said that he knew someone who was very good with Subarus. But who knows if thats just in general. The guy who makes my ECU actually runs a time attack Subaru so could definitely try to get info from that direction.

As I said the oil level appeared fine through the day. Even at the end of the day the oil was still above the full mark from the looks of it. I can't say I specifically put in an extra qt though.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

K thanks for the info.

Definitely going to look into an oil cooler and oil temp gauge for the car. Already have an oil pressure.

I do believe there is roughness in the tune so I have to talk to the tuner and see if this is something he can do or need to find someone more experienced with open tracking a turbo car. My instructor actually said that he knew someone who was very good with Subarus. But who knows if thats just in general. The guy who makes my ECU actually runs a time attack Subaru so could definitely try to get info from that direction.

As I said the oil level appeared fine through the day. Even at the end of the day the oil was still above the full mark from the looks of it. I can't say I specifically put in an extra qt though.

So you are running a Hydra in the car? What boost controller are you running?

 

[SeikenFreak]

A Greddy Profec B Spec 2 I believe. And yes its a Hydra 2.6 I actually saw him running the car at a time attack event at NJMP a few years ago I think.

Just got done pulling the A/C.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Well I have been bouncing some emails back and forth with Phil from Element Tuning. I am grateful he's taking the time to answer some of my questions. They run a $3500 dry sump system in their car. :bored:

Also doing more research around the net, pricing things out, and looking at options.

An idea I did not think about that was mentioned by Crawford Performance and Phil agreed with was to either remove or run a reverse hood scoop. The current/factory hood scoop setups create a high pressure area in the engine bay and reduce airflow through the front end of the car. It can also create lift/understeer at higher speeds. So this is another area that will require an adjustment. Apparently going scoopless makes for much better cooling temps.

I pulled the A/C out of the car last night and just test fitted the larger radiator. Unfortunately the fan assembly is now hitting the header :bored:. Need to figure out how to adjust this.

Options for an External Oil Cooler are either get a kit like Mocal and roughly figure it out ourselves (around $400-500) or Greddy makes a kit thats already put together and comes with brackets and such to mount it ($850 :bored Problem I'll likely run into with that is it might not have room to mount where ever that is with all the stuff I have on the car.

I did find a Oil Pan + Windage tray setup that will fit my headers from Killer B Motorsports ($700 :bored

 

[95PGTTech]

Rich - I'm sure you've heard this 1000x from me, but your tune sucks. To me, with the money you have in the car it should run like stock except when you hit the loud pedal...no hesitations, no surges, no bucks, no breaking up, no nothing except glory from idle to redline under any conditions. You should be able to put that bitch on the bottom of the Atlantic and it should purr like a kitten at idle with the A/C on and stereo blasting...

I have the tools to do braided/pushlock lines, if you'd like to just find an aftermarket -AN cooler and -AN sandwich plate (sounds like the Mocal).

On another topic, anyone with any comments of how to prevent this from happening to the Mach? I suggested he really needs no oil cooling or coolant cooling modifications on a near-stock Mach, just a good set of gauges. That's really the point of the thread.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

Rich - I'm sure you've heard this 1000x from me, but your tune sucks. To me, with the money you have in the car it should run like stock except when you hit the loud pedal...no hesitations, no surges, no bucks, no breaking up, no nothing except glory from idle to redline under any conditions. You should be able to put that bitch on the bottom of the Atlantic and it should purr like a kitten at idle with the A/C on and stereo blasting...

I have the tools to do braided/pushlock lines, if you'd like to just find an aftermarket -AN cooler and -AN sandwich plate (sounds like the Mocal).

On another topic, anyone with any comments of how to prevent this from happening to the Mach? I suggested he really needs no oil cooling or coolant cooling modifications on a near-stock Mach, just a good set of gauges. That's really the point of the thread.

For the Mach he will need gauges and an external oil cooler. Boxing the radiator in will help too. Cooling an NA car is much easier than a FI car.

 

[SeikenFreak]

So is that the general consensus on a N/A mustang oil cooler? Seemed like people earlier in the thread said it was not a must. But I'll do one on it if its needed.

And yes kinda derailed my own thread. But the STI did run like stock and wasn't a problem until this event. Your just a grumpy old man Chris.

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

So is that the general consensus on a N/A mustang oil cooler? Seemed like people earlier in the thread said it was not a must. But I'll do one on it if its needed.

And yes kinda derailed my own thread. But the STI did run like stock and wasn't a problem until this event. Your just a grumpy old man Chris.

Nothing is a "Must". It all depends on what tires you are planning to run, how hard you want to push the car, and what types of tracks and conditions you plan to run. The best thing to do is to start on street tires with some gauges, learn the car and see what it needs from there.

Stickier tires will make everything work harder, the engine, brakes, cooling system, oiling system, etc.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Yea I'm just running street tires. Don't think the organizations let people at my skill level run slicks.

And I plan to drive it "hard" I guess. Not putzing around. Courses for now are NJMP's thunderbolt and lightning.

 

[Sirl]

The Organization can dictate what tires you can or cant run?? hmm,... never heard of that.

 

[SeikenFreak]

At least that's how it was with the HPDE I just ran which was hosted by Trackdaze. They run a very well organized event.

I think novice and intermediate groups arnt allowed to run slicks.

 

[DevilSun]

I think that with the Canton RR pan (which I think you can fill to 8 or 8.5qts) you'll have lots of oil all the time due to the baffling and trap doors. At that point, the Accusump really only comes into play as pre-lube or in case of oil pump failure as normally you're not going to run that pan dry or corner hard enough (especially on street tires) to starve the pump. That being said, with the Accusump making up for a failed oil pump, it's only a matter of seconds before that's drained too and won't technically save you from anything (unless you wire a light or something to know it's on) because when it's empty you're in the same boat as a failed oil pump without the Accusump. Accusump works well for prevention in cars that have oil starvation problems in heavy cornering or high banks which usually these engines don't have when using the Canton pan you speak of.

That being said, if you "truly" want to protect your engine from an oil failure that is pressure related...the only real way that I know of is to run a hobbes switch with a start override. The purpose here is that once the car is running, you take the override off so that the Hobbes switch is actually supplying power to the fuel pumps instead of the ignition ... and as long as the oil pressure is above the Hobbes switch point, the fuel pumps will continue to be powered but as soon as oil pressure hits/drops far enough, the Hobbes switch will no longer power the fuel pumps causing the engine to shut off (which will save your engine but there are serious potential side effects with this) since the car is no longer running. To me, this is a natural extension of the warning light only but is pretty hardcore and the side effects need to be considered.

 

[SeikenFreak]

Excellent reply

 

[95PGTTech]

I think that with the Canton RR pan (which I think you can fill to 8 or 8.5qts) you'll have lots of oil all the time due to the baffling and trap doors. At that point, the Accusump really only comes into play as pre-lube or in case of oil pump failure as normally you're not going to run that pan dry or corner hard enough (especially on street tires) to starve the pump. That being said, with the Accusump making up for a failed oil pump, it's only a matter of seconds before that's drained too and won't technically save you from anything (unless you wire a light or something to know it's on) because when it's empty you're in the same boat as a failed oil pump without the Accusump. Accusump works well for prevention in cars that have oil starvation problems in heavy cornering or high banks which usually these engines don't have when using the Canton pan you speak of.

That being said, if you "truly" want to protect your engine from an oil failure that is pressure related...the only real way that I know of is to run a hobbes switch with a start override. The purpose here is that once the car is running, you take the override off so that the Hobbes switch is actually supplying power to the fuel pumps instead of the ignition ... and as long as the oil pressure is above the Hobbes switch point, the fuel pumps will continue to be powered but as soon as oil pressure hits/drops far enough, the Hobbes switch will no longer power the fuel pumps causing the engine to shut off (which will save your engine but there are serious potential side effects with this) since the car is no longer running. To me, this is a natural extension of the warning light only but is pretty hardcore and the side effects need to be considered.

While I appreciate your input to my friend's thread, I would never, under any circumstances, recommend that a car on-track have any sort of device installed to cut engine power that isn't directly controlled by the driver. By the time the oil pressure drops to the point the Hobbes notices, the milliseconds it takes to cut electrical power to the pump, then what's left in the lines and rails/injectors to run dry and make the engine stumble and die...it's well gone by then. Having a vehicle system cut engine power other than the driver directly executing it could have potentially fatal consequences.

 

[DevilSun]

Fair enough, and while I understand you might not like the idea, it's not all that uncommon either...especially for cars that have manual steering and manual brakes. It's just another avenue, and it can be done other ways as well. It takes the human error/response factor out of it, which can and usually is longer than the electrical delay but as I very clearly stated it is hardcore and does have very serious side effects. I'm glad I didn't force him to do it that way :lol1:

P.S. - The hobbes switch scenario was told to me by two separate people when I asked about the same potential, an engine builder and a long time racer. Maybe they're old school or just crazy, but I was just passing on the info. I myself have no implemented it and feel I adequately warned and implied of the potential side effects. I also feel that blowing a tire at top speed can have potential fatal consequences but I still run balls out when possible :beer: All in good fun though

 

[95PGTTech]

Fair enough, and while I understand you might not like the idea, it's not all that uncommon either...especially for cars that have manual steering and manual brakes. It's just another avenue, and it can be done other ways as well. It takes the human error/response factor out of it, which can and usually is longer than the electrical delay but as I very clearly stated it is hardcore and does have very serious side effects. I'm glad I didn't force him to do it that way :lol1:

P.S. - The hobbes switch scenario was told to me by two separate people when I asked about the same potential, an engine builder and a long time racer. Maybe they're old school or just crazy, but I was just passing on the info. I myself have no implemented it and feel I adequately warned and implied of the potential side effects. I also feel that blowing a tire at top speed can have potential fatal consequences but I still run balls out when possible :beer: All in good fun though

His car does not have manual steering or manual brakes.

 

[DevilSun]

His car does not have manual steering or manual brakes.

Yes, but even still our steering and brakes still will work with the engine not running when the key is in the on position. Not to mention, if the engine goes POP it will shut itself off, I know this first hand knowledge...while entering a corner on a road course. It was scary but it wasn't the end of the world, and I didn't give up.

 

[SeikenFreak]

I knew he wasn't really implying I should run that

Do you have the engine hoist Chris? I'm contemplating if I can pull the motor at my place.

Id love for the car to be here in the garage to work on whenever I want.